manu-fan
Emperor
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2006
- Messages
- 1,005
I really don't like it. 3 turns!!!!!
That's huge early on.
Couldn't you get a second city up and running there pretty quickly? Have we got some forests to chop to hurry a Settler?
Cheers.
-
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ALC Game 17, Take 2: Russia/Peter (BtS)
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
I really don't like it. 3 turns!!!!!
That's huge early on.
Couldn't you get a second city up and running there pretty quickly? Have we got some forests to chop to hurry a Settler?
Cheers.
mystiqblackcat
Chieftain
I'm not the best player, but I have read every one of sisiutil's ALC threads and I say let him go with his instinct, he seems to do pretty good most of the time. 
I think you've over-estimated the food available to a city 1N of the gold. Two 4 food tiles aren't going to go far given the rest of the terrain in that area. You'll want to work the gold as your third tile which uses up 2 food. What tile would you look to work with your fourth citizen? If it's another mined hill you'll be looking at slow growth from there. You aren't even going to have enough food to work all the mines until you get a lighthouse built.
Settling 1E of the gold gets you a third food source which means you can easily grow to size 6 (your early happy cap once the gold is hooked up) and still work a number of mines for early production.
This would mean that a later city would probably need to go 2E of the settler's starting location, but as you've mentioned the 2nd city site will likely be determined by where a strategic resource shows up.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Well, I thought it was an idea worth considering.
Dang, it's hard to decide. Like I said, too much of a good thing.
Now I'm leaning towards settling in place, building Scout-Settler-Worker, settling 1N of the Gold, and moving the capital later. I really like the idea of having a city on that plains hill to be a stellar GP Farm.
I just need to get back to my home PC and play the round and stop all this dithering. (EDIT: ^^^WHS)
Dang, it's hard to decide. Like I said, too much of a good thing.
Now I'm leaning towards settling in place, building Scout-Settler-Worker, settling 1N of the Gold, and moving the capital later. I really like the idea of having a city on that plains hill to be a stellar GP Farm.
I just need to get back to my home PC and play the round and stop all this dithering. (EDIT: ^^^WHS)
You don't intend to build any fishing boats?
If you do build a settler early won't you want to grab a strategic resource with it as opposed to the gold?
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
You don't intend to build any fishing boats?
If you do build a settler early won't you want to grab a strategic resource with it as opposed to the gold?
Now that you mention it, the food would help with the Worker/Settler builds. Duh.
I think what I may do is settle in place and build Scout - Fishing Boat - Worker - Settler while researching Fishing - BW - Wheel. Once we know where copper is (or isn't), I'll decide on the 2nd city. Basically, if copper is within reach, the 2nd city goes there; if it isn't, gold city will be 2nd to help research things like Archery, Animal Husbandry, and, if necessary, Iron Working.
It would be nice if the 2nd city could snag the gold, crabs, and copper, but the chances of that are probably quite slim. I think there's a good chance of horses being somewhere in those plains tiles, however. Whether they'll be withing reach of a gold/crab city is another story.
Okay, now I'm feeling like I have a viable plan rather than just wild speculation. I'll play and post the update tonight, promise.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
How I would approach it:
-Settle 1NW
-Tech: Fishing-BW
-Build: Worker-Workboat-Workboat-Settler (chop)
-Strategy: Get gold on line to super power research. Try and find some copper for attack/defense. Scout around for city placement, but try not to lose starting scout.
-Settle 1NW
-Tech: Fishing-BW
-Build: Worker-Workboat-Workboat-Settler (chop)
-Strategy: Get gold on line to super power research. Try and find some copper for attack/defense. Scout around for city placement, but try not to lose starting scout.
You'll want to whip the worker since that is the only real way to benefit from the Expansive worker bonus now.
As to research you've got a couple of things to consider after BW.
If you don't find a nearby source of copper how long do you think you can put off AH? If you do end up founding the city N of gold as your second city it's going to need a border expansion to work its seafood, so Mysticism will be a high priority. So in this case you're probably looking at Fishing->BW->Mysticism->AH.
If the second city can claim a copper source then Mysticism may still be needed depending on the circumstances. Then Wheel for hooking up the copper.
Wow! I saw it was at page 6 and I was sure the starting position would be settled. I'm actually glad it is not.
Settle 1 NW!!
Early techs from gold commerce + extra early happy are HUGE.
Remember the bird in hand philosophy. You have a fantastic city staring you in the face 1NW. Stop thinking about all this stuff you could possibly do mid/late game! Like you have enough information to decide on a GP farm and a capital move. Sheesh
Go 1 NW!
GS
Settle 1 NW!!
Early techs from gold commerce + extra early happy are HUGE.
Remember the bird in hand philosophy. You have a fantastic city staring you in the face 1NW. Stop thinking about all this stuff you could possibly do mid/late game! Like you have enough information to decide on a GP farm and a capital move. Sheesh
Go 1 NW!
GS
I like 1NW because you get the best of all worlds -- early gold, excellent food (to become a later GP farm), excellent production (because wonders also give GPPs), and a lot of forest for either early chops or a later National Park. There are only two non-hill, non-forest, non-water tiles at 1NW (and half the water is seafood -- well worth being coastal).
With such dense food and hammer sources, you can easily switch between specialists and mines, get a necessary building or wonder cranked out, and go back to being a GP farm.
If you don't get the gold now, you're probably not going to for a long time -- the odds of your military resources just happening to be next to it are pretty low. It's possible, but not worth banking on it.
1NW is, IMO, the best choice for both an early capital and a late game GP farm. Start with seafood and gold for commerce, food, and hammers, to get things kickstarted, then the rest will wind up being easier. Finish with food and either specialists or hammers.
Really, how often does your GP farm actually work all the land around it?
1NW, worker/workboat/workboat/settler. Gets food, commerce, and hammers very early on. You need the commerce until you can get writing, at the very least. If you need to find something other than copper, you'll be loving that gold in your capital.
With such dense food and hammer sources, you can easily switch between specialists and mines, get a necessary building or wonder cranked out, and go back to being a GP farm.
If you don't get the gold now, you're probably not going to for a long time -- the odds of your military resources just happening to be next to it are pretty low. It's possible, but not worth banking on it.
1NW is, IMO, the best choice for both an early capital and a late game GP farm. Start with seafood and gold for commerce, food, and hammers, to get things kickstarted, then the rest will wind up being easier. Finish with food and either specialists or hammers.
Really, how often does your GP farm actually work all the land around it?
1NW, worker/workboat/workboat/settler. Gets food, commerce, and hammers very early on. You need the commerce until you can get writing, at the very least. If you need to find something other than copper, you'll be loving that gold in your capital.
It's his game, not ours. too many suggestions make him confused. many good advises are ignored, just count how many people vote 1NW. I would rather watch him playing and posting instead of typing anything more.
Very valid point. Although I favor settling in place, I am no super-expert, and do concede the merits of 1 NW, and that being the consensus, think that is what should be done.
This is however, somewhat of a group game, and I (and I am sure many others) appreciate all the work Sisiutil puts into it. I have noticed in the past that Sis does tend to follow the trend of advice from us posters, and that this often causes some midstream changes that stunt our (Sis's) empire's growth.
Changing techs midstream is horribly inefficient, and Sisiutil, I suggest that this game you always end a round the turn you finish a tech. I've groaned again and again when you switch your research after investing 5-10 turns. I groan even louder in my own games when I realize I was stupid to research a tech and switch after a few turns. End your rounds very shortly after a tech is researched, and this problem will disappear.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
It's his game, not ours. too many suggestions make him confused. many good advises are ignored, just count how many people vote 1NW. I would rather watch him playing and posting instead of typing anything more.
Readin' ya loud and clear. First round played, update to follow a little later tonight. Looks like it will be an interesting game--copper's there, but in a bit of a tough spot. Stay tuned.
Settle in place.
.......nm, Im too late, lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by EEE_BOY
It's his game, not ours. too many suggestions make him confused. many good advises are ignored, just count how many people vote 1NW. I would rather watch him playing and posting instead of typing anything more.
Personally, I couldn't care less what Sisiutil does in the game (no offense). It's the debates that keep me reading these threads
.......nm, Im too late, lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by EEE_BOY
It's his game, not ours. too many suggestions make him confused. many good advises are ignored, just count how many people vote 1NW. I would rather watch him playing and posting instead of typing anything more.
Personally, I couldn't care less what Sisiutil does in the game (no offense). It's the debates that keep me reading these threads
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Round 1: 4000 BC to 3175 BC
Okay, okay, after all that back-and-forth discussion about where to found the capital, I decided that 1NW sounded best after all:
2 clams, 1 fish, 1 crab, 1 corn, 1 gold, 4 plains, 2 plains hills, 2 irrigable grasslands, 6 forests. Not a bad capital by any stretch of the imagination.
First build? A Worker, to get the gold on-line ASAP:
And as you can see, the first tech to be researched was, of course, Fishing.
Meanwhile, my Scout popped that hut for a map. I was less than thrilled, but it did show me where the nearest neighbour was:
Time to do a meet and greet with the Romans:
Dang! I love playing as Julius, but I certainly don't like having him next door. I'm thinking he has to die long before he gets anywhere near Iron Working, and as you'll see, the rest of the round largely confirmed that belief.
Oh, yeah, I took one of VoU's recommendations to heart and set the autosave to do its work every turn instead of every 4, just in case I forget to save the game file for posting at the end of the round. So you'll see that notification a lot.
In 3750, my first tech was finished...
The next one up was Bronze Working for chopping, slavery, copper, and Axemen.
In 3625 BC I got news that the first religion was founded:
By the way, I'm not playing with BtS' "choose your religion" option checked. I played with it on in my sole off-line BtS game thus far, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. On the one hand, it was kind of cool to see leaders choosing historically appropriate religions--the Asians favouring Taoism and Confucianism, for example, and the Ottomans preferring Islam.
On the other hand, I'm so used to associating a specific religion with the discovery of a tech. Someone founded Taoism around the time that Monotheism is normally discovered and I just about freaked thinking someone had gotten to Philosophy that early! Then I remembered the setting and calmed down. But that might make the game slightly more challenging by removing my certainty regarding which tech just got researched somewhere based on the religion that just got founded.
In 3525 Moscow's borders popped and I decided to work the 3 food tile, the corn. I wanted the population to grow quickly so I could start working that gold tile ASAP.
You might notice the gold in the treasury growing. My Scout popped three more huts, all for gold: 41 + 35 +32.
Buddhism was founded a couple of turns later:
In 3250 Moscow grew to size 2. The city governor assigned the new citizen to a 2F 1H grassland forest tile:
Yeesh. This is why I don't trust automation. By the way, I've noticed that the city governor in BtS is not content to wait for population growth before interfering. Now the AI has an annoying habit of shifting tile assignments as soon as a tile improvement is completed. Does anyone know of a way to turn that off?
Look at the difference shifting to the gold tile made to both research and to production:
Granted, growth is slowed, but the fishing boat will soon make up for that. Should I work the fish or the 1N clams first? The clams will bring in more commerce, being coastal, and be available on the turn that the work boat is complete. The fish, on the other hand, will bring in 1 more food than the clams (and 1 less commerce, being the sole ocean tile in the BFC). Another tough choice--basically choosing between a very slight but potentially significant advantage to growth or to commerce for a few turns.
In 3200, Bronze Working was completed:
I switched civics immediately:
And where is the closest source of copper you might ask? Right next to the Romans, of course:
Beware the Ides of March, Caesar. I might not have metal for a blade to stick into your ribs just yet, but I'll find something serviceable, you can be sure of it.
By the way, doesn't Rome look like another great GP farm? With all those flood plains, 2 clams, and three fish (not to mention what might be in the 3 ocean tiles we can't yet see), it might even be better than Moscow! Not as much production, though, with only two hills, both of them offering only 3 hammers each. Still, the Maori Statues could go there.
Oops, there I go, counting chickens again.
So here's a look at the capital:
And here's a look at the map:
It's a good-sized land mass, but it looks like an island nonetheless. Only the gold and sugar for happiness--a possible problem. Marble for the Great Library to the south, though. And the island chains might link me to other civs to prevent this from being an isolated start. I think the land, overall, looks very promising for a specialist economy. There's a good amount of food, flood plains, and rivers for irrigation. I'm betting that any other strategic resources are in that deceptively-empty strip of no-man's land between Julie and me, and/or in the south.
So what next? I selected The Wheel as the next research target, but I haven't committed any flasks to it and could change to something else. Should I go after Animal Husbandry next, in hopes of horses to chariot-rush Caesar? I really think he has to die, and soon--the island just isn't big enough for both of us. But if he gets that copper hooked up quickly, he'll likely have Spearmen, who will put paid to a chariot rush.
Archery for an archer rush? Surely you jest.
Iron Working then? The gold will help me get to it quickly. Should I make the game ironic by adopting the strategy I usually use when playing as Julius and turn it against him? That is, research The Wheel next, then Iron Working, hook up iron, build Swords and Axes (in the absence, I hope, of Praetorians) and pounce?
Of course, if there's no Iron around, this game could end up looking like the last one awfully quickly.
Okay, okay, after all that back-and-forth discussion about where to found the capital, I decided that 1NW sounded best after all:
2 clams, 1 fish, 1 crab, 1 corn, 1 gold, 4 plains, 2 plains hills, 2 irrigable grasslands, 6 forests. Not a bad capital by any stretch of the imagination.
First build? A Worker, to get the gold on-line ASAP:
And as you can see, the first tech to be researched was, of course, Fishing.
Meanwhile, my Scout popped that hut for a map. I was less than thrilled, but it did show me where the nearest neighbour was:
Time to do a meet and greet with the Romans:
Dang! I love playing as Julius, but I certainly don't like having him next door. I'm thinking he has to die long before he gets anywhere near Iron Working, and as you'll see, the rest of the round largely confirmed that belief.
Oh, yeah, I took one of VoU's recommendations to heart and set the autosave to do its work every turn instead of every 4, just in case I forget to save the game file for posting at the end of the round. So you'll see that notification a lot.
In 3750, my first tech was finished...
The next one up was Bronze Working for chopping, slavery, copper, and Axemen.
In 3625 BC I got news that the first religion was founded:
By the way, I'm not playing with BtS' "choose your religion" option checked. I played with it on in my sole off-line BtS game thus far, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. On the one hand, it was kind of cool to see leaders choosing historically appropriate religions--the Asians favouring Taoism and Confucianism, for example, and the Ottomans preferring Islam.
On the other hand, I'm so used to associating a specific religion with the discovery of a tech. Someone founded Taoism around the time that Monotheism is normally discovered and I just about freaked thinking someone had gotten to Philosophy that early! Then I remembered the setting and calmed down. But that might make the game slightly more challenging by removing my certainty regarding which tech just got researched somewhere based on the religion that just got founded.
In 3525 Moscow's borders popped and I decided to work the 3 food tile, the corn. I wanted the population to grow quickly so I could start working that gold tile ASAP.
You might notice the gold in the treasury growing. My Scout popped three more huts, all for gold: 41 + 35 +32.
Buddhism was founded a couple of turns later:
In 3250 Moscow grew to size 2. The city governor assigned the new citizen to a 2F 1H grassland forest tile:
Yeesh. This is why I don't trust automation. By the way, I've noticed that the city governor in BtS is not content to wait for population growth before interfering. Now the AI has an annoying habit of shifting tile assignments as soon as a tile improvement is completed. Does anyone know of a way to turn that off?
Look at the difference shifting to the gold tile made to both research and to production:
Granted, growth is slowed, but the fishing boat will soon make up for that. Should I work the fish or the 1N clams first? The clams will bring in more commerce, being coastal, and be available on the turn that the work boat is complete. The fish, on the other hand, will bring in 1 more food than the clams (and 1 less commerce, being the sole ocean tile in the BFC). Another tough choice--basically choosing between a very slight but potentially significant advantage to growth or to commerce for a few turns.
In 3200, Bronze Working was completed:
I switched civics immediately:
And where is the closest source of copper you might ask? Right next to the Romans, of course:
Beware the Ides of March, Caesar. I might not have metal for a blade to stick into your ribs just yet, but I'll find something serviceable, you can be sure of it.
By the way, doesn't Rome look like another great GP farm? With all those flood plains, 2 clams, and three fish (not to mention what might be in the 3 ocean tiles we can't yet see), it might even be better than Moscow! Not as much production, though, with only two hills, both of them offering only 3 hammers each. Still, the Maori Statues could go there.
Oops, there I go, counting chickens again.
So here's a look at the capital:
And here's a look at the map:
It's a good-sized land mass, but it looks like an island nonetheless. Only the gold and sugar for happiness--a possible problem. Marble for the Great Library to the south, though. And the island chains might link me to other civs to prevent this from being an isolated start. I think the land, overall, looks very promising for a specialist economy. There's a good amount of food, flood plains, and rivers for irrigation. I'm betting that any other strategic resources are in that deceptively-empty strip of no-man's land between Julie and me, and/or in the south.
So what next? I selected The Wheel as the next research target, but I haven't committed any flasks to it and could change to something else. Should I go after Animal Husbandry next, in hopes of horses to chariot-rush Caesar? I really think he has to die, and soon--the island just isn't big enough for both of us. But if he gets that copper hooked up quickly, he'll likely have Spearmen, who will put paid to a chariot rush.
Archery for an archer rush? Surely you jest.
Iron Working then? The gold will help me get to it quickly. Should I make the game ironic by adopting the strategy I usually use when playing as Julius and turn it against him? That is, research The Wheel next, then Iron Working, hook up iron, build Swords and Axes (in the absence, I hope, of Praetorians) and pounce?
Of course, if there's no Iron around, this game could end up looking like the last one awfully quickly.
Ha ha. Counting your chickens... Or are you already considering Rome a dead CIV?
Conqueror78
Chieftain
Sisiutil:
Interesting developments.
I urge HA-->hook up horses-->chariot rush.
He won't have too many spears, I think, and it'll be early enough that he won't be able to build too many before you've annihilated him.
I'm really worried about hoping for iron--maybe too influenced by the last game, but you seem to share the concern.
Let's show there's still some blood in the super-early rush!
Interesting developments.
I urge HA-->hook up horses-->chariot rush.
He won't have too many spears, I think, and it'll be early enough that he won't be able to build too many before you've annihilated him.
I'm really worried about hoping for iron--maybe too influenced by the last game, but you seem to share the concern.
Let's show there's still some blood in the super-early rush!
