Term II Judiciary - The Dikastic Court

Furiey said:
They should be able to vote in both polls, they are still citizens and should still have their say as citizens, they then get another chance as Governors. But the House/Assembly thing does need correcting.

Absolutely correct. First and foremost, Governors ARE citizens of Fanatikos, with all the rights from that.

Yup - the change to Assembly was a late one, I missed an update. Furiey - if you'd correct that in your nicely formatted version before a friendly mod comes along and posts that version, I'd appreciate it!

-- Ravensfire
 
Done.

COL F.2 House corrected to Assembly as follows:

previous:
Section F.2 Declaration of War
To declare a war, the Minister of Foreign Affairs will create a normal poll for the House, and a thread poll for the Senate. If more than 50% of the voters, not counting abstain, in both polls support the declaration, war can be declared. If either poll gains a two-thirds majority in support of war, war may be declared regardless of the other poll.

corrected:
Section F.2 Declaration of War
To declare a war, the Minister of Foreign Affairs will create a normal poll for the Assembly, and a thread poll for the Senate. If more than 50% of the voters, not counting abstain, in both polls support the declaration, war can be declared. If either poll gains a two-thirds majority in support of war, war may be declared regardless of the other poll.
 
I find it disturbing, and highly disgusting that a half dozen people are capable of making a decision that should be asked of everyone. I trust that the issue of checks and balances in this case will be examined, and the issue will be modified.

I must ask however, why do those whose duties don't even relate to a declaration of war, have the ability to do so? Is it some sadistic attempt to copy the American Constitution? What is the point or purpose [rhyme or reason] to doing such?

The peoples consent should be the one, and only consent we need to declare war.
 
Strider said:
I find it disturbing, and highly disgusting that a half dozen people are capable of making a decision that should be asked of everyone. I trust that the issue of checks and balances in this case will be examined, and the issue will be modified.

I must ask however, why do those whose duties don't even relate to a declaration of war, have the ability to do so? Is it some sadistic attempt to copy the American Constitution? What is the point or purpose [rhyme or reason] to doing such?

The peoples consent should be the one, and only consent we need to declare war.

As best I can tell, the primary reason for having this "feature" in the law is to give the governors a lot more power -- in a somewhat misguided effort to make the 5BCC variant "more meaningful".

Unfortunately, we have effectively zero chance of making any constitutional changes, since the honorable Chief Justice demanded and got a 2/3 majority requirement to pass amendments. The very same 8-10 people who are rabid 5BCC supporters are the same ones who wanted the governors to have all the power, so it's pretty clear that they can hold up changes if they want to.

:joke: about the rabid part... but they are pretty adament about it :lol:
 
Okay DS, time to hammer into your reply.

As best I can tell, the primary reason for having this "feature" in the law is to give the governors a lot more power -- in a somewhat misguided effort to make the 5BCC variant "more meaningful".
Either your memory failed you or you didn't look. This had absolutely nothing to do with a 5BC. Zip. Zero. Nada. Go back and read the discussion on it. I may be rapid, but I'll still let you do the busy work.

Unfortunately, we have effectively zero chance of making any constitutional changes, since the honorable Chief Justice demanded and got a 2/3 majority requirement to pass amendments.
Yup - it's odd that people wanted a set of core rules that won't be changed at a mere whim as some want at the slightest hint of danger. Gosh - we might lose? We might have a challenge? Oh the horror! What would the Carebears do? Oh yeah - change the rules.
The very same 8-10 people who are rabid 5BCC supporters are the same ones who wanted the governors to have all the power, so it's pretty clear that they can hold up changes if they want to.
Nope - not totally. But since you read the discussion, you know the answer to that by now.

Finally, since this appears to be related to the overrule of one group (Assembly vs House) on DoW, which is the only place it can happen, please review the law to determine where the details, including the thresholds, are given. Now, I know the rapid supporters, including the Chief Justice, know where it is, and the process for changing that percentage. I'm hoping that the Carebears will figure out that there isn't anything preventing them from making changes to that section.

Oh, and j/k about the Carebears - I'll have to come up with a different term.

-- Ravensfire
 
Judge Advocate Strider,

Any update on when you'll be posting your ruling on DG7JR8?

Thanks,
Ravensfire, Chief Justice
 
ravensfire said:
Judge Advocate Strider,

Any update on when you'll be posting your ruling on DG7JR8?

Thanks,
Ravensfire, Chief Justice

I am placing a vote of Abstain on this one. I don't trust myself to rule on this issue without causing un-need anger.
 
Strider said:
I am placing a vote of Abstain on this one. I don't trust myself to rule on this issue without causing un-need anger.

Hmm, the judicial procedures say you have to post a clear opinion, I don't know if abstaining is allowed.

For my part, I've always said (or at least I hope so) that I pursue a subject until the WOTP is determined, and then drop the matter if it goes against me. Whether others might be angry is another question of course.
 
DaveShack said:
Hmm, the judicial procedures say you have to post a clear opinion, I don't know if abstaining is allowed.

I'd hope there smart enough to walk the red carpet while it's there.

Also, I did state a clear view on the issue. Which is why we need a dictionary to define these damnable terms.
 
Strider said:
I am placing a vote of Abstain on this one. I don't trust myself to rule on this issue without causing un-need anger.

Very well. I'm disappointed, that's rather a cop-out, but I accept your ruling of Abstain on DG7JR8. As you pointed out, it is a clear ruling, and it covered the entire JR.

I would not have accepted a partial ruling, answering some and abstaining on other questions.

-- Ravensfire, Chief Justice
 
ravensfire said:
Very well. I'm disappointed, that's rather a cop-out, but I accept your ruling of Abstain on DG7JR8. As you pointed out, it is a clear ruling, and it covered the entire JR.

This is a pleasant surprise, and while not the optimum solution it is probably the most prudent for all concerned. I applaud you both for handling the situation in a way which is best for the common good. :)
 
I have a question about play sessions and instructions. The judiciary may choose to consider this a JR request or not depending on whether it is too obvious.


CoL Section L.1 Game Sessions
The game session may last for as long as there are relevant instructions, until a posted instruction says to hold the session or when the DP decides to end the session. Once a game session is over, the DP must post a summary of that session, a detailed log of their actions, and a save in the instruction thread and in the summary thread.

Traditionally (in previous games), the minimum scheduled game session was 10 turns, and all officials were expected to provide instructions lasting at least that long. Can that tradition be assumed in this game as well? I'm not inclined to give anyone bad ideas so will avoid commenting on what it would mean if the answer to that question were no.
 
Chief Justice's ruling on DG7JR8

Question: How should Article C of the Constitution be interpreted - 1 city per civ, or 7 cities total, from any combination of civs?
Citizen Comments: Thanks to Donovan Zoi, RegentMan, Nobody, Bertie, zyxy, Provolution, greekguy, Daveshack for your comments and discussion on this matter.
Ruling: The nation of Fanatikos may capture and hold only 1 city from each civilization.

Explanation: Article C is clear on this matter - 1 city per civilization may be taken. 1 from German, 1 from Babylon, etc.
Article C. Game Structure
No more than 5 cities built by Fanatikos may exist at any time. In addition, only one city from each foreign civilization may be taken by any means. All other cities that we gain must be razed immediately.

The following questions were posed by various citizens throughout the discussion. To help in the creation of a comprehensive review over all questions raised about Article C, the Chief Justice requested the Judiciary also answer those questions.
To draw from the first clause of Article C:
No more than 5 cities built by Fanatikos may exist at any time.
I'm going to create a consistent theme throughout this JR – the doctrine of creation. A city is considered “owned” by the Civ that founded that city, not the civilization that currently owns the city.

It's been pointed out that this is a game, that we are here to have fun. The 5BC variant is a compromise variant between a 5CC and an Epic game. The restrictions are there to primarily force our focus on those first 5 cities. This is born out in great latitude that we give our Governors in control of their cities. We view the conquered cities with much less interest, placing all of them under control of 1 Governor. These cities might be the only opportunities we have to acquire some resources through land we directly control. Colonies are nice, but can be limited by lack of port access and the threat of a civ simply walking over the colony. Only a city provides permanence.

There is also no reason to punish the players of DG7 for the actions of another civ any more that necessary. Nor should the Governor of cities that we've conquered see their duties reduced because of a war-mongering civ on another continent that we did not know about.

Question: Does recapturing a city we built count as taking a city from a civ?
Ruling: No, it does not.
Explanation: Per the doctrine of creation, a city founded by Fanatikos is considered our city, now and forever. Our retaking of that city is considered a return of rightful property, not of conquering foreign territory, regardless of how long that takes.

Question: May we abandon a city from a civ to take another city from that civ?
Ruling: No, we may not.
Explanation: Aside from the obvious gamesmanship and poor sportsmanship, the instant we conquer a city, those citizens become members of our civilization. We would no sooner burn down Olympus as we would a city we have liberated from another land.

Question: If we capture a city, then the civ recaptures that city back, may we recapture that city, any other city the civ has, or no city from that civ?
Ruling: We may reconquer that city, and no other from that civilization.
Explanation: As in the question above, when we conquer a city it is our. We have the right and the duty to protect that city from harm, and are lessened by its loss. Reconquest of that city is always permitted.

Question: If we capture a city from Civ A that was founded by Civ B, and we keep that city, which civ did we take that city from, A (who we conquered it from) or B (who founded it)?
Ruling: The city comes from Civ B, the city that founded it.
Explanation: Again, the doctrine of creation comes into play. We place many burdens on our shoulders, this is not one we should bear. Cities draw their heritage from the civilization that founds them – we should not forget that.

-- Ravensfire, Chief Justice
 
Judiciary Rulings

DG7JR8 – How should Article 3 of the Constitution be interpreted?

Question: May we take 1 city per civ, or 7 cities total, from any combination of civs?
By a 2-0-1 decision, we may only take 1 city per civ. The Chief Justice and the Public defender voted for this ruling, the Judge Advocate abstained.

Question: Question: Does recapturing a city we built count as taking a city from a civ?
By a 2-0-1 decision, we may recapture cities we've founded without counting them as conquering a foreign city. The Chief Justice and the Public defender voted for this ruling, the Judge Advocate abstained.

Question: May we abandon a city from a civ to take another city from that civ?
By a 2-0-1 decision, we may not abandon a city we've conquered to take another city from that civ. The Chief Justice and the Public defender voted for this ruling, the Judge Advocate abstained.

Question: If we capture a city, then the civ recaptures that city back, may we recapture that city, any other city the civ has, or no city from that civ?
By a 2-0-1 decision, we may recapture cities we've conquered and lost, but may not conquer another city from that civ. The Chief Justice and the Public defender voted for this ruling, the Judge Advocate abstained.

Question: If we capture a city from Civ A that was founded by Civ B, and we keep that city, which civ did we take that city from, A (who we conquered it from) or B (who founded it)?
By a 2-0-1 decision, the origin of cities is based on the founder of the city, not the current owner. The Chief Justice and the Public defender voted for this ruling, the Judge Advocate abstained.

-- Ravensfire, Chief Justice
 
DaveShack said:
I have a question about play sessions and instructions. The judiciary may choose to consider this a JR request or not depending on whether it is too obvious.

In either case however it would be nice to get a reply. ;)
 
DaveShack said:
In either case however it would be nice to get a reply. ;)
Sorry - got a (tiny) bit busy. One reply, coming up!

-- Ravensfire
 
DaveShack said:
I have a question about play sessions and instructions. The judiciary may choose to consider this a JR request or not depending on whether it is too obvious.


CoL Section L.1 Game Sessions
The game session may last for as long as there are relevant instructions, until a posted instruction says to hold the session or when the DP decides to end the session. Once a game session is over, the DP must post a summary of that session, a detailed log of their actions, and a save in the instruction thread and in the summary thread.

Traditionally (in previous games), the minimum scheduled game session was 10 turns, and all officials were expected to provide instructions lasting at least that long. Can that tradition be assumed in this game as well? I'm not inclined to give anyone bad ideas so will avoid commenting on what it would mean if the answer to that question were no.

To correct you, traditionally, game sessions were traditionally to go a maximum[/]b of 10 turns. Leaders were expected to include instructions for 10 turns, perhaps 1 or 2 more if a major event (tech researched, wonder completed, etc) would happen then.

Game sessions can now go any number of turns, so long as there are instructions from the leaders that go that far, and those instructions do not say "Stop". The intent was, during the early phases and the late phases, to allow for more turns to be played to keep the pace of the game somewhat constants. During the middle phase of the game, events will happen requiring a stop, including conflict, trade opportunities, research, wonders and leaders simply unable to plan long term do to the chaotic nature of events.

-- Ravensfire
 
ravensfire said:
To correct you, traditionally, game sessions were traditionally to go a maximum[/]b of 10 turns. Leaders were expected to include instructions for 10 turns, perhaps 1 or 2 more if a major event (tech researched, wonder completed, etc) would happen then.


Of course -- the minimum and maximum expected game session length were both set to 10.

Not surprisingly, this response (and the rest that I decided not to fully quote) didn't exactly answer the question I was trying to ask. I'm being oblique somewhat on purpose because someone who gets the gist of things and has a grudge against someone else could potentially use the answer in a damaging way.

What would happen for example if one of the governors only supplied 3 turns worth of instructions, or if some official didn't provide any instructions? Anyone knowledgable about the history of the DG will know how this situation was handled in the past. How would it be handled now in this game -- the same way or a different way?
 
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