ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin

I started a shadow game to figure out the best solution for the start so I can't comment on it but it will be interesting to see which decisions are made.
I haven't been able to play much for a long time though and I need to finish up the first Immortal Challenge so I'll probably have to wait and read all about it later.

Once upon a time back in Civ III GOTM fog lurkers ruled the forums. They were able to make pretty accurate predictions on what the fog held, just by looking at the screen shots.

Are you allowed to do that in a ALC thread? If you load the save, make the two moves and zoom in you able to see a bit of what the first tile outside the fog holds. At least to the point of forest/none-forest, hill/none-hill and grassland/plains/desert.

Are you allowed to post what you see under the fog, that being without moving there!?

YaKidK said:

Once upon a time back in Civ III GOTM fog lurkers ruled the forums. They were able to make pretty accurate predictions on what the fog held, just by looking at the screen shots.

Are you allowed to do that in a ALC thread? If you load the save, make the two moves and zoom in you able to see a bit of what the first tile outside the fog holds. At least to the point of forest/none-forest, hill/none-hill and grassland/plains/desert.

Are you allowed to post what you see under the fog, that being without moving there!?

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I don't see why that would be wrong, anyone can see what's under the fog can't they?
Besides, you would be far from the first one in the thread to talk about it.

Round 1: 4000 BC to 3975 BC (1 turn!)

So as you might have guessed, the brief Warrior move I did on the next turn changes things.




Now, the corn--riverside, no less, so irrigated from the get-go--is definitely a good thing, but it complicates matters.

First off, I have to lose one more turn to move the Settler 1N in order to claim the corn, pigs, and stone. Not to mention several riverside grassland tiles.

In addition, this messes up the Hunting -> AH -> Masonry -> Archery tech path that Jet mapped out. Now Agriculture is required, but that will delay Archery. So I need a new tech path.

Aside from that, despite the 2-turn loss to exploring, this looks like a heckuva good capital.

Shoot the Moon said:

Well it looks like there probably won't be any great resources in the fog tiles to the south (spices and deer are the only ones I know of that can be on forested plains). Therefore, my gut tells me that the best place to settle would probably be NW (obviously after moving the warrior). Keeping two more riverside plains by settling W or SW isn't that appealing to me.

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*cough cough* Well, still looks like 1 NW (of the original spot, 1 N now) is the best place to settle. That looks like a very yummy capitol. More than enough food, good production and a whole lot of cottageable lands. It's a shame we aren't financial. Civil service looks really attractive right about now.

Now we're definitely going to have 10 pages of discussion before Sis plays the next round.

Seriously, while this may be Emperor, moving the Settler 1N may not be a bad idea. You might be a couple turns behind the AI civs, but with the Corn and Pigs for growth and the Stone for hammers, you should be able to gain some ground back with that food and hammers.

I would think that you would be OK given that situation. If you weren't thinking about building Stonehenge, then it would simply be an issue of moving back to the original spot and settling in place.

With that being said, given that you need Agriculture somewhere, and that you've got a site that would allow for plenty of whipping, meaning BW goes higher up the list, you probably do need to go a different direction, regardless of whether you go back to the starting spot or you move to get all three resources in the BFC.

But as far as tech goes, I'd go the Ag-AH route, and if you decide you want the stone in the BFC and you want Stonehenge, then go for Masonry. If not, head to BW so you can do some whipping.

I'd still try to work in Archery, though, particularly if you go back to the original starting point. You might have some land to the east that could have Copper, but it's not a guarantee.

Riverside corn means you can delay animal husbandry. You could chop great wall if you want to avoid barbarians and skip hunting archery.

It will take7 turns to build a road to the stone, and 9 (effectively 8) to build a quarry. Worker completes in 23 turns, so if you want the fastest quarry, you need masonry in 30 turns. Agriculture completes in 12 I think with a commerce tile, masonry completes in 14.

If you go corn first, it will take 1+8+1 additional turns to getting the quarry up, in which case masonry by turn 40.

Lot of options. The river might make you lucky in trading, there's jungle to the north.

What a mouth watering spot!!

Massive river for commerce and heaps of food to power our madrassa specialists!

This start is now SCREAMING for a SE. Stone for pyramids - Representation-boosted Madrassa priests - Angkor Wat later.

Our mid-latitude start most likely means other nearby city sites will have plenty of grasslands and maybe some floodplains for food to power our SE.

As for the capital's location - the original spot (1E of current settler) yields 16 river tiles, and the new spot (1N of current settler) yields 15, but 3 more of them are grassland. It's hard to resist grassland river for the capital, so I would vote for 1N of current settler.

As for getting stone in the BFC - we will eventually get it in either case, but with regular Palace-only culture we will get our second border pop in - umm - no idea how many turns on Epic. Lots, I guess. Like, 100? Anyone??

So the question is still whether we want a really good shot at Stonehenge / GW or not.

I'd say we'd like the option. With stone in the BFC we have a strong chance at either, and I'd say that's worth one extra turn before settling. In 30-50 turns (stone hookup time depending upon techs) we'll know enough about our neighbour / barb situation to decide which we need (or both or neither). GW in particular gives us breathing room and lets us use all our next hammers and chops on the Pyramids.

So - another reason to burn a turn, and head north.

Or...

Settle your first city now (in place), settle your next city on the tile to the right of the dye. Seriously, with jungle to the north, desert to the west, plains to the south, no reason to take ALL the good tiles for just one city and make your outliers anemic. You can have two pretty nice cities along this river - positioned well for cultural output, with enough food in both for plenty of madrassa specialists!

Well even if Sisiutil settles one north, more than one city can work that corn. However I see a few plains tiles and a plains hill in the fat cross if Sisiutil settles here. In addition unless you get a truck load of happy resources, its not going to be easy to grow that fat...

Going one north gets a few more grassland river tiles but it might cause more overlap for those tiles way off in the distance in future...

I wouldn't be too concerned, either decision could be good, its all on taste I suppose... I would probably stay in place but if the settler was currently on 1N I would settle there.

Overlap is fine, but the capital MUST have access to both food resources (corn and pigs) so that it can grow fast, whip well, run specialists, and power cottages later.

Should have just settled in place...

It's 75 turns for second border pop at 2 culture (150 needed).

I settled in place for the record, popped the hut but it didn't help, doh!

Edit: Edited since I realized it might contain a very slight spoiler.

oyzar said:

Should have just settled in place...

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That's what I said.

I also suggested moving the settler 1NE and the warrior 1SE at the start. It would have revealed about as many tiles as these multiple moves have so far.

My personal preference is to settle in place and shoot for only the Pyramids. This frees your capital up for expansion in the meantime, and allows you to delay Masonry in favor of, say, Bronze Working.

oyzar said:

Should have just settled in place...

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Yep. I'd move 1E and settle in the original location, only losing 1 turn. There's still that non-forested tile 2E of the original location. It could be a calendar resource (not so important to have in the BFC), another food bonus (3 in the BFC? Unlikely, but who knows?), a hidden military resource (Copper, iron, horses), grassland gems (oooh ), or a non-forested tile in the middle of the woods. It's a gamble whichever way you go: giving up another turn for the stone, or trusting the map gen to make the original location worth going back to and saving a turn. Roll the dice.

huerfanista said:

grassland gems

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It's evidently a plains tile in Sis' second photo.

I think enough of the tile is revealed that we could see most of the possible resources it could be. Given all the forests, it's very likely a strategic resource there.

Quotey said:

Request: Show off the GENERATE A MILION GOLD BY WHIPPING AND CHOPPING WALLS trick since you have stone and protective.

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320 or so for 2 forests and a 1 pop whip (for a protective leader with stone and cheap walls, with math researched). Very handy when the treasury runs dry while rexing (via settlers or ). Just saying.

1N sounds good, despite the two turns loss. But then go Pyramids directly, you can't afford to lose them. You'll have quite a big & powerful capital, more than making up for the loss of turns. I'd say Agri->AH. If you find horses nearby, then you can go Mining -> Masonry -> BW, if not, go directly Hunting -> Archery->(Mining? ->) Masonry.

Drat, double post...