ALC Game 22: Arabs/Saladin

Round 2: 2625 BC to 1500 BC (45 turns)

I started off the round by accepting Nares' gamble on Bronze Working.




Could be I'm feeling a little cocky now on Emperor, but Nares advice about being able to defer Hunting and Archery in favour of some other techs like Pottery and Writing made sense. So I took the dare and kept my fingers crossed. (Good thing I uncrossed them when the round was done or it would be real hard to type right now.)

I then was on the receiving end of a beneficial random event--one that I hadn't come across before:



Cool, Leadership! I usually only assign that promotion to a unit in the middle/end of a war-heavy game when I have a "spare" GG to use on a combat unit, usually my best city raider. This time, it's going to a unit with Woodsman I. So I decided to try to keep this guy alive as he explores and to pursue the Woodsman promotions, all the way up to the new Woodsman III. If he lives, I'll be looking to upgrade him through the ages.

I started seeing barb military units--Warriors and Archers--but none were making incursions into my territory yet. Then, in 2225 BC, I finished researching BW:



First off, I changed civics, adopting one of our perrennial favourites:



Then it was time to anxiously check the map. Did I have copper nearby? Even better, was it within Mecca's borders?

Yes on both counts! Woo-hoo!



And it turns out that founding the early religion pays off in a strategic sense, because it enabled Mecca's borders to expand and encapsulate that copper tile all the sooner. It turns out there's another source of copper not too far away, down to the southwest near the incense and sheep. More on that later.

So, with copper available to ensure protection from barbs, I felt comfortable about founding my second city. I decided to go with the marble/corn city, which we generally agreed should be a high priority.



I liked it for the opportunity, as Nares suggested, to build boats to scope out the islands to the north. In fact, that's what I decided to build first: a Work Boat for exploration. Normally I'd build a monument first, but I was hoping Islam would spread there.

Then another religion was founded, one that's going to complicate my life:



How so? Well, look who founded it and converted to it:



Remember how I was saying that Louis is fond of founding a religion? There you go. Since someone else got to Meditation first, I assume this means that Louis was first to Monotheism. So this, I think, adds more fuel to the fire--the one I'm thinking of using to burn his cities. It would be double-hard to get him to convert to Islam if he has founded one of his own. I also anticipate that Confucianism will spread to Suleiman, since he's closer to French territory (yes, I found him this round). So it might be a good idea to kill Louis, take his holy city, and go with Confucianism as my SR to keep the Ottomans happy with me.

Freed from having to tech through Hunting and Archery, I progressed through the other high-priority techs for Saladin. Pottery for granaries and cottages for the capital:



Then it was on to writing.

I also found the opportunity to whip a bit. I minimized the overflow on Mecca's barracks build as well as the next build, an Axeman. This allowed me to do one turn of building to avoid the penalty when you whip with no hammers in the build. On the next turn, it was time to get cracking.



Meanwhile, Suleiman beat me to Writing:



But I got it soon afterwards.



So now the UB is enabled. Good thing, too--looks like I'll need Great Prophets for shrines.

After signing an Open Borders agreement with Louis, that is where I eneded the round. Here's a look at the map, which I've explored a bit more since last round. Suleiman is up to the north, and look--he has horses and gems. If the latter are in his capital's fat cross, he's going to start teching quickly.



One thing that will affect our prior dotmapping is the second copper location. If you refer to my latest dotmap, it's just outside fo the blue city's fat cross. I think it may be necessary to move that city 1W to claim the copper; it will still be able to work the fish, sheep, and silk, but it will, unfortunately, gain a couple of unworkable mountains in its fat cross. But the production from the copper (easy to work even on a desert tile thanks to a surfeit of food) is hard to pass up. Other than that, I think the dotmap stands. I have one worker building a road out towards Louis and the red city site (corn/sheep), but I realize now he should high-tail it back to the capital to get cottages going.

Now, a big question is what to research next. I had selected Masonry, thinking to get that marble outside Medina on-line, but no religion has yet spread to my second city, so I won't be ready to build a quarry once Masonry is done. Hunting and Archery are now lower priorities since I have Axemen; I may even wait and tech trade for them. Other possibilities include Priesthood (I could get started on the Oracle) and Alphabet. Thoughts?

I have only a brief tech comment to make, since most (if not all) previous discussion still stands.

I can think of two options. I like them both, so I'd probably flip a coin over it if this was my game, since both will eventually happen anyway:

Option 1: Aesthetics + Masonry = Parthenon. We know we're gonna run an SE, so we know we want the Parthenon.

Option 2: Mathematics + Masonry + Construction + Chopping = Pyramids and all of Louis' land.

Now that I think of it, I'd probably keep flipping the coin until it landed on Option 2. Pre-chop (and maybe Road) all the Forests you can while slow-building Axemen. When Construction completes, finish all the chops on Catapults to complete your SoD then march it over to France.

Both options put Masonry 2nd to give Medina time to pop its borders.

Given Option 2, I might even consider forgoing the outlying cities and skipping straight to the Wheat and Crab cities.

EDIT: Oh yeah ... you need at least 1 more Worker soon.

EDIT2:

Sisiutil said:

Here's a look at the map, which I've explored a bit more since last round. Suleiman is up to the north, and look--he has horses and gems. If the latter are in his capital's fat cross, he's going to start teching quickly.

Click to expand...

I didn't see a map, and it looks like you've gone to bed, so I took the liberty of printing a map for you (I hope you don't mind):



-- I think that's all the 2 I have (but I'm sure I'll find more from somewhere tomorrow)

Sisiutil said:

First off, I changed civics, adopting one of our perrennial favourites:

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Keep in mind that you're Spiritual. In BtS there are disadvantages to being in Slavery (higher upkeep and slave revolt random event). You should stay in Tribalism until you need to whip something, then switch to Slavery to whip and switch back to Tribalism as soon as you can (assuming you won't have anything else to whip in the next 5 turns).

Sisiutil said:

In fact, that's what I decided to build first: a Work Boat for exploration.

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If you wanted a work boat to explore why didn't you whip it once Medina grew to pop 2?

Sisiutil said:

I have one worker building a road out towards Louis and the red city site (corn/sheep), but I realize now he should high-tail it back to the capital to get cottages going.

Click to expand...

That's definitely an understatement. You've roaded a number of unnecessary tiles, but your cities are working 4 unimproved tiles.

Sisiutil said:

Now, a big question is what to research next.

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Priesthood also leads to Monarchy. You're going to need HR at some point soon to grow your cities. You don't have much in the way of resources, and now it looks like you won't even be able to convert to Islam for the SR happiness bonus. You can't work many cottages in Mecca if you don't raise your happy cap.


Another question to answer is when do you want to build another settler? You can't wait too long if you want to beat Louis to the corn/sheep site.

Sisiutil said:

I started off the round by accepting Nares' gamble on Bronze Working.

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I appreciate receiving credit, but I believe it was Validator's suggestion to go for BW first.

I'm going to assume that Louis has his eyes on the Oracle. You might want to consider the Great Wall (too late?), or the Pyramids (no longer seem quite as game-breaking).

That said, I'd go for Mathematics. We'll need Construction soon, and Mathematics improves the strength of our whips.

We'll also need Code of Laws in the not-too-distant future. The question becomes, what unit will we be supporting with our Catapaults? Axemen? Probably not. Swordsmen? Possibly. Macemen? Too far off. Camel Archers? Even less likely than Macemen.

We want to tech towards Civil Service. Unfortunately, we need Machinery as well to enable Macemen. But CS will provide two huge benefits; chain irrigation and an awesome civic.

We don't have Horses, which is fine. We don't need Iron Working to get Knights online, though we'll need it for clearing some jungle, I believe.

As I said, I think we're looking to tech towards Machinery. Code of Laws requires Writing, and either Priesthood or Currency. I assume we'll be looking at Priesthood for Temples rather than Currency. However, we still need Mathematics for Construction. We also need Code of Laws or Feudalism to open up Civil Service. Both techs have benefits. CoL is needed for expansion, and Feudalism opens both a new, Protective-friendly unit, as well as nice wartime civic. Feudalism also is required for Guilds, and would bring us closer to our UU.

How are we going to get Feudalism? Ideally, we would steal it, freeing us up to research some other techs. Alternatively, we can trade for it, but I don't what we would trade for it. This would also require Alphabet, another tech we probably want sooner rather than later.

When will the war against Louis start? Before he can research Feudalism? If he gets Feudalism first, and I think he will, then a war will probably be delayed until we can leverage Guilds (or Macemen spam). That really leaves us with a few options to pursue in the meantime. (Monarchy)/Feudalism, (Metal Casting)/Machinery, (Feudalism/Code of Laws)/Civil Service, and (Mathematics)/Construction/Alphabet.

Mathematics helps with chops, and it looks like every city will benefit from it. However, most cities are not going to be online for a short bit, so we might as well grab Priesthood then Mathematics, or Meditation then Priesthood then Mathematics.

I wouldn't move the "blue" city 1W. I'm unsure of what the output is of a Desert Copper Mine, but I'm sure it's not much. I don't think you gain anything by moving.

Looks like Louis is first on the hitlist....although Sulieman's capital looks pretty damn promising.

Well get your settler going to block of Louis since he will be busy founding a city in the north near the copper/corn/incense propably. And after that I guess he will try to get clam/cow/oasis city. As his third city I am afraid he will place this city poorly to get the horses online, so he will settle between the fish and the horses. I would concentrate a little on expanding now. Let Louis build his wonders (parthenon, oracle, maybe artemis) then axe rush his sorry cities

I'd like to point out, that on epic, it takes 100*1.5=150 culture to grab the copper mine. So you should get it on turn 76, and you researched bronze working on turn 71, so it didn't really help.

Of course, if you hadn't researched religion, you would have gotten bronze working earlier and you couldn't have border popped.

I still say grab the silver city, then maybe slightly higher priority to the second bronze.

Going crazy with wonders will still leave you trapped.

Work the first workboat, your second city production is important and it will take awhile to make another one. Then you can whip another boat for exploration.

vicawoo said:

I'd like to point out, that on epic, it takes 100*1.5=150 culture to grab the copper mine. So you should get it on turn 76, and you researched bronze working on turn 71, so it didn't really help.

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Getting access to Copper is not so much getting access to Axemen early, but more importantly being able to delay Hunting + Archery until later, so you can get Writing earlier.

If BW were to come after Hunting + Archery, then Writing would have to wait longer.

Firstly a bit dissapointed you didn't go all out for the early religions . So now I've been forced to play a shadow game . Founded Islam and Tao (poly and mono) just waiting to see if I can get Theo from the Oracle. If not I can bulb first prophet from SH.

Anyway back to the interesting game. Definitely priesthood next. Cheap temples are one of the few things going for Sal. Whip something or the temple and the unhappiness is removed by the temple straight away.

With the marble will you go for the GLib if so head to Aesthetics and Lit. If not early Alpha for the tech trading. I think there is plenty of good city sites without needing to attack Louis early. Good chance he'll build the Mids so you can get them later without having to build them.

My vote goes for rexing as much as possible, build the Glib then take the to louis as your next expansion phase.

Looking forward to the next round.

With Copper in hand, you've already gained the advantage of being able to delay Hunting+Archery, because you can now make Axemen. The consequence is that Writing becomes possible sooner, along with other techs including Feudalism.

Leveraging Protective is about maximizing the benefit of its best advantages, which in the early game would be Longbowmen, not just Archers. By delaying Hunting+Archery you actually speed up the progress towards Feudalism, and thus Longbowmen.

Besides this technological advantage, the advantage of having Copper can be pressed further by having an early war using Axemen.

One of the arguments for early attacking is the prospect of an early GG, in addition to early experienced units. One of these units could be used as the requirement for building Heroic Epic, thus preparing for a larger scale war in the future.

If Wonders are the reason for delaying the first assault, the counter for that argument is that Louis will build Wonders no matter how many cities are captured--it's just in his nature to do so. You can wage the war and stop until you've earned a GG. Your second assault would be met with much less resistance, since Louis would still be spending Hammers on building Wonders, but would have very little left for military.

Louis' preferred civic is Hereditary Rule. If you attack him first, and then adopt Hereditary Rule (assuming you don't have Pyramids), your relations with him will still be OK because of the favorite civic bonus.

We already have a Level 4 unit (the Warrior west of France), so the Heroic Epic is unlocked as soon as we've got Literature.

After building a few more Axes for defence, you should go for another Settler. I would prioritize this even before the Madrassa.

I guess we're cottage-spamming Holy Mecca, and Medina should take care of our
production-needs. IMHO, the next city should therefor be a GP-farm - ideally a city between Mecca and Paris (Sheep/Corn?). There's Copper to the north of France -
has Louis adopted Slavery? If so, I guess he will try to claim Copper next. If not, it may be hard to get Sheep/Corn city before he does. If Louis beats you to it, I would go for either Sheep/Fish/Silk south of Mecca, or maybe even Wheat/Crab/Pig south east of Mecca.

Whipping without granary is not very hot...

King_of_Clubs said:

We already have a Level 4 unit (the Warrior west of France), so the Heroic Epic is unlocked as soon as we've got Literature.

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That's great! At least it keeps open the option of delaying the war until later.

But there's still the option of attacking early, if it's advantageous to do so.

Sisiutil said:

I had selected Masonry, thinking to get that marble outside Medina on-line, but no religion has yet spread to my second city, so I won't be ready to build a quarry once Masonry is done.

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From the screenshot it looks like Medina is not connected to your capital which is why Islam won't spread there! You either have to research Sailing to connect it by river, build a road there (easiest option), or the entire river connecting them should be within your cultural borders (which cannot happen without another pop).

Well done with the BW gamble!!! Make sure you build a spear for each city or you may be chariot rushed by one of the other two.

I say a Madrassa and priests for a Prophet, then spam settlers to claim as much land as you can while beelining towards currency and CoL. You have enough land to build up quite nicely before Taking on Louis. Remember to let him build some wonders.

Also shoot for meditation or monotheism to start producing missionaries and try to get Suliman to convert to Islam. He is Imperialistic while Louis is creative, so they very likely could have more border issues with each other than you would have with Louis.

Nice solid start, which is the biggest problem with Saladin. Now you can leverage the UB ALOT for the economy. Also founding another religion or two later would help (bulb theology) for another shrine and the AP!

Strength through peace, at least until trebs and the UU!

EDIT: Forgot about the marble. Add masonry and priesthood into the Que earlier than later. Tech monotheism and take theology from the oracle if possible. That saves a Prophet for an additional shrine. However, since Louis is industrious and already has monotheism (an thus likely priesthood) the oracle maybe a fool's errand.

I doubt that S man can pull the Oracle in here... remember that we have a Emperor Ind civ with marble in the capital BFC and lots of forest to chop.... unless S man chops like crazy , it is almost impossible ( assuming that Louis will try Oracle.. BtS AI sometimes is simply stupid )

I vote for some city spam, Monotheism and Org Rel, bulb Theo with a GP, Build AP and then overrrun Louis. This suppose obviously that you can grab archery somewhere and to pump a credible defense ( Louis hates to be boxed... )

Being industrious you should get the marble on line ASAP. Build a monument, wait on the fishing boat. Build road from capital to marble.

Delay war. build workers and settlers and axes to protect them.

REX and block Louis.

Wonders: GL, NE to fly to Liberalism. HE in production city for defense.

Prophets later when a holy city will be worth more. Louis will build his own holy city soon I expect. Then we can take it from him.

This should be fun.

I think Sailing should be the next tech, both to link up Medina as well as activate foreign trade routes. This will give a nice boost to your commerce and give you immediate trade routes for your next coastal cities.
One option to think about would be to aim for a cultural win backed up by marble boosting wonders and perhaps a free Great Artist (ToA, GL, Parthenon, Sistine). Obviously very different tech path from the more militaristic path.

Medina is linked Check OKATU's spoiler.....

r_rolo1 said:

Medina is linked Check OKATU's spoiler.....

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Medina is linked. I also loaded the game this morning to verify there was no "Bridge Building" bug (you never know with BtS these days), and there is a trade route between Medina and Mecca.