ALC Game 14 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Kublai

Sisiutil

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All Leaders Challenge Pre-Game Show:
Game #14 - Mongolia/Kublai Khan




In the next ALC game, I'll be playing as Kublai Khan, leader of Mongolia. This thread is to discuss, before the game, how to best exploit that particular leader's characteristics, which is the main feature and purpose of the ALC series. Just so we're clear, I'm playing with the Warlords expansion pack and the difficulty level will be Monarch. The speed is Epic, the map is Fractal. Here's the fact sheet:

Traits: Aggressive (Free Combat I promotion of melee and gunpowder units. Double production speed of Barracks and Drydock.) and Creative (+2 culture per city. Double production speed of Library, Theater, and Coliseum.)
Starting Techs: Hunting and the Wheel
Unique Unit: Keshik (Replaces Horse Archer; Strength: 6, Movement: 2, Cost: 50; Unique Characteristics: Ignores terrain movement costs.)
Unique Building: Ger (Replaces Stable; Cost: 60; Requires: Horseback Riding; Unique Characteristics: New mounted units receive +2 experience points--added to the stable's +2 XPs for a total of +4)

Like Tokugawa, both Mongolians strike me as leaders whose characteristics require warmongering in order to best take advantage of them. Aggressive obviously lends itself to war, what with those cheap barracks and drydocks, and the free Combat I promotion.

Creative, on the other hand, isn't usually thought of as a warmonger's trait; Imperialistic, owned by Kublai's grand-daddy Genghis, seems more apt for us bloodthirsty types. However, Creative allows you to land-grab early on and quickly establish a base for your military empire. You don't have to worry about Stonehenge or monuments; those hammers can go to other things--like barracks and units. And conquered cities will quickly regain most, if not all, of their lost territory; cheap libraries and theatres can help there, as can coliseums if my new subjects object to my rule. Or I could just whip 'em, of course.

The cheap libraries will be welcome in another regard, to help research, since neither of Kublai's traits nor his other characteristics offer any economic advantages. I expect to do a lot of pointy-stick research.

Like Carthage, the Mongols have a Horse Archer-based Unique Unit, the Keshik. While they're not much good for capturing cities, Keshiks do have the ability to quickly ride over all passable terrain as though it's flat land. They strike me--correct me if I'm wrong here--as pillagers par excellence, able to quickly strike into the heart of your enemy's territory, and able to just as quickly get out, using paths where the enemy's counters to mounted units (Spearmen and Pikemen) can't easily follow, such as forests, jungles, and hills. I'll be looking to use the Keshiks in this way, similar to how (ironically) I used Chariots against Kublai in the Mansa Musa game, to pillage his strategic resources and ruin his research so he couldn't bring any decent units to bear against me.

The tough part, as with Carthage, will be getting to the tech that enables the UU. As we saw in the Hannibal game, that's a long, torturous path: Hunting, Archery, Animal Husbandry, and finally Horseback Riding are required to green-light the Keshiks. Mongolia has one advantage, though: the civ starts with Hunting. Even so, I hate to admit it, but in my off-line games as Carthage, I experienced the greatest success by neglecting the UU. I prefer to trade for HBR rather than researching it; it's an expensive distraction and the AI frequently has it before me. With Mongolia, I might simply be looking to trade for it earlier than I would with other civs.

HBR is a higher priority for Mongolia, though, because it enables not only the UU but also the Unique Building, the onomatopaically-appropriate Ger. Mounted units coming out of a city with a cheap barracks and a Ger will have 6 XPs right off the bat--Level 3 (2 promotions) out of the gate. What promotions would be best here? I was thinking that a mix of Flanking I + II, Combat I + II, and a couple of Flanking I/Sentry units would be best, but I am willing to stand corrected. Combat I + Shock might also be good to counter the counters, which are melee units.

As for leveraging the starting techs: Hunting is obvious. Build a Scout first, explore and pop huts before anyone else does. Keep your fingers crossed and hope for a camp resource in the capital's fat cross. As for The Wheel--well, it's nice not to have to research it, and it gives the Workers something to do. Aside from that, should we pursue Agriculture/Animal Husbandry first, or Mining/Bronze Working? Remember Hunting makes AH slightly cheaper.

As for religion and wonders--meh. We'll capture both rather than researching or pursuing them, I suspect. For the most part, anyway, especially early in the game.

Most of Kublai's advantages will peter out over time, so it's going to be important to jump on some of the neighbours early. It will also make sense to prioritize Guilds (for Knights) and especially Military Tradition (for Cavalry) to maximize the benefits of the UB, and to war in each of those eras with mounted units. I find that if you get to those techs early enough, before anyone else, your mounted units are strong enough to do a decent job at city attacking. Given that it's a fractal map, I shall despair if we wind up isolated. I may even restart under those circumstances. But we'll see what we get and I shall do my best to abide by the group consensus.

I gather that Genghis is a favourite leader of several warmongers, but Kublai rarely gets mentioned--which is part of the reason I chose him for my first game as Mongolia. Nonetheless, all you Mongol Hordes should be able to chime in on the best use of the Keshik, the Ger, and the Aggressive trait; it's the Creative trait that adds the interesting wrinkle here. Let me know what you think!
 
Creative for cheap libraries should enable a decent SE from all the newly conquered cities so maybe cottage based commerce would be focussed on cash.
If you're going to capture religions then you could consider getting a prophet early to establish a shrine.

Maybe go for oracle HBR slingshot. Move capital to a nice shrine city and get rich rich rich.
 
Creative: The +2 culture and cheap libraries and theaters allow one to aggressively place cities and "steal" resources from a non-creative AI. It's war without the warmongering, although one can force a war with enough "close border" modifiers. Also the cheap theater and coliseum have synergy with warmongering by reducing war weariness. It's a very nice trait to have, one of my three favorite.

Ger: The UB should funnel your research towards a Construction bee-line should you be able to secure Elephants. Also Guilds should become a higher priority. The Keshiks are nice as deep-territory pillagers, but they can also range quickly to a city that isn't well-defended while your main force slugs it out elsewhere.

Aggressive: Nice to begin building barracks when possible for early city growth and turning out those two promotion units. C1/cover can be useful a long time at epic speed.
 
It goes without saying that you'll need horses, will you wait till the UU to leverage this ressource or will you use chariots early on to pillage and keep your neighbors in check? You could have a bunch of them pillage around and keep the neighbors from harvesting their metal ressources so that once the UU is greenlighted nobody can stop them.

You might consider restarting if you have absolutely no horses available, for the same reason you would from an isolated start. Or maybe have someone check the 4000BC save through the world builder so you don't lose time with an invalid setup.
 
My main problem when playing aggressive leaders is falling behind in technology due to over focus on war. This was particulary the case when I came up against Protective leaders early on. They seemed to counter my aggressiveness too easily which lead to a longer war than anticipated.

Would be interesting to see how you overcome these issues.
 
Protective leaders are indeed a problem, but it's also easier to leave them be since one of their traits won't help them much anyway. Instead Sisiutil should aim for a non-protective leader, pillage what he can if he manages to get Keshiks early and just use the cheap libraries to get a good tech pace. I'm not particularly fond of Horse Archers or replacements, but seeing how Keshiks benefit from the Ger too they might be more worth it. If there are enough trading partners it can even be useful to declare an early war on a second AI and just pillage them in view of easing future wars with them. There won't be much War Weariness from such a war with very few casualties.
 
Let's pray to the RNG gods that you don't have the Greeks or the Zulu's for neighbours :p LOL

Oracle Slingshot to HBR is an option... but chances are your not gonan go down the Religious route because you'd be focusing on military with your traits to conquer your closest nieghbour.

Here's an Idea, Beeline through Agriculture==>Animal Husbandry==>Writing, Build/Whip a library as qucikly as possible, your creative so it should be cheap, assign two Scientist Specialist, pop a GS and use him for an early Academy in your Capital for a early research boost which also leaves to option open to beeline to HBR if you want your UU & UB bad enough.

It's pretty obvious but's I'd go through the Agriculture==>Animal Husbandry because the techs are cheaper and it's more relevant ot your Civ, as Animal Husbandry reveal horses that you Civ need for it's UU, but it really all depends on the Map and Starting location, if you end up with a Gold/Gem/Silver plus lots of forest start then it'd be best to go through the mining bronze working route.

*Note I don't know what RNG means... can someone tell me? I get the idea it's the game's way to randomise resources, tiles and starting locations*
 
Mounted units will have 7XP (3 from barracks, 4 from Ger) rather than 6, but that doesn't have a huge impact on things.

Since Keshiks are significantly better than Numidian Cavalry, I'd be inclined to beeline HBR and Keshik-spam an opponent (assuming it's not an isolated start). 3-4 cities with whipped granaries, barracks and Gers pumping them out will decimate any opposition before the advent of longbows/elephants. Giving 1 or 2 senetry and the rest combat 2 (or combat 1 and shock for the odd one) is my preferred promotion line. Their terrain movement bonus is a major boost too, which shouldn't be underestimated. Part of the power of a Keshik rush comes from the speed with which your stack can tear through opposing lands.

Similar to the construction beeline, the Keshik beeline involves a few basic worker techs to get you up and running, then writing (build libraries where appropriate), HBR (to start building Gers) and archery to unlock Keshiks. Alphabet should follow and can be researched while you're stockpiling your 100% Keshik army for some minor extortion once war's underway. Getting libraries going before the war means you can keep attacking and claiming cities and land until your economy completely crashes, using conquest money and scientist specialists to drag you to currency and CoL). You'll be a bit behind in tech by that point, but have decimated 1-2 rivals and have an enormous empire at your proposal to catapult to victory.

This strategy works very well with Genghis on Monarch, and would work even better with Kublai thanks to his creative trait.

Creative was probably the best trait in the game before the patch added cheap libraries to it and I'd harness it by being as annoying as the Kublai AI was to you at the start of ALC 13. If the map lends itself to it, settle on their borders (particularly any non-creative neighbour who isn't an immediate target), pinch their resources, then crush them with your Keshiks or aggressive infantry.
 
Let's pray to the RNG gods that you don't have the Greeks or the Zulu's for neighbours :p LOL

...

*Note I don't know what RNG means... can someone tell me? I get the idea it's the game's way to randomise resources, tiles and starting locations*

Random Number Generator AKA Random Number Gods. It does what you say.
 
You might consider restarting if you have absolutely no horses available, for the same reason you would from an isolated start. Or maybe have someone check the 4000BC save through the world builder so you don't lose time with an invalid setup.

i've had hubby do that at times. do you think Mrs. S would be willing to check for you? i don't know if she'd consider it enabling an addiction *giggle*

HBR is a higher priority for Mongolia, though, because it enables not only the UU but also the Unique Building, the onomatopaically-appropriate Ger.

As for religion and wonders--meh. We'll capture both rather than researching or pursuing them, I suspect. For the most part, anyway, especially early in the game.

it's the Creative trait that adds the interesting wrinkle here. Let me know what you think!

yay! one of my favorite words! ps is "drawkcab" an onomatopoeia?

i rolled my eyes in doubt at that wonders sentence, until i read the "early in the game" qualifier. i know how you are!

creative is a trait that i hardly ever pick on purpose. but when i do have it, i really like having it and then miss it my next game. i look forward to seeing how you wrinkle it. and of course to all the rest of the stuff.
 
Creative makes that newly conquered cities expand their borders more quickly. Keshiks are little too weak. However there will be some tactical use of them. In my opinion you should grab HBR from the Oracle. Pay attention to how your foes advanced can be. Monarchy means trouble cause it's just one step to Feudalism. In that case you should prioritize HBR, just to make use of that UU. After HBR not Construction, but Currency, just to be able to maintain newly conquered cities.
 
I thought that the aggresive price cut also affected stables and that keshiks had 1 first strike but were not immune to first strikes. Also, i have been reading alot about whipping, and i was wondering if it is possible to do a high lvl game succesfully only occasionaly using the whip. because it is not fair to have any advantage over the AI. In my opnion if you cant win without abusing an AI flaw, go down a lvl and do with out that exploit.
 
I just started a game with Kublai to see how Keshiks would fit in. I got Mining and Bronze Working from huts (!!!), then proceeded toward an early Alphabet and later asked and received 5 turns of Iron Working from my good friend Julius Caesar, and the whole Priesthood from Ramesses. :eek: (Granted, he already built the Oracle, but it means I can research Code of Laws right away.) I went in the settings and double-checked to see if I'm on Monarch difficulty...... I am. I wish you the same luck!

About the Oracle slingshot toward HBR, I'm not too much in favor of it. Sure, you might pick up Mysticism & Poly if you want to build the Great Library, but it's not worth beelining toward Priesthood in my opinion. You have enough important early techs to research (Agri, AH, Mining, BW, Writing), you don't need the Oracle distraction. And since you're going to run lots of Scientists you're better off not polluting the pools with Prophet points. Stonehenge is also useless, as you'll want to go to Calendar to enable any happiness resources to help with wars and increased population to support scientists. Great Library and Great Scientists should be more of a priority.
 
In my opinion you should grab HBR from the Oracle.
This seems a bit wasteful considering HBR isn't that expensive a tech.

It'd involve researching mysticism, meditation/polytheism and priesthood (almost as many beakers), all of which are a bit...meh for Kublai. Plus you've then got to sink the hammers into the wonder that might be better invested elsewhere in preparation for war.
 
Hmmm...well, the way I see it, the only trouble the Keshiks will have is against protective archers defending a city. But considering that Flanking is a good line of promotions for them, it's a minor quibble. Does immunity to first strikes cancel them i.e. would archers then be vulnerable to the Keshik's first strike?

In any case, Kublai is pretty nice ever since they made Creative more builder-friendly with cheap libraries. Get the needed worker techs, snap up writing, and then get HBR. Or maybe flip them. What is sure is that both ought to be high-priority. Your Keshiks should be varied in their promotion lines. I would recommend against Oracle, we have an early UU that's a little hard to get to, we can't afford diverting beakers into religious techs, though I wouldn't neglect them because Theology has a certain appeal.

I wouldn't worry too much about being isolated...a bummer, yes, but that just means you lean on Creative to get your land filled out, work plenty of scientists, and rev up for war with cavalry. It'd be good to see you work an isolated start at some point, though I understand the mission of the ALCs and how that may not work for the purpose of these...
 
its fully possible to use keishiks tocapture cities... Here the other day i won a multiplayer game(team) on the back of a couple uberquick keishiks.
 
I don't have the skills to suggest an early route to HBR, but I do look forward to seeing you build early Kashiks and pillaging your enemy back an era.

I played a game as Kublai while ALC 13 was underway and thought I would do this too, but didn't have horses (not even close by!). It didn't go well...

Does anyone with a longer familiarity with the ALC games know what the earliest domination victory was? Maybe time to try and beat that? :cool:
 
Every single time I have played as the Mongolians, I have never been able to get horses hooked up in time to use the Keshik effectively. Hope you have better luck than me.
 
I look forward to this game, in part because I like to see mounted units being used in a significant role. I remember playing Civ 3, when knights completely dominated the medieval ages, and longbowmen were weak offensive units. Good times. Well, not really, but a little nostalgia never hurt anybody.
 
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