All Leaders Challenge Game 19: Sumer/Gilgamesh

I can get behind the idea of nuking shaka. One time during the modern era he showed up at my doorstep with an Infantry/Cavalry/Cannon stack roughly 120 strong, total. 2 ICBMs destroyed it the turn after it set foot into my lands, and cleared out his border city quite nicely too.

Not that I agree with the analysis that it's your only hope, but it is one way to get a win, and goddamn I wanna relive the moment of millions of Zulu soldiers experiencing the power of the atom.

Just be careful. In BtS, if enough nukes get launched (I think the number is 20, not positive though) the earth cracks and it is game over for everyone.
 
And you might have to build the UN to ensure that nukes aren't banned. (What are the mechanics of defying a UN resolution? KMad?)

*giggle* asking me, like i go around defying UN resolutions! :crazyeye: actually i don't know. the pedia says "an unhappiness penalty in your cities with the AP religion" for defying an AP resolution, and that one is 5 :mad:. for UN it says "a major unhappiness penalty in your cities". obviously it won't be limited to only cities with X religion, but i don't know whether the word major means it's more than 5 :mad: or they just threw that in there to make it sound different. can't WB test it easily, since you can't defy resolutions you put up for a vote of course.

Just be careful. In BtS, if enough nukes get launched (I think the number is 20, not positive though) the earth cracks and it is game over for everyone.

i've read several people say that, but i've also seen people say that it's only the case in a certain scenario. i think it's called Next War or something? i haven't had major nukefests in BtS, and i've never played that scenario, i'm just going by what my friend's neighbor's cousin's dentist posted. if you have seen it not in the scenario please let me know. i haven't seen anybody confirm that it happened in the normal game.
 
^^ UN defying causes 5 :mad: in every city... besides that is similar to the AP defy.

And the earth cracking as a egg is a Next war mod feature only ( warning at 6th nuke, barbs winning a Dom victory ( :confused: why Dom? Conquest would not be better? ) in 19th launch, Jon Shaefer dixit... ([rant] 2 days after the BtS launch.... why people continue to say this ? [/rant])
 
There are elephants on the other continent. Trading for ivory enables war elephants.

The other pile of city ruins; the city that is not ex-Tartar.

Fighting on for 4 turns before peace could net us NY, Buffalo (razed) and any other city. Exchanging an equal number of units is better for Sumeria, since Washington's losing cities and prepare for the second phase. My prefered option would have been to fight to the finish, but without a counter to Washington's catapults there's a neccessity for peace.
 
Actually, I think Scarredroman has a good point.
Fighting for 6 more turns (time till SoD reaches city) could net us at least one more city, and a larger city in the peace deal. Spending the 10 turns amassing extra units would be highly beneficial-in most of my games (given that they're at Prince) the AI switches to less Units and more Buildings. If the AI still does that, you'll be at a serious advantage. Pumping out a Mace per turn, even if putting your cities into starvation, is the way to go. 10 Maces with City Raider I/II can put a serious dent into war efforts, as well as Protective longbows.
 
I think you're doing a great job, Sis. The United States is toast, one way or another (I'm just talking about the game here. Honest.) But I think this might be the game in which we see a serious, competitive nuclear war. I don't know how else you can beat Shaka. I have no idea how this would play out; that's why I read the ALC. But I suggest teching towards whatever makes nukewar possible. And you might have to build the UN to ensure that nukes aren't banned. (What are the mechanics of defying a UN resolution? KMad?)

You won the circumnav bonus, right? That'll help you get some guys over to Shaka's ruined, glowing lands. Depending on how things fall, you can either dominate him or raze his cities and build a nice starship without significant competition. Good luck.

Intriguing idea. I haven't read every ALC but has there ever been a win that was enabled by a devastating nuclear strike on a key opponent? Sis has a lot of work to do to finish off Washington, but at the rate Shaka is going he could vassalize his entire continent then turn the evil-eye to Sumeria. If he is huge in military then maybe nuclear war would be the only way.


However I think Sis would want input everyone before making this decision and I can't picture a majority thinking nuking a rival continent would be a good option. Rather distasteful IMO.....
 
^^ UN defying causes 5 :mad: in every city... besides that is similar to the AP defy.

i know that you only become a full member again when you vote for a resolution that passes. i'd think there's a time limit on the :mad: penalty, since otherwise it's completely exploitable. the resident or SecG could just choose to not put any resolutions up for vote and you'd be stuck, or if that didn't count, he could pick options he thinks you'd defy.

do they stack if you defy a second resolution while you're still suffering the :mad: penalty from the first one (if that's a situation that can happen)? i'd rather find out by reading than in my own actual game or S's, thanks! now back to your regularly scheduled ALC...
 
i know that you only become a full member again when you vote for a resolution that passes. i'd think there's a time limit on the :mad: penalty, since otherwise it's completely exploitable. the resident or SecG could just choose to not put any resolutions up for vote and you'd be stuck, or if that didn't count, he could pick options he thinks you'd defy.

do they stack if you defy a second resolution while you're still suffering the :mad: penalty from the first one (if that's a situation that can happen)? i'd rather find out by reading than in my own actual game or S's, thanks! now back to your regularly scheduled ALC...

UN sanctions wear out ( can't remember the rate, should be in xml ( I'm playing now my LHC, not in the mood to dig code :p ) ) and the :mad: stacks ( exactly like the AP ones ). The AP and UN mechanics are very similar .....
 
thank you :). i wasn't asking you to dig into .xml silly, just to give me the basic idea. so i can save myself from a terrible surprise!
 
Round 9: 1525 AD to 1742 AD (55 turns)

On a related note (having to do with the finest fruits of civilization), I take it everyone has seen the new Guinness ad? Bloody brilliant.

With a formidable Yankee stack approaching one of my cities, I put a bunch of defensive units into the build queues:



I didn't make peace with Washington right away, however. I wanted to see which of my cities was attracting his attention. I also thought I might have a slight chance to hold him off.

Turns out it's San Francisco that he wanted back:



Well, as you can see, Frisco had a decent defensive stack, but no castle, and all those catapults (eleven of the little beggars) would make short work of the defenses and defenders. So, without further ado...



Yup, I substituted New York for Buffalo and he agreed to it. It was certainly nice to obtain a city from an enemy with all the infrastructure intact for a change. There were additional benefits to getting the city so nice they named it twice. My cultural borders now claimed the silk tile next to Chicago for an additional happiness resource, and I figured the big apple would be Washington's primary focus for recapture when we renewed hostilities, since it sticks into his territory like the proverbial sore thumb. Even so, I left a good-sized defensive stack in San Francisco, just in case.

Besides building defensive units, I also built defenses. This resulted in a successful completion of the castle quest. I chose the diplomatic benefit.



The other options were +25 espionage points from the Great Wall or all melee units earning City Garrison I. The former was tempting, but I decided I needed the goodwill to stay alive more than the EPs.

I turned up the research slider to finish Astronomy to gain whatever benefit it offered for my economy, burning through my war booty in the process.



Since I'm trailing in technologies, I immediately went about trading it for whatever I could get.



Guilds would give me grocers to help with the economy and, of course, Knights to help fight Washington. Music would lead to Military Tradition and Cuirassiers. I also obtained Printing Press from Hannibal, and that gave me a big financial boost, allowing me to raise the science slider a notch.

In the meantime, I was building many, many units, including several catapults to throw at any stack Washington sent my way. Just when I was thinking it was time to renew hostilities, George beat me to the punch.



Great minds think alike and fools seldom differ, my mom used to say. Hmmm, same sour expression on his face as last time. Maybe his wooden teeth are giving him splinters?

This time, with several protective crossbows and longbows, walls, castles, and catapults in place, I felt that I was ready for him. As I expected, he attacked New York. His stack of catapults were poorly defended--the attack units, all Macemen, were trailing behind--so I was able to wipe them out. He hasn't mounted a significant threat to any of my cities since.

All this unit building has left me in 3rd place in power.



Yeah, Hannibal was taking a beating from Shaka. In some ways that raised my spirits, as it showed that being the tech leader does not guarantee that you'll win. Since I'm trailing badly in techs, but not too far behind Shaka, I found that heartening.

Speaking of our favourite Zulu, I was able to make a handy tech trade with him, too.



The infusion of gold was very nice. I did not change civics to mercantilism, however. First off, as we've discussed previously in the thread, I've changed civics way too many times in this game. Furthermore, only Shaka was running mercantilism by this point. I had trade routes to Persia, Carthage, and Native America. And I was still desperately hoping for Taoism to spread naturally to my cities along the foreign trade routes. So switching to mercantilism made no sense. I did start building several banks, however.

Once New York was no longer facing a significant threat, it was time to go back on the offensive. The first thing I did was capture Washington itself.



It's always a significant blow when you capture your enemy's capital. Though as capital sites go, Washington is not that great. It only has one food source, the cows, which it shares with New York. I can't help thinking that Washington may have moved the settler rather than settling in place. Or maybe George just got a crappy dice roll. In any case, Washington is now mine--and I mean that phrase in every sense.

I researched gunpowder next and, still in dire technical straits, immediately traded it away.



Obviously I wasn't going to benefit from Theology any time soon, but I did stop Cyrus from trading with Washington. I also shored up Persia's position on the other continent to be a counterweight to Zululand, which was rolling over Carthage.

Now that I'd traded Astronomy to practically everybody, I was getting worried about galleons stuffed with settlers showing up and claiming prime spots in my back yard. So despite the state of my economy, I started settling cities along the shoreline to seal off the continent as much as I could.



I have a few more sites inland that I could settle, but they'll wait until after the war when the economy is back on track. There's a spot between Nihru and Chicago on the west coast that I'm a little worried about, so I may settle it early in the next round.

I kept taking American cities, swinging back along the continent, moving to the east. I captured Portland, then Seattle.



Seattle was the new capital and contained a huge stack, so this was a tough fight, which is why a Pikeman captured the city. Too bad America still owns that silver tile they popped, but it will be mine once I capture Houston.

I also captured and razed Buffalo. I learned my lesson from last time, when I razed the previous city in that spot only to have the Yankees re-settle there. So I had a settler ready to go onto my preferred spot.



Now, for most of the round, Shaka was the only one running Mercantilism. Since he owns the holy city for Taoism, that reduced the chances of that religion spreading to me. I produced a great scientist and used him to research part of scientific method, but I held off on finishing it or trading for it because I still foresaw the need to build monasteries. I did have Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, and Confucianism spread to my cities, and built monasteries for all of them so I can spread them if and when needed. I adopted none of them as my state religion, however. I was holding out for Taoism so that I could get on Shaka's good side. You can imagine how frustrating it was to see all these religions spreading to my cities, but none of them were the one I wanted!

Finally, near the end of the round, my wish came true. That it took the whole round was frustrating, but it was, perhaps, all the more rewarding when it finally happened.



It spread to the capital. How convenient. So now I foresee a need to build missionaries and monasteries and spread the good word. America is almost finished--only four or five cities to go--but war weariness is starting to mount again. The other continent continues to tech ahead of me, though I feel like I'm slowly closing the gap.

However, Cyrus has settled a city in the far north, near the furs. So that's something we'll have to take into consideration as well. Not to mention the additional development that Hannibal is now Shaka's vassal. We know Shaka loves a good tussle. Will he go after Persia next, or cast his avaricious glance in my direction?

A state of the world post will follow.
 

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man this is going to be a great clash of the giants. shaka's domain is huge. cyrus settling a city on your continent is probably a good thing since now you can easily steal techs from him ;)
 
Nice round. I don't think I've ever seen an AI settle for peace with a city. This clash with Shaka should be epic.
 
The State of the World, 1742 AD
Let's start off with a look at the map of my continent:



First off, I have no need or desire to settle those islands. Leave them for the AI, I say, so they focus on that rather than taking me on.

Second, as I said in the previous post, I have several more inland cities I can settle after the war is done and the economy can handle it. I mentioned the potential fishing village on the west coast between Chicago and Nihru (there's an unclaimed fish tile off the coast there). It would have several grassland tiles to work and would be a decent commerce city. I can also settle another city nearby to claim the rice and cow tiles. I also can put another city southeast of Bad Tibira that will claim the remaining flood plains--another good commerce site. I can also fit one or two more cities northwest of Umma, where there's clams, bananas, and dye to be claimed.

Persia has two cities in the north. He's effectively claimed the furs, but I think I can trade to him for them. There is another problem with Istakhr, however: it will give Cyrus a source of horses. I'm currently trading horses to him for ivory. Ouch. I may have to send a spy up there to keep pillaging that tile, at least until the war is over.

In terms of the war, I think Houston falls next. That will make that silver tile available. It would give me a much-needed happy resource (+2 with a forge, which most of my cities have) that would help me finish the war. Then it's off to Atlanta, Detroit, Apache, Boston, and Philadelphia, and I'll probably keep them all.

Here's a look at the other continent:



Poor Hannibal! I thought he was sitting pretty at the end of last round, but apparently he neglected his military--always a mistake if Shaka is next door. At this point I'm just hoping that Persia looks a lot more appealing to Shaka than me. Heck, I might even join him in a war against the Persian just so I can take those cities Cyrus planted on my continent.

Domestic advisor:



Yeah, mostly infrastructure. I feel like I have more than enough units to finish the war. The problem is that I can't move the huge number of defensive units out of my inland cities once they're safe because they're propping up the happiness cap! When the war is over, I'll be deleting several units and moving many to the coastal cities to fend off invasion threats. I also think I'm going to need to build up a navy pretty darn soon.

Civics:



No changes, many of you will probably be happy to see. I know some of you were recommending slavery, but I did fine without it. Granted, it would be nice to whip away some of the unhappy citizens now, but I suspect I'll be glad they're around once the war is over. Or should I change to slavery and maybe police state and nationhood to finish off the war and mitigate the heavily-mounting war weariness? I have six cities to capture yet, and that's not going to happen overnight.

Once the war is done, at any rate, I anticipate another civics change: representation, bureaucracy (unless free speech is available), and organized religion seem like the logical choices. Maybe I should use my next great person for a golden age to do at least one of these civics changes anarchy-free.

Financial advisor:



I need a few more ziggurats, and I'm thinking Washington's next build should be the Forbidden Palace.

Foreign advisor, relations:



I was worried about shoring up relations with Hannibal, but now that he's been reduced to a non-entity, I don't have to bother. I focused on making Shaka happy this round, and I'm glad I did, since he's now the power to be reckoned with. I'm hoping that sharing his religion will keep him off my back. Then again, he and Cyrus were both Taoists when they were at one another's throats, so who knows? This game will not be short of drama, that's for sure.

IF I can keep Shaka from attacking--at least for the next couple of rounds--I think I have a lock on a space race win. Shaka just isn't that great at teching late in the game even if he has a big empire. And if I can hold him off for a while, I can get at least on par with him in military techs, enough to fend him off if he does attack.

Current trade deals:



Yep, I left that banana tribute deal in place to keep earning the diplomatic benefit from it, as several of you recommended. Does that +1 from giving tribute indeed go away if you end the deal?

Techs... still ugly.



However, I don't think this is as bad as it looks. Hannibal has been reduced to a handful of cities, so his tech rate will slow down considerably from now on. And he won't be trading many techs; he's the leader, after all, so no one has much to offer him. Shaka is the leader and his tech lead on me is not insurmountable, especially once I get my grip on my continent solidified. Cyrus, however, is a dark horse. Like I said, no shortage of drama.

Info:



I'm somewhat surprised that Cyrus isn't running Mercantilism. The AI seems to love that civic. But I'm glad he isn't, since I'm earning more trade route money from him than from anyone else.

Military advisor:



I may earn one more great general from the war. I may save him for a military academy. I earned one other one this round and settled him in Ur.

Religions:



By the end of next round, I plan to blanket this screen with the ol' yin and yang.

Everyone loves charts, right? Here's production:



And power:



Nice to see I've slipped ahead of Cyrus, not that I feel threatened by him, since he's "friendly". However, I don't have access to Shaka's information. Worrisome.

So, as you can see in the espionage screen, I intend to rectify that:



It shouldn't take too long before I can see his demographics, and I don't feel very comfortable not knowing them at the moment--at least his power rating. I may even drop Washington to 0, and maybe Hannibal as well. On the other hand, I could build EPs against Cyrus and then maybe steal techs from his city on my continent. Or Hannibal? He has a lot of juicy techs, and the price of stealing techs from him has dropped considerably--to 3453 in Cahokia. How do I best take advantage of this BtS feature?
 
One other thing I should mention: my next great person is about 26 turns away, in Nidaros.

EDIT: I built the Globe Theatre in Nidaros so I could keep growing the city and running specialists there without worrying about war weariness affecting it. Normally I'd consider the possibility of a cultural win since my GP farm has the Globe, but I think it may be too late for that. Anyone care to do the math?
 
I think you need to finish washington and to do it ASAP.... like it was previously said, Shaka may be tempted to give you a help with the american issue and letting Shaka having a foothold in your continent may be a very nasty thing.....
I think you should use the EP in Hannibal. He's weak now and he can't produce a lot of EP, a thing that will make drop even more the spy prices. He has some nice techs ( like you said ) and some would take along time to self research while rebuilding the north of your continent.
IMHO you'll face Shaka sooner or later... he passed his non return point and now he's a gigantic mogul. He's very competent in warfare and with Wash out and after Cyrus ( I'm pretty sure that he'll pursue him first.... you'll be #2 in power after finishing wash and you're far away ) you'll be the only thing between him and victory. And he doesn't know how to make a SS :devil: ... ( but with 2 ( and possibly 3 in the future ) vassals, he may try a UN stunt... )
 
Very impressive. Glad to see an update. Shaka is a monster!

I would say espionage would be the best way to get back on track. Hanibal or Persia... Whichever is cheaper I would say. Hanibal would probably be the best simply as he will be producing a lot less EP points now due to the size of his empire in comparisn to you - meaning more spying runs. Only trouble would be distance while Persia has a nice city to your north....

This is exciting!
 
first thoughts:

one ummm, technical note i guess? i backtracked a bit trying to find a world map with resources on it from a state-of-the-world to show folks where the horses up north were. couldn't find it fast, and it's quick enough for me to load the game so i did that instead and uploaded a picture. it might be a good idea to put a note in the very first post, where the links to the rounds are, about which round is "here's where i traded maps, this is the big picture of most of the world, with resources". the cities and culture borders will of course change as the game goes on, but that way folks can know where to look to see the flags, and they wouldn't have to clutter up every round. does that make sense?

hooray for Umma, the iron/dye/rice city we wanted :). silly barbs, putting theirs in the wrong place grrrrr.
However, Cyrus has settled a city in the far north, near the furs.
shucks, i wanted us to have the fur monopoly. between that and kicking washington's butt, tho, we had to pick our priority of course.

hannibal's vacation island is astoundingly crappy! i'd think it was for the holy mountain quest, except that he's in free religion *giggle*.
We know Shaka loves a good tussle. Will he go after Persia next, or cast his avaricious glance in my direction?
i'm not sure. don't forget washington's a potential target for him too. shaka does happen to have enough on his hands right now. that's another reason to keep cyrus alive and not a vassal after washington is gone, btw. if all the other civs left are vassals to shaka (or in DPs with him), they can't declare war on each other, so you can't do WHEOOHRN checks. which is completely terrifying for folks like me :lol:.
Furthermore, only Shaka was running mercantilism by this point. I had trade routes to Persia, Carthage, and Native America. And I was still desperately hoping for Taoism to spread naturally to my cities along the foreign trade routes. So switching to mercantilism made no sense. ... Now, for most of the round, Shaka was the only one running Mercantilism. Since he owns the holy city for Taoism, that reduced the chances of that religion spreading to me.
mercantilism doesn't reduce the chance of religious spread in any way at all AFAIK. the route connection calculation is different for religion than for trading; for the religious spirit to move you, you don't even have to know about the path, there just has to be a potential legal path somewhere. closed borders won't stop natural religion spread, and merc doesn't close your borders anyway. from what i've read, the random roll depends entirely on the distance between your city and the holy city, your city has to have no religion already, and there has to be some potential legal connection. if the shrine has been built there's a boost (maybe double the chance?). but you don't have to have OB or even know the civ exists ... i've had religion spread over the ocean after astronomy and that's how i met the leader, back in the days of holy vision. maybe closed borders lessen the chances, but merc doesn't close borders so i don't see how it would change it. i'd love an expert to step in!

fwiw i do think you did the right thing staying out of merc, since you were trading with others. you just weren't using the right logic. note that playing civ4 at all times with "the right" logic is not a requirement. if it was i wouldn't be allowed anywhere near it ;).
I produced a great scientist and used him to research part of scientific method, but I held off on finishing it or trading for it because I still foresaw the need to build monasteries.
you've done that sort of thing before and i really don't understand it, help me out here. you know for sure you didn't want the tech yet (which i agree with 100%). so why pop the GS now? he won't disappear. between now and when you do want the tech something bizarre might happen, i dunno, washington builds the internet and learns SciM and gives it to you for peace :lol:. the only benefit i see is if the techs you discover in between will change what he wants to research. i'm neurotic enough that i look that up when playing HoF games where i can't reload if i goof *giggle*, that right there may be why you don't do it. i've just never seen you explain why and i've wondered before, but never asked you straight out.

totally agree on the monasteries. i'm a fanatic about that. i check F9 twice to make sure i built some even if i know for darn sure i did!

Yep, I left that banana tribute deal in place to keep earning the diplomatic benefit from it, as several of you recommended. Does that +1 from giving tribute indeed go away if you end the deal?
no it doesn't go away. the +1 comes from for giving in to their greedy demand. they don't notice when you cancel it 10 turns later. i was recommending keeping it so that washington couldn't trade him his and start earning brownie points with shaka ;). if washington has gone bananas lost his bananas since then, well, that isn't or won't be an issue any more is it?
Though as capital sites go, Washington is not that great. It only has one food source, the cows, which it shares with New York. I can't help thinking that Washington may have moved the settler rather than settling in place. Or maybe George just got a crappy dice roll.
dude, you are not kidding. i loaded the 4000BC save, zoomed in close on the map and went into WB out of curiosity after you got me thinking about that. he didn't move. and since you already decided to keep it, it's not a spoiler to say that on turn 0, every single tile in the fat cross (other than the cows and the lakes) was a forest! so you won't be finding copper or iron there when you discover those techs ... oh wait, you already know 'em *giggle*. forests to chop are nice of course, but he starts with agriculture and fishing, not exactly on the way to BW, oops. i think that's one of the most craptacular capitals i have ever seen.
 
I don't like the espionage situation with Shaka. We won't even be able to see what he is researching for 63 turns at the current pace. I think the emphasis should go to him, not Hannibal. Realistically, Hannibal won't be researching much either, so we can slowly trade for all of his techs. I doubt it will be necessary to steal them, we should be able to trade for all of them way before the point where we would be able to steal them.
 
mercantilism doesn't reduce the chance of religious spread in any way at all AFAIK.

YAY, KMad provides the zen slap so that I don't have to. And she is much more polite about it than I was going to be.

Sis may have been typing ahead of himself, though, as Theocracy would have that effect, and that particular civic came into play only a couple of screenies later. Edit: second reading, observing the repeated references, suggest that this was a generous interpretation. sigh.
 
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