Global Warming shrinks polar ice caps....

ainwood · Sep 20, 2005

...Dry ice that is - its on Mars!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4266474.stm

Mars 'more active than suspected'

The red planet's surface has changed in just a few years
New images of Mars suggest the red planet's surface is more active than previously thought, the US space agency Nasa has announced.
New photographs from Nasa's orbiting spacecraft, Mars Global Surveyor, show new impact craters and gullies.

The agency's scientists also say that deposits of frozen carbon dioxide near the planet's south pole have shrunk for three summers in a row.

They say these changes suggest climate change is in progress.

'Marsquakes'

"To see new gullies and other changes in Mars surface features on a time span of a few years presents us with a more active, dynamic planet than many suspected," said Nasa's Michael Meyer.

The newly released images also show boulder tracks at another site, which were not there two years ago.

Michael Malin, principal investigator for the Mars Orbiter Camera, said it was the first evidence scientists had seen of some kind of seismic activity on the planet.

The Mars Global Surveyor has been orbiting the planet since 1997; Nasa expects it to carry on doing so for another five to 10 years.

Now - could this be related to human activity? :mischief:

Knight-Dragon · Sep 20, 2005

How strange - I was reading the very same article on BBC's site just seconds ago! :ack:

Urederra · Sep 21, 2005

Of course. It makes sense to me. That´s just because of the solar activity, which is the main cause of the last years hot summers, the so-called global warming. It is so global that also affects Mars :lol:

Check this article as well

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3869753.stm

ainwood · Sep 21, 2005

Urederra said:
Of course. It makes sense to me. That´s just because of the solar activity, which is the main cause of the last years hot summers, the so-called global warming. It is so global that also affects Mars

Check this article as well

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3869753.stm

Only part of the story:

Over the past 20 years, however, the number of sunspots has remained roughly constant, yet the average temperature of the Earth has continued to increase.

This is put down to a human-produced greenhouse effect caused by the combustion of fossil fuels.

Urederra · Sep 21, 2005

It is not only about the sunspots, solar flares have more influence on Earth`s climate since they release more energy into space. Energy that reaches Earth and heats it up.

(and Mars as well

)

This article is very long, but you might be interested in...

http://www.john-daly.com/solar/solar.htm

Edit: I selected a paragraph for you guys to read

john-daly said:
Cycles of big fingers have a mean length of 35.8 years (178.8 years [big hand] / 5 = 35.76 years [big fingers]). They are closely connected with solar activity. They coincide with maxima and minima in the Gleissberg cycle and open up the possibility of predicting these crucial phases many years ahead [62, 63]. As will be shown below, they also define the length of the 22.1-year magnetic cycle of sunspot activity (Hale cycle). As far as climatic change is concerned, cycles of a length of 36 years are not new. Francis Bacon [102] has already pointed to a cycle in the Netherlands with a length of 35 to 40 years with cool and wet phases followed by warm and dry periods. E. Brückner [7] discovered this cycle again in 1887. He demonstrated that varied climatic phenomena in different regions of the world show synchronized phases in a cycle of 33 to 37 years.

carlosMM · Sep 21, 2005

Urederra:
from your article

Observed climate data, which follow the rhythm of the 11-year sunspot cycle,

this guy still follows this proven-false theory. Sorry, he seems to be a very unreliable source.

btw, from the same page:
http://john-daly.com/solar/keller.htm

Conclusion: multi-decadal solar variations are small, but apparantly do account for a significant part of the observed 20th century warming in the first half of the century. But they cannot account for much of the recent warming.

tsk tsk tsk, and there's MUCH more on that page.

FriendlyFire · Sep 21, 2005

Urederra said:
It is not only about the sunspots, solar flares have more influence on Earth`s climate since they release more energy into space. Energy that reaches Earth and heats it up.

(and Mars as well )

This article is very long, but you might be interested in...

http://www.john-daly.com/solar/solar.htm

Edit: I selected a paragraph for you guys to read

If this were true then ice drilling samples which date back several thousand years would show similar result. As such ice samples show no such event on a "global" scale

But I know that climatic changes . cycle have been proven by other means. such as bio-ological evidence of expanding and shrinking plant growth. (or long cycles of droughts and growth)

stormbind · Sep 21, 2005

Uruderra, you are making no sense at all.

Nobody will deny that Earth's climate has changed without human interference, but all changes are can be explained by cause and effect. Changes are simply not unaccounted for, or put down to chance.

It was not by chance that the North Sea was once a tundra.

Science can accurately show that sea levels are rising, and that greenhouse gasses are a contributing factor. Greenhouse gasses do not control everything, but they do contribute significantly (emphasis).

Thus controlling greenhouse gasses will not control the climate in it's entirety, but it would provide significant levels of control. This means it is in your interest to cut CO2 emissions.

Trying to blame everything that you do not understand on sun flares, makes you about as sophisticated as stone age man.

Urederra · Sep 21, 2005

stormbind said:
Uruderra, you are making no sense at all.

Nobody will deny that Earth's climate has changed without human interference, but all changes are can be explained by cause and effect. Changes are simply not unaccounted for, or put down to chance.

It was not by chance that the North Sea was once a tundra.

Science can accurately show that sea levels are rising, and that greenhouse gasses are a contributing factor. Greenhouse gasses do not control everything, but they do contribute significantly (emphasis).

Thus controlling greenhouse gasses will not control the climate in it's entirety, but it would provide significant levels of control. This means it is in your interest to cut CO2 emissions.

Trying to blame everything that you do not understand on sun flares, makes you about as sophisticated as stone age man.

we are discussing those things in this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=126500

BTW, How do you explain the Medieval warm period then? (The Medieval warm period is called to the 12th century or so, when the Vikings arrived at Greenland and they even could farm land over there) That's why it is called Greenland

It is believed that Greenland at that time was up to 2 degrees warmer than today. But at the end of the Medieval warm period the Earth hitted a little Ice Age, the temperatures dropped and the Vikings had to disband the colonies they builded in Greenland, because it wasn't Greenland any more.

Can you explain that based on human produced CO2 levels? I can explain it based on solar activity and solar flares....

But anyway, is good for you that you do believe that there are other factors appart from CO2 that contribute more on earth´s climate. Think about it, maybe those factors are more important than you think, and therefore, CO2 is less important that they are trying to sell to us.

Urederra · Sep 21, 2005

carlosMM said:
Urederra:
from your article

this guy still follows this proven-false theory. Sorry, he seems to be a very unreliable source.
.

There are other cycles apart from the 11 year sunspot one. That article also talks about the Hale´s cycle that you seem to choose to ignore.

...but, at the end facts remain, and the icecaps on Mars are shrinking and the sun is experiencing a record activity. And saying yadda yadda yadda to it is not going to make it dissappear.

stormbind · Sep 21, 2005

Afaik, MWP observations are restricted to the northern hemisphere, and official IPCC recordings suggest the average temperature for Earth was not warmer than today. It can therefore be dismissed as a global phenomena, and my uneducated hypothesis is that MWP resulted from a temporary increase in the north's exposure to radiation, possibly from a shift in Earth's axis (exposing the northern hemisphere to more sun). Earth is known to wobble.

Global warming is being observed in northern and southern hemispheres simultaneously.

Global dimming has been observed in northern and southern hemispheres, yet the temperature continues to rise.

Can you find any evidence to suggest that CO2 has no influence on temperature? I emphasise: What influence does CO2 have on the climate?

stormbind · Sep 21, 2005

Urederra said:
There are other cycles apart from the 11 year sunspot one. That article also talks about the Hale´s cycle that you seem to choose to ignore.

...but, at the end facts remain, and the icecaps on Mars are shrinking and the sun is experiencing a record activity. And saying yadda yadda yadda to it is not going to make it dissappear.

We have no evidence of Mars' climate over the last few hundred years. There is a risk of making 'out of context' theories when basing judgement on a single observation.

carlosMM · Sep 21, 2005

Urederra said:
There are other cycles apart from the 11 year sunspot one. That article also talks about the Hale´s cycle that you seem to choose to ignore.

so there are other cycles - but as the articles you post all over the forum show, they are all easily kicked out of the window (see tr1cky's thread, e.g., where a claim of 0.22% increase is shown to be utter nonsense) etc.

...but, at the end facts remain, and the icecaps on Mars are shrinking and the sun is experiencing a record activity. And saying yadda yadda yadda to it is not going to make it dissappear.

so? my wage is also balooning, is THAT responsible for the warming trend?

simply showing a parallel won't help, you'll have to show how increased solar 'activity' DOES warm mars. Please explain the mechanisms, how such a thin athmosphere can warm so much by so little solar output increase.

Bozo Erectus · Sep 21, 2005

The agency's scientists also say that deposits of frozen carbon dioxide near the planet's south pole have shrunk for three summers in a row.

Less frozen carbon dioxide at the poles means more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, which in turn should lead to a rise in global temperature. This is probably part of a regular cycle on Mars, which is why theyve been finding evidence of recent water on the surface. All the hibernating Martian critters underground must be stirring :scan:

stormbind · Sep 21, 2005

Satellites have also observed water vapour escaping from the atmosphere. The CO2 will go the same way, sucking the last hope of Mars ever being regenerated, and depositing the gas... :eek:

Bozo Erectus · Sep 21, 2005

Yeah it escapes, but Im sure it sticks around in the atmosphere for awhile. Maybe it takes years (decades?) for the co2 to make its way to the upper atmosphere and escape. The recent liquid water on the surface seems to indicate that sometimes the atmosphere is thicker than it is now. Methane is being constantly produced and replenished by organisms underground ( I have no proof, but I dont care), maybe just small rises in temperature lead to a spike in methane production, as the critters rapidly go through their life cycle. More methane would also contribute to higher temps, which would lead to more co2 in the atmosphere, and on and on like that.

Kozmos · Sep 21, 2005

This is good if are ever to settle Mars.Less terraforming to do.

Urederra · Sep 21, 2005

carlosMM said:
so there are other cycles - but as the articles you post all over the forum show, they are all easily kicked out of the window (see tr1cky's thread, e.g., where a claim of 0.22% increase is shown to be utter nonsense) etc.

Well Is one claim that cannot be substained. And the articles I posted were not kicked out ot the window, not the Medieval warm period, not the little Ice age, not the Maunder minimun... none of them... you simply say yadda yadda yadda to it, does not make them being kicked out.

so? my wage is also balooning, is THAT responsible for the warming trend?

simply showing a parallel won't help, you'll have to show how increased solar 'activity' DOES warm mars. Please explain the mechanisms, how such a thin athmosphere can warm so much by so little solar output increase.

It is really so difficult to understand? Sun increases activity, it releases more energy (heat) into space, the increased energy output reaches Mars and the ice caps shrinks more. The article talks about the ice caps, not the atmosphere. If it does it to Mars being further away than the Earth, Simply extrapolate to Earth being closer to the sun.

Try boling an egg, increase the heat output and you'll see how the cavitation rate on the boiling water increases.

.

carlosMM · Sep 21, 2005

Urederra said:
Well Is one claim that cannot be substained. And the articles I posted were not kicked out ot the window, not the Medieval warm period, not the little Ice age, not the Maunder minimun... none of them... you simply say yadda yadda yadda to it, does not make them being kicked out.

please, do read the posts by gothmog - medieval Warm Period, e.g., was a local phenomenon. Throwing it around as an unexplain, worldwide phenomenon, as you imply here, is BS. Goes for the others, you just ignore whatever gothmog posted, including ignoring the literature list he posted.

It is really so difficult to understand? Sun increases activity, it releases more energy (heat) into space, the increased energy output reaches Mars and the ice caps shrinks more.

Numbers, please. 'more' is a bit too little. 0.15% more radiation won't do for much melting, I'M afraid.

Tank_Guy#3 · Sep 21, 2005

I'm not worried, I know how to swim. Also the lowest part of our state is 581 feet above sea level, this is on the shore of Lake Michigan (Wisconsin if you don't know). The highest point, which is terribly named, is Timm Hill 1952 feet above sea level.

Global Warming shrinks polar ice caps....

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