GOTM 35: First Spoiler (End of Ancient Age)

Classic GOTM 35 first spoiler: End Of Ancient Age.

This will be the first spoiler for GOTM 35: Ottomans.

To qualify, you must:

1. Be researching a middle-age tech.
2. Have contacts with all civilizations on the starting continent.
3. Have a full map of the main part of the starting continent.

It is possible that you have contact with more civs than those on the stargin continent. Feel free to post about them, but please don't post screenshots of where they came from - ie => restrict screenshots to the starting continent ONLY.

So how did you proceed? Were you Scientific or Militaristic? Or crashing randomly when meeting a particular civ

The ancient age was very peaceful (if you exclude barbs). I did not feel like taking on the UU of Carthage and Zulu early on, and decided to go for Military Tradition before waging war. Also, that will allow me to test out the Sipahi...

Note that in 800BC, while still researching Literature, I begged the great-god-of-the-games ainwood to make me Scientific instead of Militaristic. This he did, instantly btw. Many thanks to him.

Barbarians were numerous, but only a minor nuisance. For a moment there I was glad I went for open class, I think the extra barb attack bonus did not make me loose a single unit to barbs and did not slow me down. They pillaged empty cities a couple of times and they made me invest more in early warriors than I normally would. Actually these early warriors were more or less the only defenders I ever built. Never upgraded.

My research plans included Pottery and then directly for Republic. In the GOTM/COTMs I have played so far I have been very protective about my new technologies, but this was about to change. Since I was going for Military Tradition ASAP, I traded or granted all my techs instantly to avoid double research. I had a certain luck with this approach, not so much for them actually researching much on their own, but giving them Republic early on made them at least richer and so they had more money to go give me GPT deals and hence boost my own research.


Situation in 1000BC:
13 cities (34 citizens)
4 settlers
10 workers
25 warriors
4 granaries
300 gold



Missing Republic (10 turns), Mathematics, Construction, Currency, Literature, Polytheism, Monarchy

Going into Middle Ages around 370BC. Guess that could have been earlier. I probably have some thinking to do in order to optimize early management of the science/lux sliders. Free tech is Engineering (yippie). I grant the ****** (another scientific civ) access to the Middle Ages, but unfortunately they get Engineering as well. I could have saved my 8 turns for Feudalism if I had been lucky there.

Strategy for Middle Ages is to research Military Tradition as soon as possible. Until then build libraries / marketplaces / barracks + horsemen to wait for upgrade.

I wasn't able to expand as fast as I would have liked in this, my first Monarch game, so I ended up with a handful of little colonies in my coast. In time, I was able to either flip or conquer these without too much trouble, so they didn't slow me down too much in the great scheme of things.

Things being pretty peaceful in the early going, I built a medium military, built libraries, and headed for the Military Tradition. Got some flips from the Carthaginians as the culture from the libraries kicked in, which was a nice bonus.

I was almost ready to start pumping out Sipahi to rule the world when -- HEY!! WHERE ARE THE HORSIES?!? As it turned out, they were deviously located just on the other side of the Carthaginian border. Well, I was able to nestle up a city right next to the pasture, rush-build every cultural building available, and finally get the horse square into my territory the turn after reaching Military Tradition.

After that, the Carthaginians had a rough time.

good game, which u best of lucks

Open

Goal – Domination with mass Sipahi. May change.

4000BC – Move Settler E.
3950BC – Settle Sogut and discover we have two wheats to use. Plan settler pump. Start researching The Wheel at minimum.
3700BC – Send Warrior 1 SW into mountains.
3500BC – Send Warrior 2 East.
3350BC – Send Warrior 3 South.
3000BC – Pliny compiles a list of the most advanced civs, and we are at the bottom. Woohoo!
2800BC – Meet Carthage.
2750BC – Found Iznik on Silks.
2550BC – Meet Zulus. Trade Mas and 64G for Pottery, CB and WC.
2350BC – Found Uskudar between wheat and ivory to the east.
2110BC – Give Hannibal CB, Pottery and 32g for Alphabet and The Wheel. Give Shaka Alphabet and 87g for IW. Start Research on Writing at Max.

For the next few turns, the barbs are a nuisance. They kill two of my workers and countless warriors, severely hampering my expansion. I’m just glad they didn’t kill any of my settlers.

1675BC – Izmit Found.
1600BC – Link up ivory.
1575BC – Learn Writing.
1525BC – Aydin Found near the Iron and Gold to the south.
1475BC – Antalya Found.
1375BC – Bursa Found.
1250BC – Learn CoL. Trade it to Shaka for HBR, his World Map and 24g. Edine Found.
1200BC – Apparently, the English have built a Colossus. Istanbul Found.
1075BC – Learn Philosophy. See Red Borders close to mine but cannot make contact.
1000BC – Found Adana.

QSC Stats – 11 cities, 27 pop, 4 workers, 11 warriors, 3 archers, 8 spears.

At this point, the Ottomans experience a change in national identity, and where the Ottomans were once Militaristic, they are now Scientific.

975BC – The Zulus build the Pyramids.
800BC – Sinop Found.
775BC – Link Horses.
730BC – The Greeks build the Oracle.
690BC – Give Hannibal CoL for Mysticism, MapMaking and 70g.
650BC – A swordsman bearing the flag of Arabia comes into view. We say howdy.
630BC – The English complete Great Lighthouse. Davidople Found.
590BC – Alexmanika Found. Emanopidu Found.
430BC – Link Iron.
390BC – Meet Liz. We give her Arab contact for contact with the French, Maths and 10g. Meet Joan, we give her Arab contact +42g in exchange for Polytheism. Meet Radnar and give Arab Contact for his Map. Give the Arabs contact with Shaka for his World Map and 6g.

Nobody knows about the Carthaginians, so they’re as good a bunch as any to start with.

Otto-Carthaginian War (part 1)

370BC – Declare war on Carthage. Meet the Greeks.
290BC – Raze Utica.
230BC – Raze Cirta.
190BC – Raze Oea. Learn Republic.
170BC – Give Arabs The Republic for Construction and their Map.
150BC – Give French the Republic for Monarchy. Give Zulus The Republic for Lit.
130BC – Found Ankara. Raze Cadiz.
110BC - Raze Leptis Minor.
70BC – Capture Theveste.
30BC – Found Salonika. Zulus build the Great Wall.
10AD – Learn Currency and enter the Middle Ages. Get Engineering as a freebie.

The war has progressed well and as I enter the Middle Ages, I have a stack of roughly 8 swords, 5 horses, and 5 catapults moving towards Carthage. It should be over soon. My long-term plan is to get chivalry and hopefully wipe away the Zulu with little bother, then beeline for MilTrad and then probably make an assault on the other civs with Sipahi. I start mass producing horses ready for upgrade to knights.

Modified Minimap at 10AD to hide the modesty of overseas civs.

1.27

Opening Decisions
Domination will be my most likely goal for this game, as I just did a space and 20k, and I don’t feel like going through all the achingly long modern-age turns again.

I started off by taking a screenshot of the start location and blowing it up to see what might be hiding under the fog (I can never see anything in the start pic that is posted in the game thread, but I usually can when I am in the game). Just as the fog-gazers had predicted, I could see dyes on the forest tile S,S,SW, wheat on the plain SE,SE,S, and possibly another grassland wheat E, SE, SE.

I decided to do something unusual (for me) and settle on the SE Bonus Grass. I did this because I wanted my first city to have access to at least 5 surplus food, but I also didn’t want to mine a grassland wheat. In this location, I could also use all three wheats when needed, and this would come in handy prior to building a granary. Having learned the value of sharing bonus tiles between cities in a prior GOTM, my top priority was to get one or two settlers built before a granary, to maximize use of the irrigated wheats. I decided on a settler for my first build: my exploration (and early trade opportunities) would certainly suffer, but I felt compelled to put all the extra food to use as soon as possible.

My worker’s first action would be to mine a BG, because with all the bonus food, shields were the limiting factor in getting out a settler early. After that he would irrigate and road all the wheat. F10 revealed lots of AIs who knew pottery and alphabet, so I began with research on TW at max.

Expansion
After the first settler, I built a warrior, who discovered ivory and ANOTHER grassland wheat to the east, so my capitol built another settler after the one warrior. I decided on RCP3 due to the terrain and my likely goal being domination. My worker finished the necessary roads just as my first settler was built so it only took one turn to reach his final destination. Iznik was founded in 3300bc. I had to micromanage my two cities very carefully in order to share the wheats efficiently.

I had four cities (and only two warriors!) in 2190 bc, when Sogut finished its granary. After that it built a barracks, because this city would be producing lots of military as well as settlers. Then it built another settler. In 1870 bc, Sogut began its first complete round as a 4-turn warrior/settler factory. This was the first time I ever made a factory that worked quite like this one, so I thought I would post how it worked. It required micromanagement three out of four turns.


The pic above shows the beginning of the cycle. The city is at size 5 and has no shields or food stored. The tiles are worked to maximize shields. The city will make 3 food and 10 shields, building a warrior in one turn. Other cities get to use the grassland wheat tiles on this turn.


This pic shows the second turn in the cycle. The city has completed the warrior and is way behind on food. But since there are three wheats that can be used, this is no problem. The citizens are assigned to work all the wheat tiles. It will make 7 food, the exact amount needed to grow this turn. The build box says the settler will be done in 5 turns and shows the city will get 6 shields, but that isn’t even close to correct. The city will grow this turn, and the new citizen will be placed on the mined hill tile, giving the city two extra shields.


The population is now at 6 and 8 shields are stored. The build box says the settler will be done in 3 turns, but that is still misleading. The citizens are arranged to gain 10 more shields and 5 food.


This is the last turn in the cycle, and the only one that did not require micromanagement. The city will grow this turn, to size 7, and the new citizen will again be placed on the mined hill. That means the city will not make 10 shields, but 12, the exact amount needed to produce the settler. The population drops down to 5 with the production of the settler. Although a granary will empty when a city reaches size seven, this does not happen if the city produces a settler or worker on the same turn that it grows.

All told, Sogut produced 11 settlers and 12 veteran warriors before 1000 bc.

Research, Contact and barbs
My research path was: Wheel, turned research off for about 10 turns, Pottery (because I didn’t meet the Zulu until late, but I traded with them two turns before I finished it), Writing, CoL, Philosophy, The Republic. I made contact with Carthage in 2800 bc, the Zulu in 2310, and the arabs and greeks in 900bc. The trades were nothing special so I won’t go into detail. My path would be to get into the MA as soon as possible and then get to Military Tradition.

The barbs were a bit of a hassle. They only managed to pillage one tile, but they forced me to focus more on military than I would have preferred. I had quite a few regular warriors running about guarding workers and settlers. I dispersed 8 or so camps.

End of QSQ
39 population
15 cities
4 barracks
3 granaries
1 settler
9 workers
22 warriors
2 archers
3 spearmen
401 gold, -7gpt
Republic due in 3
All 1st tier techs, all second tier except math; Phil, COL, MM.
Spices, dyes and ivory hooked up.
Firaxis score: 271 (zulu 250)



That poor chap circled in blue squatted on that coast tile for nearly two millennia, hoping one of the mysterious “red” people would poke out their head. No luck. A galley finally did the job for him.

I entered the middle ages in 590bc, about 10 turns away from building my Forbidden Palace and with a stack of around 20 swords (horses would not be hooked up until a few turns later). The first victim would likely be an off-continent opponent that managed to complete the Pyramids in 650bc. Carthage was only around 8 turns from building them. It is a shame that they didn’t get them, as it would have made a huge impact in my game. Because of where the Pyramids ended up, I floundered a bit on where to jump my palace later, and therefore jumped it too late I think.

1.27

MiniMe: It looks like we are playing similar games!

Opening Moves

As planned I moved the settler east one step. The worker took two steps to reach the wheat in 3950BC and saw that the great seer Dynamic had spoken truly - as he prophesized there were two more wheatfields.

With +9 food/turn available to be shared between the first two towns I wasn't sure whether to produce a settler first or a granary first. After producing two warriors and sending them out to explore I decided to start with a granary. My build sequence ended up being warrior, warrior, granary, settler, with the settler being produced in 2670BC. From then on Sogut ran as a four turn settler factory for a very long time. Initially it ran from size 4.5 to 6.5, beginning at size 4.5 in 2670BC. Some time later my workers improved enough of the surrounding land for it to run a 4.0 to 6.0 cycle which saved a bit of luxury spending.

Micromanagement

With the approach I took there was a lot of micromanagement to be done in this game! I irrigated all three of the home region wheats. Sogut with its granary had priority access to the two grassland wheats. It used both of them for one of every two turn growth cycle and one of them in the other turn. Three of my next four towns, Iznik, Uskudar, and Aydin, were located so that they could share access to the three wheat tiles. They were arranged like this (arial photo taken in 2030BC immediately after founding Aydin; Izmit was founded before Aydin to claim the eastern wheat and ivory):



I shuffled citizen assignments among those three towns and Sogut to benefit from all three wheat tiles every turn and to avoid wasting food in overruns. I didn't build granaries in any of them but those three towns did grow fairly quickly with the extra food. They built workers and an occasional extra settler between their other tasks (mainly warriors and a few archers in the early stage.)

This wasn't as neat as bradleyfeanor's warrior+settler pump.

Exploration and Growth

I built quite a few warriors in this game. As I explored I kept encountering more and more barbarians. The barbarians were quite a nuisance. Often I found my units dancing with them a bit to gain the advantage of strong defensive ground. I didn't lose much though the loss of one worker was painful. I sent out a few archers to deal with barbarian camps where they had defensive bonuses. Eventually (1250BC) I'd dealt with them all and had about a dozen warriors at lookout points keeping the entire home region clear of new camps. I think the barbarians were stronger and more troublesome than I'm used to because there weren't many nearby AIs sending units through our home area to help deal with them. And the two nearby AIs weren't strong so they didn't have many units to send.

I met Carthage in 3300BC. A Zulu scout met me in 2430BC. In 1725BC one of my warriors found the north end of the land bridge and followed it. He didn't encounter anyone on the bridge, crossed it, and in 1350BC he found the Zulu on the other side. I finally realized that they'd started there. Their scout I'd met in the north sure got there quickly!

I decided to go for a ring 4 and ring 8 build. Cities in the inner ring would build libraries as soon as possible, to speed progress toward Military Tradition. The outer ring would build barracks and horsemen. Although the outer ring would be significantly corrupt (nearly 50% as it turned out) I didn't build any courthouses. I was planning a quick conquest and wasn't sure courthouses would pay back their construction cost before the end of the game.

One priority build outside the core region was to claim horses. I sent a settler to the north end of the land bridge as soon as I saw the horses there and had no problem claiming them before a rival.

I'd hoped to do a Palace jump this game but as Ancient Times evolved pretty much abandoned the thought. I didn't find a good location for a second region except the areas already occupied by my neighbors, and I didn't want to try taking those with an early war. I decided to build a Forbidden Palace in my ring four town directly west of the Palace. This will reduce corruption a bit throughout the empire and will expand the productive region to be an oval with a few western coastal cities becoming ring 4. At the end of Ancient Times the Forbidden Palace is not yet complete.

In 1910BC I noticed a red Civ border off our west coast. I sent a warrior to stand on the furthest west point of land. He patiently waited there hoping to hail another Civ across the water but no one ever appeared. See bradleyfeanor's spoiler for a picture of this in an alternate universe Eventually I got Map Making and of course sent a galley to make contact.

QSC status (1000BC):
19 towns, 34 citizens
1 settler
10 native workers, 1 foreign worker
14 warriors, 5 archers, 1 galley
1 granary, 1 barracks

I kept a QSC timeline, click here if you want to see it. Spoiler warning - if you don't know and have the maps of four Civs then don't read my QSC timeline.

My map at the end of Ancient Times in 690BC:



Research

I researched Pottery first to build a granary quickly.

After that I focused on research speed. I'm planning a conquest using Sipahi so I want to get to Military Tradition as soon as possible. To help with that I gave away, or traded for the little I could get, a fair bit of ancient tech to my neighbors.

Research summary:
3350 Learn Pottery
3300 Trade for Alphabet
1990 Learn Writing
1990 Trade for Iron Working, The Wheel, Warrior Code
1725 Learn Philosophy
1725 Trade for Ceremonial Burial
1500 Learn Code Of Laws
1250 Trade for Map Making, Horseback Riding
1150 Trade for Mysticism, Mathematics
1025 Learn Republic and revolt, got a four turn revolution
875 Learn Literature
775 Learn Currency
690 Learn Polytheism
690 Trade for Construction and enter the Middle Ages

Warfare

I didn't want to be directly involved in any warfare before reaching Military Tradition. But I'd be happy to see others fighting - that would keep them out of mischief and keep them weaker.

So after discovering the land bridge and crossing it I decided to deliberately not block it. I was hoping that Zululand and Carthage would come into conflict. I thought they'd probably attack each other before attacking me since I was the strongest.

No such luck. My plan perhaps even backfired, things might have stayed quiet if I'd blocked the bridge. As it was the Zulu sent some units across the bridge and attacked me in 975BC. It was just a nuisance though. I was able to easily defend my town on the hills north of the horses with just warriors.

In 800BC Carthage allied with Zululand against me. Still no problem. Neither of them sent many units and I didn't lose any ground. I didn't counter-attack, just defended my holdings with my existing small forces.

In 775BC I paid Zululand a bit for peace and in 650BC I actually got a town from Carthage in exchange for peace. So these wars didn't come out badly. Still, I wish I could have gotten them to fight each other instead

PtW, Open.
Quick: MA in 630BC, uneventful. Horses and Iron secured, but not connected. Contact with 4 Civs, maps & embassies of all.

@bradleyfeanor: I knew there was a 4-turn warrior/settler factory in there, I just couldn't spot the darned thing! However I still have Sogut on Settler duty....

Neil.

PREDATOR Panther 1.29

Recently I did a number of warmongering games and thus I decided to do a mostly peaceful builder game this time (industrious, scientific). If the starting land-mass is decently sized, I wanted to build The Pyramids (should be possible on monarch). Target victory condition is diplomatic. When learning the map of our continent, peaceful was re-defined to peaceful once Carthaginians and Zulus are assimilated and we are exclusive owners of the 2 connected continents.

I settled 1 tile east of the starting position and Sogut mostly built settlers and workers. In 2350BC Uskudar was founded on the dyes and I decided to build The Pyramids. Carthage started them 1950BC, but when I established an embassy in 1830BC, I learned that they would finish in 49 turns, whereas I still needed 91. Thus I aggressively joined workers to Uskudar to speed the build and succeeded 825BC (i.e. 39 turns after 1830bc).

Research was pottery, iron, writing (beaten by 2 turns, traded), literature (speed tech), col, philosophy, republic (775BC, 4 turns anarchy), currency, construction (beaten by 1 turn, traded). Trading gave us the other techs, and we enter Middle Ages 550BC. The Forbidden Palace is under construction west of Sogut, and the plan is to move the Palace to Zulu country, once we conquer them.

The initial progress was significantly slowed down, because a lot of effort was spend towards The Pyramids in Uskudar. Thus 1000BC I only had 8 cities, 1 settler, 4 workers. It will be interesting to see whether The Pyramids bring the envisioned push as the game progresses.

Well I played as a militaristic Ottoman but just thought it was another modification like Cracker made way back when. It actually did me a favour, I believe, as I usuallly get a bit lazy with research playing as a scientific civ. This time I was forced to look at commerce in each city before deciding whether a library would be useful or not.

I noticed the red civ quite early on and was fortunate to make contact across the canal quite early (before lit). I didn't trade contacts and was able to keep up with the tech pace more or less through the whole ancient age. I also was contacted by a Zulu scout waaay before I found their land bridge.
I had a peaceful AA and watched Carthage and the Zulu waste shields on trying to attack each other. A couple of cities changed hands a few times during a 50 turn or so war.

I tried a few tricks to keep up with tech but most of them missed by a turn or two. The AI learned Maths and construction one turn before I did, but I was first to Republic while they all went for Monarchy etc.

I'm aiming for a space victory so have been trading like mad to speed up the pace. The change of era hit me hard thanks to the barbarian hordes but luckily I remembered reading a spoiler post ages ago where the player spent a load of cash on embassies and upgrades to minimise losses to barbs. This worked quite nicely but the losses were still a bit painful.

I'll edit when I get home with some dates and a pic or two.

That was a great game!

My situation looked pretty much like those above, except for SirPleb's gonzo expansion.

I skipped the granary and tried the blocking strategy while doing some barb farming.

Putting the sole UU resource next to the landbridge was tricky, and I wound up at war with Hani and Shaka, too. Fortunately a third civ put a town right on the bridge and kept Shaka's armies at bay.

Moderator Action: Deleted your game result summary as it's way past the AA time span for this spoiler

SirPleb said:

I'd hoped to do a Palace jump this game ...

Click to expand...

I'm a little curious about this - you didn't like the mountains to the NW taking a prime spot?

1.27
I played this game as industrious and militaristic. That meant expensive libraries and universities, no free tech, but cheap barracks and an increased chance of leaders. Yet it wasn´t until the middle ages that I got my first leader.

It was hard to miss the wheat tiles under the fog on my LCD monitor. So I moved east and set up a settler factory. I managed about a dozen towns by 1000 BC, set up at RCP5 and RCP 8. The only downside seemed to be that only RCP8 towns could be placed by the sea. These towns were rather corrupt and poor so they built nothing but workers and, once Map Making came along, galleys. It is not often that two perfect RCP rings can be set up, so this could be a game where Forbidden Palace won’t be necessary. I still built FP by hand close to the capital which increased the output of galleys.

Dates worthy of note (well, to me at least):

4000 – Settler east, worker south.

3950 and onwards – Sogut founded. Worker east to wheat. Sogut worked the bonus grassland for 2 turns until irrigation was finished for a slightly earlier warrior and growth in 6 turns.

Research set to 100% on alphabet.

Build order: warrior, warrior, worker, settler, settler, granary. Why the two settlers? I wanted to hook up the ivory and dyes early on so that luxury could be kept lower for the fairly long period while the granary was being built. Perhaps, as I started a deity game recently, I was also afraid someone would nick the ivory. The second settler was actually switched from granary when a warrior saw the ivory.

3000 – Contact with Carthage. Hannibal was ahead of me by at least 4 turns since he knew the alphabet and my other techs too.

2800 – Learned the alphabet. Iznik, first town, founded at RCP5 by dyes within reach of the wheat plain. It is the weakest wheat tile in terms of growth, but none of the others were available at RCP5, so I set things up quite differently from SirPleb’s RCP4. Leaving both grassland wheats for Sogut resulted in a rather “sloppy” 4-turn settler factory. On the other hand, ivory became available earlier and I gained a bit more territory.

2630 and onwards – A warrior embarked on his long walk across the landbridge. At the end, he met a barb camp. That was critical, but he was not attacked. Rather, the surplus barb warrior stepped away.

2510 – Pottery discovered and traded to Carthage for gold.

2070 – Zulu scout found at the end of the land strip. He had been unable to approach the strip due to the barb camp at its southern base. Iron working and Cer. burial traded. I then acquired warrior code from Carthage. The wheel and mysticism had to wait until I had writing to trade.

1990 – Learned writing. Traded the wheel and mysticism.

1150 – Map making traded from Carthage. But I only had two fresh coastal cities around this time and too little forest to cut down around them.

950 – Discovered the republic. Revolted twice (first from the big picture screen and then again from the advisor’s question) and lo and behold: it saved me one turn. I’ve questioned if this works before, but now it even worked for me. 4 turn anarchy instead of 5.

875 – Became a republic. 2 warriors disbanded in Sogut.

800 - First galley completed.

690 – Learned literature. By now I had 12 swordsmen and started building libraries.

650 – Traded polytheism from Carthage for Republic. I wanted Carthage to have republic so that they would not be able to pop-rush towns down to size 1. Traded Construction this turn also.

590 – War on Carthage. This war could have been started earlier, but my swordsmen were hunting barbs for a while. Unlike SirPleb I was slow in wiping out barbs. It was probably a necessity for SirPleb to get rid of the barbs as he was going for a much faster expansion phase. Forbidden Palace finished in Iznik.

570 – 2 towns taken.

550 – 1 town taken. 8 swordsmen and 1 elite spearman were now marching towards the capital, 3 tiles away. Currency researched, end of ancient age.

This is an interesting map – thanks! The difference between militaristic victories and more peaceful ones may become smaller this month, given the lush starting area. However, I am going for militaristic this time. “Zulus in space” last month was a pretty megalomaniacal idea, but now I’m back to my villainous greed for tiles.

@bradleyfeanor: Neat warrior/settler factory! Looking forward to hearing your evaluation of how it helped you in the end.

I’ll leave you with my most exciting moment to date, the meeting with Zulu. I was “this” close to attacking the barb in the middle and might have lost the warrior before meeting Zulu:

SirPleb said:

This wasn't as neat as bradleyfeanor's warrior+settler pump.

Click to expand...

Megalou said:

Neat warrior/settler factory! Looking forward to hearing your evaluation of how it helped you in the end.

Click to expand...

Thanks! Unfortunately, it looks like the pump did not made a tremendous difference by the end of the QSC period, because Sir Pleb pulled quite a bit ahead in number of cities. Although this was certainly due to his superior skill in making decisions, it was also my fault. The pump itself was tremendously efficient--never wasting a single shield or food. But that is not the case for the two cities that shared the wheats. On many turns that the wheats were “free”, the other two cities needed only one or two food for growth. Considering the care I took with the settler factory, I should have given the same attention to bringing the other two cities into “sync” with it. I’m still learning the finer details of micromanagement.

There were also a few things that occurred in the middle ages that devalued/altered my pump, but I will save those for the next spoiler.

I have a formula I use as a very quick means of gauging “raw QSC expansion,” and by my formula, Sir Pleb and MiniMe both had a stronger start than mine. I would be curious to know what others think of the formula, and/or if they would modify it. It may be of value, it may be complete crap. I’m not sure. The formula does not take into account military, research or anything like that—just the raw expansion that the civ accomplished pre 1000bc. Therefore, it can’t be used to measure the success of any game plan (for instance, I could not use it to compare my initial game to tao’s in this thread, because he had a very different plan).

Here is the formula:
2.5 points for every city
1 point for each additional citizen (additional citizens = total population – number of cities)
2 points for each granary
2 points for each settler
1 point for every worker
.5 for every slave

By my formula, I had 73.5 points, Sir Pleb had 75 points, and MiniMe had 79.5. Maybe cities should be worth 3 rather than 2.5. Has some other civfanatic come up with a formula for measuring expansion?

@Megalou: I hope you get a few leaders, to balance out being militaristic instead of scientific!

SirPleb said:

MiniMe: It looks like we are playing similar games!

Click to expand...

I wish, yes
Only difference is you will finish centuries before me

alamo said:

I'm a little curious about this - you didn't like the mountains to the NW taking a prime spot?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure which mountains you mean but for any mountains in our home region my answer would be no. What I'd have liked for a Palace jump would have been to see a good second region during early exploration which looked large enough to support the Palace and at least four or five towns at ring 3 or ring 4. From anything smaller I'd gain unreasonably from the Palace rank bug. I didn't see a good enough location in early exploration. In hindsight perhaps starting with a quick push to settle eastward, build an FP near the ivory, and jump the Palace directly west would be a good opening. But I didn't see that before too far into the game. So just building FP in my westward ring 4 town to expand my productive region seemed the best thing to do. (For any close location building the FP and not jumping seems better than jumping - might as well retain the investment made in the initially chosen ring structure.)

bradleyfeanor said:

I would be curious to know what others think of the formula, and/or if they would modify it.

Click to expand...

I would suggest modifying the formula to be:
1 point per city (instead of 1.5, but see notes about this)
1 point per citizen
2 point per settler
1 point per worker
.5 per slave

My reasoning:
1) If the formula is to measure "raw QSC expansion" then granaries should not count. Whatever good they've done during the QSC period is already counted in the other factors. Counting them for more is counting future potential, not expansion so far. And counting future potential requires a much more complicated formula with lots of factors, e.g. the GOTM QSC scoring.
2) Cities and citizens count the same because the city works one tile as does each citizen.
3) Native workers count the same as citizens because they can be converted to/from citizens one to one. Foreign workers are worth less because they produce less and can't be safely joined to become citizens.
4) Settlers count for two points because a) two points worth of citizens can be converted to a settler and b) a settler creates a 1-citizen town which is also worth two points.

Amusingly I think that this formula results in 65 for each of us (MiniMe, bradleyfeanor, SirPleb) if we ignore my one slave worker.

The part which seems fuzziest is counting each city for 1 point (in addition to its citizen count.) Your formula counted each city for 1.5 (after allowing for subtracting city count from citizens) and you mentioned thinking about increasing that value. In terms of raw empire production it seems right to me to count each city for just one, representing the working of the city center tile. But in the general concept of "raw QSC expansion" there's value in the territory represented by each city. The territory represents score gained, progress toward domination, and land denied to rivals. I don't know what value that should be given in this formula.

PtW Open, Long Version

Summary: A quiet MA, which ended with me dominant enough but not having connected up the necessary resources to go to war with Hannibal and his Mercenaries. Barbs were a problem, I lost one Settler (to a Horse from the fog) and two Workers (simply due to not spotting the Barbs could gobble them!), so a lot of tiles that could've been worked/connected aren't. In fact I'm very short on Workers entering the MA, and ought to pop a few from Sogut.

Contacts: Zulu (my first Warrior went south found the land bridge and followed it; my second went west and followed the coast north and east - so it was a while before I met Carthage), plus Civs A and B just across the narrow water. I have everyone's maps. The Zulu in particular were great research partners, completing a couple of techs on the exact same turn that I finished another one.

Future: I'm on top of the Barb situation now I have enough Archers running round to hit them as they pop up. First priority is to actually connect up the Iron and Horses, and chain a few towns down to Istanbul so it's not isolated. Research - not sure. I'm pretty sure that Zulu will be researching Monarchy, so I might go for Republic before starting Engineering. Militartily, Carthage is the obvious target. They'll always be weak, being stuck on awful terrain and trapped in a corner. Put them out of their misery. Then cross the water. Leave Zulu to later, and use the long isthmus to keep them at bay.

Turn log:
BC 4000 Worker SE, Settler E. There are definitely Dyes to the SW, in a forest.
3950 Worker SE to the Wheat - two more Wheat are revealed! Settler-factory-tastic! Not-so quick calculation, and I don't think I can turn it into a Warrior+Settler factory, as I only have 8 shields at Size 5 (if I settle SW on the BG). I settle in place, and found Istanbul. Er, no, Sogut?! Research: Pottery @ Max. (I stared at it for ages and ages, wondering if I should've settled on the BG instead... and didn't see what bradleyfeanor saw!)
3300 Pottery finished. Start Alphabet @ Min.
2630 First Settler produced.
2510 Iznik founded by Dyes. First two Warriors for Sogut, then a Worker.
2470 Contact with Zulu. Yes, a very interesting landform. I think, for now, my Warrior can sit on that long neck of land and stop anyone else from poking around. Trade Masonry for Warrior Code+10g.
2390 Uskudar founded. We also have Ivory within reach.
2230 Izmit founded. A barb warrior is close by, and will sack it before I can get a unit there.
2150 IBT: Barbs sack Izmit, take 40g :-(
2110 Contact with Carthage. Give Pottery+50g for Alphabet. Alphabet+30g to Zulu for The Wheel. The Wheel to Carthage for 60g. Decide to research CB on max, I might profit from it.
2070 IBT: Barbs hit Izmit again. I switched from Grass to Forest to get shields for the Warrior.
2030 Warrior disperses Barbs and I get my 25g back. Aydin founded.
1950 CB+40g to Carthage for IW.
1910 Antalya founded.
1830 Missed a trick… Sogut *can* be a 4-turn Warrior/Settler factory. Hmm. 5-7 though. (Except I was wrong of course... not that it didn't stop me trying....)
1725 Mysticism+55g to Zulu for HBR. Mysticism to Carthage for 40g. IBT: A Settler is killed by a Barb horse.
1525 Bursa founded. I messed up my Settler factory big-time - it was an optical illusion :-( I thought I saw 8 shields and +5 food at size 4.5, but it was only +4 food. Only 7 shields at +5 food. Not enough for a warrior on growth. Still, I bought the illusion, and ended up popping two warriors, then a Settler, to turn from a 4.5-6.5 into a 5-7 factory.
1500 IBT: Lose a worker to a Barb horse, careless - I didn't spot it…. These Barbs really are annoying me!
1475 IBT: Barbs hit another Worker, really, this isn't going well! They also destroy a road. And Sogut riots.
1400 Finger slip and I send a Settler the wrong way. This game is a disaster.
1250 Edirne founded.
1225 Contact CivA, just across the water. Give them Zulu for CivB+11g. Sell HBR to CivB for 34g. Istanbul founded.
1175 Konya founded.
1150 Trade Poly+Philo to Zulu for Territory+MM+25g. Trade WMs with everyone. CivB has 4 cities, CivA 4, Carthage 6, Zulu 9, Ottomans 10!
1050 Adana founded.
1025 IBT: Istanbul sacked by a Barb horse (Warrior defender killed).
1000 QSC: 11 Cities, Pop 27. Tech: All AA except Maths, Curr, Const, (Lit), CoL (1 turn), (Rep), (Mon). Contacts: Zulu, Carthage, CivA, CivB. Embassies with all. 2 settlers, 4 workers (lotsa Barb hits :-(), 10 Warriors, 3 Archers. 1 Granary, 2 Barracks, 1 Temple. 137g, +9gpt. 250 Firaxis points, 2 behind Zulu.
975 Sinop founded. CoL to Zulu for Maths+25g. IBT: Ottomans are most Powerful!
825 Kafa founded. Literature.
775 Davidiople founded.
630 Finish Currency. Trade WM,Curr,Lit,4g to Zulu for Construction, and we enter the Middle Ages. Monotheism is the free tech. Alexmanika founded.

World at 630BC:


Neil.

The bright sun glistened on his stasis pod as Mursilis opened the hatch and surveyed the landscape with a river nearby and wheat to the southeast he smiled. A little voice in the back of his mind said “The fog gazers say there’s more wheat to the southeast”, and with nothing to lose he gathered up his belongings and ordered the settlers that direction. With the founding of Sogut, the fog gazers were proven to be right again and with the addition food available, Mursilis set his wise men to researching pottery, so that a granary could be built.

His early scouts reported that there were luxury items for the people in the nearby woods. Both ivory and dyes would be there as soon as he could get settlers to claim the territory. His initial scout, Thor made contact with the Carthaginian people and reported back a tribe of relatively equal strength to that of the Mursilis’ people.

The founding of the city of Iznik commemorated the end of the first thousand years. The next millennia passed with little commotion. A couple of new cities were founded, a couple of new technologies were researched or traded for and our warrior-scout, Conan met the Zulu peoples a proceeded to camp out on a choke point to keep the Zulu and Carthage as strangers. This communication block allowed Mursilis to serve as the trading hub and coupled with his own research allowed the Ottoman republic to reach the Middle Ages in 390 BC. During that time the thoughtful Zulu and Carthaginians were kind enough to build the Pyramids and Great Library.

The ancient age had been a quiet one and entering the Middle Ages with 19 cities, most of them with libraries and warrior garrisons. Soon Osman (as his people now called him would begin building troops for conquest.

SirPleb said:

Amusingly I think that this formula results in 65 for each of us (MiniMe, bradleyfeanor, SirPleb)

Click to expand...

I'll take it!

Your numbers do indeed make more sense. I shall convert.

Eldar said:

I stared at it for ages and ages, wondering...)

Click to expand...

Me too! It took me forever to make that first move, and I left the computer three or four times just to clear my head (and to get beer). I am still learning how to "spot" all the factory possibilities, and I finally had to resort to pencil and paper in order to map out each turn.

Here's my core at 1000 bc, ring 4 is complete and ring 7 on the way :





1000 bc Status :
21 cities.
51 citizens
5 granary
2 barracks
7 workers
9 warriors
3 archers

Republic in 8 turns, AA techs left : Math, Currency, Construction, Polytheism, Monarchy.
Score : Ottomans 327, Zulu 252, Carthage 208.

...and Carthage did build The Pyramids.