ALC Game 17, Take 2: Russia/Peter (BtS)

Post Mortem

First off, a few screen shots. The power graph for the history of the game:



Even before I took on Gandhi I was ahead of him in power. And, somewhat surprising, I was ahead of Shaka as well for most of the game. Usually he, like a lot of other Aggressive leaders, spam so many units that I don't catch up unless I'm playing as a determined warmonger too, and sometimes not even then. Maybe BtS is indeed making the AI play differently--but not necessarily better, based upon what we saw in this game.

I also forgot to mention in the game update post that a huge frickin' world war broke out around the end of the 1800s, with the Chinese block, Shaka, and Saladin ganging up on Tokugawa and Wang Kon. Shaka captured 2 or 3 Japanese cities and Toku took them right back before the war was done. Gandhi and I just sat back and watched. Anyway, that accounts for some of the power fluctuations you see above at that time.

In some ways, I think, the more sophisticated diplomatic system is a bit flawed in Civ IV. In Civ II, if you started becoming the world's only superpower, all the AI civs began to dislike you and make military pacts against you. Sometimes they'd dogpile you in a big all-out war to end all wars. In this game, the only chance the AI civs had for victory would have been to pull a Civ II--gang together and simultaneously attack me. Instead they attacked each other. :rolleyes: The AI doesn't like taking on a hugely powerful civ even if it's the only way to win the game, nor is it likely to attack its "friends". While there's been much said about the "better AI", maybe in some respects it could use some dumbing down.

But I digress.

Espionage:



Again, I was way ahead here from early on, no doubt as a result of prioritizing Courthouses in all of my cities. I like the new espionage system--there's so much you can do with it, including deciding to largely ignore it. I didn't in this game, and it was very valuable to know what other civs were researching in particular. I'm hoping in a future game I'll build the Great Wall and we'll see what sort of mischief I can get into with an early Great Spy.

Demographics:



No real surprises there, given my commanding lead for most of the latter half of the game.

Top 5 Cities and Wonders:



Another sign of my dominance of this game. I can't remember the last time I ended an ALC with 4/5 of the top cities.

Statistics:



17 cities is a lot to found for me. The map certainly encouraged it. I could have founded more--I never did build the eastern fishing villages on that northern tundra island. Towards the end of the game, though, extra cities seemed superfluous. Same with extra seafood for Sid's Sushi Co; I canceled a couple of deals for extra seafood because they decreased rather than increased my revenue. I think someone said earlier that a 20-item benefit (20 extra food, in this case) is optimal, and that appeared to be the case.

My score:



Not my best ever, but darned respectable. I jacked it up as it was with all those late wonders. I was in such a dominant position even by the mid-game that I could have pursued any victory condition I wanted.

In fact, I did some things in this game that may have lowered the final score in order to stay true to the spirit of the ALCs. I didn't need to invade Gandhi, but I wanted to show off the UU. I didn't need to pursue a space ship win, but I wanted to utilize the UB. It would be interesting to go back and play the game without the invasion of India and see if I could launch the space ship earlier, or to play as more of a warmonger from earlier on and see how quickly a domination or even conquest win could have been achieved.

This game definitely showed how powerful the SE can be. I finally felt in this game like I've achieved a certain comfort level with that very demanding strategy. It also showed how very important the starting position and other map elements (surrounding geography, rivals) can be. Caesar was a relative pushover, unlike Ragnar and his 3 frickin' gem mines in the previous attempt. And the land I had was perfect for the SE, again unlike the harsh terrain of the previous game. The map must get as much credit for the win as I do.

Also sharing credit for the win is everybody who contributed. The greatest success of this game was not the victory, but the very thorough debates about many of the new features from which we should all benefit and enjoy the game even more. Though I had played a couple of off-line games with Beyond the Sword before and during this ALC, I had no idea how to properly use such new features as colonies, Privateers, or corporations. AI also appreciated the advice on how to maximize use of things like Golden Ages and Cristo Redentor, even if I didn't necessarily take advantage of the insights this time around. I hope to do so in the future.

And the good news is that there are still other new game elements to exploit. We didn't really take advantage of some of the new military units (I can't wait to use Paratroopers in an ALC!), and I think there's a lot more we can collectively explore with the espionage system and the new wonders such as the Apostolic Palace.

That being said, I'm going to take a little time before starting the next ALC (Spain/Isabella). I would like to try out Solver's unofficial patch in some off-line games before deciding whether or not to use it for these games. Linked to that is whether I should move up to Emperor level; if Solver's patch makes the Monarch-level game more challenging, I may delay a level jump a little while longer. I also need to start posting my story updates in Princes of the Universe; some of you following that thread have been clamoring for more material, and I feel bad that the new expansion pack meant that you've had to wait. :blush:

So be patient in waiting for the next ALC--I won't take too long, maybe a week or so, but I'll get there. In the meantime, tell me what you thought of this game, and be sure to give me your thoughts on Solver's patch, the difficulty level, map types, and so on over in the ALC Bullpen thread.
 
Great Win!!!

if you wanted to use the AP then a game where you found a religion or two would be the best chance

PS Solvers patch should definently be used
 
Well, Izzie is well-disposed to make good use of the Apostolic Palance....
 
Congrats on the victory and thanks for all your hard work in posting all of this. I'm a newb to Civ IV and I've learned a lot from lurking here.

It seems like centuries ago we were watching you decide where to build the copper city and here you are, visiting the stars! :)

I think my biggest mistake is thinking I have to build every improvement in every city. That was a good strategy in Civ I but but I think it's killing me in this game. I'm looking forward to the next lesson!
 
There's no doubt that the RNG was much kinder in this game than in the previous try with Peter and that contributed a lot to the ease of this win. But there were a couple of significant early decisions that were a big factor. Moving the initial settler to get the gold in Moscow's fat cross was critical as without the gold Iron Working would never have been researched before the second city was founded. Also deciding to chop and whip the first settler to get St. Pete founded before Caesar's second city may well have been a key to sealing Rome's fate. And deciding to found St. Pete in the position that would work better in the long term was a major advantage. I know there are a number of people who complain about large amount of discussion and little action in the early stages of the game, but the decisions made at that point often make a major difference in the outcome.

In hindsight, once Rome fell this game was really over. With two very high food cities the planned SE was likely to be very successful. Getting the GE in time to build pyramids was a little lucky but given how things turned out the pyramids probably weren't necessary in this game. If my math is correct you produced 30 GPs during the game :eek: , so I think your research rate would have been just fine without Representation for the early part of the game.

I think corporations and some of the other BtS changes are going to alter our thinking of what a good IW city is. Yakutsk's 102 base :hammers: :)eek:) would not have been possible pre-BtS.

Moving forward I would definitely go with Solver's patch (unless an official patch is released before then of course). I do think Solver's patch goes too far in lowering corporation costs, but the rest of the items in the patch look to be positive. If you are going to switch to a Hemispheres map for the Isabella game I would think twice about moving up to Emperor. It is much harder to invade AI neighbors during the early to mid game (if you don't get to them before they have any resources hooked up). If you get boxed in you'll find it much harder to fight your way out.
 
Lol yeah use solvers patch but the patch is constantly updated so make sure you tell us which version of the patch you are using, also include the fix where Military Academies can only be built once you research military Science.
 
Fun and super-informative, Sisiutil.
Interesting point about the difference between Civ. II and Civ. IV diplomacy. We always counsel the human player to "go for the strongest rival"--strange that that doesn't seem to factor into the AI's "calculation."
Looking forward to Spain/Izzy, but definitely take your time!
 
Yes you had a very fortunate starting situation, secured with the correct follow-through per Validators' notes. Based on my experience you will not normally be so lucky, though I play with random climate/sea levels (Large/BigSmall/Epic) which can create some unexpected and challenging start situations (for ex. alone on a sizable continent consisting almost entirely of desert traversed by several lengthy floodplains rivers).

Definitely test out Solvers' patch with corps before doing another ALC.

Great Wall is great! In fact I was getting addicted to building it, since it is certainly easy enough to bag before the AI does if it is prioritized. However I have made it a rule to never bomb with the GSpy if I get it. This is just too gross an advantage to the point of being a virtual exploit. Bomb an advanced civ and stealing 4-5 techs is just too overpowered, especially given the overall slower AI tech pace.

Besides, the GW is already quite powerful. Consider:

- hammers saved from high-risk, low exp yield barb busting that can be put elsewhere;
- raid barbs by choice instead of fighting reactively for exp;
- fits passive-aggressive postures: let the AI come at you within your borders, have GGs pop at twice the rate;
- and if you pop the GSpy there are 2 other powerful uses early on: settle for +25 ep for both an early surge and for the life of the game, or the GSpy can be used to scout out a menacing AI neighbor early on since they can never be detected.


This for the bullpen...and congrats, you deserved a break after the previous thrashing:)
 
I reckon next time you play SE you should settle most of you're early Great People as Super specialist in a super scientist city because the AI techs a lot slower and the AI doesn't have much to tech trade, with the exception of Philosophy for Pacifism civic.|

Assuming you have a Library, Academy and running Representation that's 16 beakers a turn for a Settled GS

Base 6 + 3 (Represenation) + 50%(academy) + (25% Library) = 16beakers

And that still doesn't include the science slider and you'll be running them for about 300-400 turns looking at the game you've finished which ended at turn 520.

16*300 = 4800 beakers

Even running a Super Specialist for 200 turns gives you more beakers in the long run compared to a bulb.

16* 200= 3200 beakers

These still don't include the science slider and other modifiers in the late game like Universities, Oxford, Observatories and Labs.
 
Sisiutil, isn't that your highest scoring space victory? Anyways great game, that land was very good SE land, and the result showed, this game was never close...
 
Sisiutil, isn't that your highest scoring space victory?

Good catch, yes it is, though the Asoka and Mansa Musa games were close behind. Considering that a space win now takes at least an extra 16 turns, though, that's pretty good.
 
You were slightly fortunbate in the island that you had and that Gandhi was the civ on the continent to your west.

You positioned your cities well and demonstrated the importance of thinking where to found each city. Caesar might not have fallen so quickly had the ai already started with a settler pre-built, but I'm not convinced the outcome would have been different.

For players who maximise population early, the Apostolic Palace opens the prospect of a very early diplomatic victory. It's a wonder the player has to build or take.

Your blitz through India was at exactly the right time with the right number of troops. You only lost two units. You demonstrated the way a stack of doom should work.You took down your only serious rival.
 
Regarding the "better" AI, I thought that there were effectively 2 AI builds. One for the aggressive AI switch and one for the default. The Aggressive AI switch is now the "Better AI" switch which isn't more aggressive per se but does spam more units and techs less well. The default setting is actually less aggressive than previous Civ4 releases but better at building and teching. Anyway, Blake posted something along these lines on Apolyton near when BTS was released.

I would advocate using the "Aggressive AI" switch in the next ALC game. Unless you actually want to achieve a builder-type win.
 
Congrats for a relatively easy qoing fast, high-score space victory.:goodjob:

Overall, a great showcase of Peter's traits in a SE along with the Russian UB. The naval oriented map plus BTS colonial maintenance provided an extra historical flair.;)

I suppose if the competition was tighter, the later period could prove more fun as well as a more intuitive experience of BTS modern era changes. Some BTS introduced leaders would be welcome as well.
Oh well, i'm sure the RNG will honor us in such a manner in the next ALC.:D

I think attributing the game ease towards the map alone is a bit to much. I mean wouldnt everyone prefer Julius starting position to Peter's...
Besides a game to an extent what one makes of it. Try playing a builder/expander's start and have fun dealing with Julius afterwards.:D


Solver's patch appears to fix a good number of bugs and i'd recomend it for that reason, but frankly the copros cost doesnt need a fix. I mean whats wrong with deploying copros using a bit of strategy, rather than spamming them everywhere.

I am not sure about agressive AI either. I mean much of the fun in this ALC was spoiled by lack of competing AI teching/building rather than lack of military aggresiveness.

Anyhow, enjoy a well deserved rest and we re all looking forward to Cathys ALC.;)
 
Solver's patch appears to fix a good number of bugs and i'd recomend it for that reason, but frankly the copros cost doesnt need a fix. I mean whats wrong with deploying copros using a bit of strategy, rather than spamming them everywhere.
Agree with pretty much everything, but especially this last bit.

I think exempting corps from inflation unbalances them. Any empire generally has a few cities that really benefit from the boost to food or production they can offer, but being able to spam them everywhere with nothing to offset that confers too much of an advantage. The main thing that's broken with them is the AI tendency to spam them everywhere and cripple itself financially.
 
I think exempting corps from inflation unbalances them. Any empire generally has a few cities that really benefit from the boost to food or production they can offer, but being able to spam them everywhere with nothing to offset that confers too much of an advantage. The main thing that's broken with them is the AI tendency to spam them everywhere and cripple itself financially.

Corporations already have disadvantages: Having to use a great person, having to research a particular tech (not always on a beeline), maintenance costs, the costs in :hammers: and :gold: for spreading it and not being able to use State Property if necessary. Considering the large investment, I'd say a domestic corporation should be beneficial most of the time and a foreign corporation could be beneficial at times as well.

The designers have indicated that corporations will be strengthened by addressing the inflation although the exact method and balance remains to be seen. In my opinion, Solver's patch is closer to what we will see in the next patch and should be used until then.
 
GG sis. Since you're playing as izzy next, do you, um, wanna... I dunno, go out and see a movie sometime? :)
 
GG sis. Since you're playing as izzy next, do you, um, wanna... I dunno, go out and see a movie sometime? :)

Sure!

I'll let you know which one it was and what I thought of it. ;)
 
Regarding the "better" AI, I thought that there were effectively 2 AI builds. One for the aggressive AI switch and one for the default. The Aggressive AI switch is now the "Better AI" switch which isn't more aggressive per se but does spam more units and techs less well. The default setting is actually less aggressive than previous Civ4 releases but better at building and teching. Anyway, Blake posted something along these lines on Apolyton near when BTS was released.

I would advocate using the "Aggressive AI" switch in the next ALC game. Unless you actually want to achieve a builder-type win.

I've read Blake's comments, and I posted my thoughts on the new Aggressive AI in the Bullpen thread, but just to reiterate:

I think the best way to play the game and to get the AI to compete with you is to select the Aggressive AI setting that matches your leader and chosen strategy. Specifically, if you're planning on playing more of a teching/building game (say you're playing as Mansa Musa, for example), then leave this setting off. Given that the new Aggressive AI will spam units, tech slower, and fight amongst themselves as much as with you (or even more, if you play your diplomatic cards right), leaving this setting on while pursuing more of a builder game is probably unfair. You'll leave the AI in the dust. Just imagine this last game, but played with Aggressive AI. I would have likely been even more ahead on my splendidly isolated island while Toku and the rest drove their economies into the ground.

On the other hand, if you plan on playing more of a warmonger's game (say you're playing as Julius Caesar or practically any of the Aggressive, Charismatic, or Imperialistic leaders), then turn the setting on. The AI should then present you with a more formidable challenge, as your invading armies will face more opposing units, and you run a higher risk of getting dog-piled. You'll also find it harder to get a peace treaty if you need a breather for some reason.

Mind you, this is based mostly on Blake's description. I've played only one off-line game with the Aggressive AI, so I don't have too much experience to draw upon there... yet.
 
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