ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin

Stealing the Worker from Roosevelt is something I would do. You'll then have to escort him back, of course, but it will be worth it as the second work will help with getting infrastructure going.

Taking the Great Wall, IMO, does not imply Wonder spam. We're doing it to protect against Barbs once we get to REXing and going to the north and east. In fact, I'd take Slobberinbear's advice and get the Great Wall done before the first Settler, as it will take time to get BW. Combine what should be plenty of food with plenty of hammers and you've got yourself a terrific Settler factory, which more than makes up for not popping a Settler before GW.

And yes, I'm betting Zara is closer than we think. I doubt he's to the north... I'm betting he's to the east. Remember that Zara found Sis first and his Scout, even with the two moves, would not likely have overtaken Roosevelt's Warrior if Zara was north of Rosie. So eastward is where Sis needs to explore to locate Zara and know where he needs to go to cut him off, lest Zara start expanding.

Now, of course, there will be those who say "if Zara expands fast, why build the GW?" Answer: Because the idea is to cut off the south to the AI civs and making sure the Barbs can't slip through the back door (read: the south). With GW in place, Sis can let the Barbs wander about in the south until he's ready to kill them while he concentrates forces toward the north and east and then decide whether it's Rosie or Zara who is first to go.

And yes, I'd put those two as the ones for the possible first attack... doesn't have to be an early rush, but given that they are going to be the closest, it's going to be one or the other to take down when that time comes.

carl corey said:

OTAKUjbski: Stonehenge won't make an AI not trade with you, or make you need to protect your cities better. So I don't agree that Worker = Stonehenge. It can turn out that stealing it works out really well, as in Roosevelt still trades, he doesn't counterattack, and we simply get one free worker; I'd rather not take the chance seeing how many other good options we have.

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I know from experience (as well as the word of others already in this thread) Roosevelt is extremely easy to get along with. -1 right now for "You declared war on us" will be all but forgotten by 1 AD.

The fact Roosevelt is so easy to get along with should serve to strengthen the resolve to steal his Worker right now.

carl corey said:

And seriously, some people called for wonders (not everybody for the same, of course ), some for REXing (although not always in the same direction), some for axe rush. I don't think there's a dominant group.

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And to that faction my comment is directed.

/delurk

(long time reader, first time poster)

How about something a little different? Build the GW, then GIVE your stone resource to Rosey and *let him* build the Pyramids for you. Invest the hammers in a Big Stack of Axes instead. :evilgrin:

SillyGoat said:

/delurk

(long time reader, first time poster)

How about something a little different? Build the GW, then GIVE your stone resource to Rosey and *let him* build the Pyramids for you. Invest the hammers in a Big Stack of Axes instead. :evilgrin:

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We would effectively have to commit to warring with Roosevelt immediately since we really would like the Pyramids sooner rather than later. If we do plan on warring early our ideal first target would be Zara whose Musketman UU is a pain to deal with unless you can out produce and/or out-tech him which is generally difficult.

Round 3: 3200 BC to 1750 BC (58 turns)

I couldn't resist. I stole the Worker.



I made peace with Roosevelt a few turns later; I knew it would be easy, he's pretty forgiving, unlike someone like Monty who would refuse peace unless I gave him my second city or something.

The Worker got back to Mecca with perfect timing, just as this tech completed, so he could start quarrying the stone.



I adopted Slavery right away...



And checked the surroundings for copper. There's a lot of it on this map, including two locations here, as well as another to my north and a fourth (!) to my southwest. I think someone swapped in the vanilla map generator on me, because I haven't seen this much copper on a map since those heady early days of Civ IV!

Slaze had suggested founding a city up near the 2 NE gems, and I'd suggested moving it one tile east from the plains tile to the grassland tile. Turns out my suggestion was prescient, as that meant that copper would be in that city's BFC. Fortuitously, I'd decided to build a Settler before starting on the Great Wall, so I sent that Settler out that way.

The Great Wall itself, meanwhile, was going to take a mere 10 turns to build:



My second city was founded...



And look who built Stonehenge:



Go figure--a Creative civ building Stonehenge? The problem is, that's just going to make Zara even more of a cultural pain in the butt. He is indeed to my east, as many of you surmised--so much for cutting off the AI from expansion to the south. I was going to have to rush to get some of the city sites we'd mapped out.

I finished my own wonder a few turns later:



One down, and the Pyramids to go, but I didn't start on them right away. I decided I was going to have to beat Zara to that SE gold/flood plains site, so I queued up a Warrior and then a Settler to do just that.

Meanwhile, I kept exploring. Once again, the prospect of a free Worker tempted me.



This time I resisted temptation. I would have had a long haul getting him back to Arab territory, and I sensed I was going to be running out of friends soon. Not that Sury makes a great friend, but I may have to cultivate him, given the proximity of Roosevelt and Zara.

I finished researching Animal Husbandry and found out that I do have horses nearby:



Yes, they would have been in the BFC if I settled in place. As it turns out, thanks to the Great Wall, Mecca's borders expanded a turn or so later, so the horses were in my cultural boundaries and I had them hooked up by the end of the round, ahead of Medina's copper. So I think swapping horses for stone was a good choice, especially since by the time the former was available, I got both!

My next tech was on the way to Writing and Madrassas. With Zara so close by, I figured I was going to need them. And cottages too, of course.



I then founded my third city:



And already Zara is getting on my nerves. I'll claim a couple of flood plains and 2 gold, but he founded a lousy little city on some non-flood plain desert tiles (I hate those--they could have been so much better!) and has stolen the wheat away. Maybe I should have adjusted the city's location to compensate, especially with the copper close by, but I'm stubborn and I'm starting to lean towards rushing the Ethiopian. His hyper-cultural capital, with Stonehenge there, is threatening to steal away Medina's copper, too. Irritating.

So here's a look at the capital at the end of the round.



I put the Pyramids in there to show everyone how many turns they'll take without chopping. But frankly, I'm beginning to think that I ought to go military instead now and take out Zara. Granted, I have lots of land I could peacefully claim to the west and southwest, but Zara is putting pressure on the sites we mapped out earlier. With no religion founded on my continent to make us all happy with one another, the close borders are going to lead to problems; heck, they already have.

Here's a look at the map, north and then south:






Again, this is a bit of a throwback--it appears as though the map generator has handed me an old-fashioned continents map, just like the ones I played when I started the ALCs! Ah, the good old days...

So Zara is east as several of you suggested, Roosevelt is north, and Sury is further north. I got a diplomatic demerit, by the way, with Zara for declaring war on his friend Roosevelt, so I'm not exactly winning over my neighbours. If I can keep Sury happy long enough--a tough task, I know--I could probably take them both out with no problem.

The difficulty with going after an early rush against Zara is I may sacrifice the Pyramids in the process, since I'd be putting hammers into Axemen and Chariots instead. Then again, Roosevelt may build them for me, especially if he claims that NW stone. And I may have forced the issue by stubbornly settling on Zara's doorstep instead of meekly backing off and settling in the west. But since when, if ever, have I been meek while playing this game?

What about going for the pyramids while you continue to expand and then go for zara once you get catapults? Creative + Stonehenge + 25% culture from the UB is going to give him some ridiculous early cultural defenses.

I knew you couldn't resist the free worker.

You're not in a position to war with Zara yet. You may well lose your only (currently hooked up) copper to his culture soon, and even if you did crank out some barracks and axes, you'll be fighting 40% culture in each of his cities with no swords and no catapults. I suppose you could use your Great Spy's infiltration EPs to knock those defenses out, though ...

I think you're better off at this point cranking out Madrassas for some cultural defense (monument + Madrassa = creative + Stonehenge, at least until he gets his UB going) and settling to the south to get the last gold in that cluster while picking up the corn and crabs. At that point, you have cut off Zara from easy expansion and hopefully deprived him of horses and copper. If he has iron in his borders, though, he may decide to attack you if he can't REX peacefully (though I suppose he could tech Sailing and just go around your blocking city). I can't tell from the map whether Medina blocks Zara from going northwards ... I'll load up your save and check.

You may want to settle another copper city pretty soon, too, in case Medina's tile gets Ethiopized.

Anyway, I still think going masonry before BW was the right move, even though it 'committed' you to a wonder-building strategy. I wouldn't touch the Pyramids, though, until you had at least one more city out -- preferably, the southern blocking city.

EDIT: Ok, I checked the save.

I think it likely that Zara will settle very close to Medina (say, 3E 1N of there) to get the copper and put Medina in the culture vise. Not much you can do about that other than build every culture building you have.

Since you have horses, I'd build a chariot to go with the settler and hustle down to the southeastern site ASAP.

Then I'd build city #5 at the northern bronze site, to cut off FDR a bit.

Then the Pyramids.

You can actually build a settler and the Pyramids at the same time, so do 'touch' the latter now. Build Pyramids while you grow. Chop once or twice, letting the hammers go to the settler, then whip it out. Save the other trees for the Pyramids as you continue with its construction.

slobberinbear said:

I think you're better off at this point cranking out Madrassas for some cultural defense (monument + Madrassa = creative + Stonehenge, at least until he gets his UB going)

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Stonehenge means Zara gets a free Stele in every city.

Aelf said:

You can actually build a settler and the Pyramids at the same time, so do 'touch' the latter now. Build Pyramids while you grow. Chop once or twice, letting the hammers go to the settler, then whip it out. Save the other trees for the Pyramids as you continue with its construction.

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Sounds good to me. I'm a Prince/Monarch player and need some pointers/reminders in the fine art of production swapping. I guess you mean ... grow to happy cap while building the pyramids, then swap to settler, whipping after two chops to get the overflow into the pyramids and the benefits of putting slavery overflow hammers into the Wonder. Do I have that straight?

He could probably do that operation two times, if Mecca regrew fast enough.

Mknn said:

Stonehenge means Zara gets a free Stele in every city.

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Ouch. My bad. Forgot his UB was a monument.

So Zara is getting (Creative (2) + Monument (1)) X 1.25 = 3.75 culture per turn in his satellite cities, gobs more in the capital. I'm not sure how Sisiutil can match that culture output this early in the game without a religion.

Go West young Man

I agree with the REX/block+ chop Pyramids strategy (extend Arabia's great wall to the West and south, to protect it from interlopers)

I'd say
Writing (Madrassa) ... aim for a GProphet to pop Theology/Shrine
...Poly+Monotheism if the third religion hasn't been founded at this point... Monotheism to unite the population/provide Culture would be useful
Hunting->Archery (to boost your defenses)
Math->Currency
Construction (Elephants and Catapults)
Meditation/Polythism if you already have it->Priesthood->CoL (to solidify the REX)

As soon as you get a GP, if you have a holy city, Shrine it (faster free spread, and eventual money). If not (or for your second GP) research Meditation, Polytheism, Priesthood, and Monotheism and pop Theology for a Religion to unite your continent.

Then go Philosophy (Angor), Paper(UoSank), Monarchy, and Divine Right (Minaret) and run a Religious/Specialist Economy

One point, if you're power levels look too low pop out some walls, they boost your power and are Dirt cheap for you. (16.666 hammers)... whipping them once more than 10 hammers are sitting in them is also good, because it will make nice overflow $.

I think he should go for currency before CoL. He needs math for construction anyway, and the beaker benefit wil be immediate instead of having to build the courthouses, with the hammers going to units instead.

aelf said:

You can actually build a settler and the Pyramids at the same time, so do 'touch' the latter now. Build Pyramids while you grow. Chop once or twice, letting the hammers go to the settler, then whip it out. Save the other trees for the Pyramids as you continue with its construction.

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No. The chops go to the Pyramids. Put one unchopped turn into the settler. When you reach size 6... wham! Three citizens go off to found a new city. With two food resource, the city will grow back real quick.

slobberinbear said:

... grow to happy cap while building the pyramids, then swap to settler, whipping after two chops to get the overflow into the pyramids and the benefits of putting slavery overflow hammers into the Wonder. Do I have that straight?
.

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My interpretation is to go ahead and start chopping while building the 'mids. Whenever a chop comes is, swap the settler onto the top of the queue for one turn to collect the hammers. This works great for an imperialistic leader, but since we're going to hit the happy cap in three turns doesn't make too much difference now. Just make sure the capital is at the cap before starting on the settler.

With the placement of Gondar I would have settled on the riverside gold - faster happy hook up, and you would only have enough excess food to work two mines soon anyways. Not a big deal though.

Nice job with the GW

CoL is less expensive than Currency, and also gives access to Caste System... allowing him to run merchants for easy money fast and switch to whip courthouses.
Also CoL may found a Religion to help in getting friends (of course Theology probably will too)

Also Settlers should be whipped, not chopped. (since chopping needs to go to the Pyramids, and whipping it is ineffective)

basically the food excess-> whipped Settlers
Chops/most Regular production->Pyramids

Krikkitone said:

CoL is less expensive than Currency, and also gives access to Caste System... allowing him to run merchants for easy money fast and switch to whip courthouses.
Also CoL may found a Religion to help in getting friends (of course Theology probably will too)

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Ok, getting confucianism is a good point, but if you consider that he needs to research priesthood and meditation (both useless techs at the moment) to get to CoL then Currency becomes a cheaper option techwise if we assume he's getting mathematics for construction anyway.

I don't see being able to run merchants a big advantage since currency also lets you build gold. It also lets you sell cheap techs, and facilitates trades by letting you give or get gold.

Good point, post editing

I can imagine few more nightmarish early culture monsters than Zara with Stonehenge. Is there any way to get Roosevelt to help you wipe him out so that you can declare earlier?

i think that as long as your two cities start cranking military, aided by whips, the capitol can still be devoted to whipping a settler and chopping the 'mids.

zara looks to be really boxed in. i think he will DoW, so putting off 'mids makes sense. but, looking at zara's military options, the best unit he will be able to muster is the axemen, while you have access to their counter.

i say build chariots and a few archers while expanding west. and i think you should get the 'mids for representation at pretty much any cost. if you have enough food for it, a madrassa running full specialists with representation nets 22.5 beakers/turn (2 scientists @ 6 beakers each plus 2 priests @ 3 beakers each times +25% science). not that i can see where you actually have any +8 food cities, but it's still pretty cool.

no one has mentioned iron working. it would net two gem resources, plus maybe swords to help take down zara.

prepare for a war with zara, though. see how being protective can help with this. maybe parking a few shock archers on a forested hill in his territory for the next two centuries is an option. you could still tech normally, war spending would be minimal. then when you finally do find a way to take down his cultural defense, either with cat's or a great spy, nail him to the wall.

if you do use spies to knock down his defense, it would free you up from having to research construction. from what i've read, maybe teching up to aesthetics to trade around is possible. however, without a shared religion, tech trading with the rosie and sury may be a problem considering your past transgressions.

prepare for a war with zara.

Madrassas are 4 culture, but Zara stays a step ahead with his own stuff.

Leaving Zara alone you'll lose some tiles, but you're not going to lose cities or empire-wide resources. Meanwhile you can block him in while you grow until you're more powerful than him. If he tries to break out, you'll have the advantage as long as you're reasonably prepared with Walls and stuff. And that Gold city that you thoughtfully built on the hill (oh wait, no you didn't )

Walls are important when Stone is online. They're worth like an Archer on the graph, without the upkeep. I'd get 2 units and a Walls in at least the border cities that face the AIs. And you could do the cash overflow thing.

I think grabbing and blocking is important enough to grab blocking-oasis and 4-elephants and build a couple Workers before starting the Pyramids. You'd still have a pretty good chance, and even if you lost them, there's plenty of happy around. You wouldn't have the specialist beakers, but compared to your neighbors you still have the spy bomb coming.

I doubt you can get Theology in time for a religion unless you really want it, and I would prioritize REX/Pyramids/IW/Calendar instead, but I think there's plenty of time for the DR or Philo religions, Minaret+Sankore, and/or Angkor+Pyramids.

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Question, Sisiutil - did you finish the GW before getting peace with Roosevelt? I'm curious whether the power boost affected his willingness to sign in this case.