Shyuhe-6: Re-learning war

Hi folks,

I posted my thoughts on this in my previous SG.

The settings are AW emperor, pangaea, normal, no tech trading. Starring everybody's favorite king of cheese, HC!

I've misplaced the starting screenshot but I'll post the shots of where the next player will pick up the game. I played 40 turns to make sure we have resources and don't get boxed in. I think we have some nice land to work with for this game - copper, horses, and ivory!
And yes, I killed Hannibal already:





So I'm looking for a 4-5 brave souls to help out here. Preference will be given to former members from shyuhe-5. I'll post the save once we get a roster filled out. Turn sets will be 20 for the rest of the first round, then 10-15 after that.

Hi Shyuhe,

I haven't much experience with AW, but Carthage seems hard to defend... those trees in the first ring have to go quick!
And you need another city to grab copper, which will probably be very exposed as well...
The little peninsula is on the other hand very nice so you can develop some land without too much pillaging issues...
Good luck with this game!

Cheers,
Raskolnikov

Despite saying it as a suicide, I'm game for it (I have had my share of crazy impossible games which turns out to be the expected loss or the surprise win). However, my vacation begins tomorrow, so I would ask for a skip the first turnset.

--

Ah... war. My favorite kind of pastime in Civ

Signing up.

Ummm,
Difficulty level - a bit sporty for AW - check
Probability of ignominous defeat - Nice and High - check
Need for good MM so Greyfox can us all mercilessly - check
Sounds perfect so sign me up

Ralph

I'd like to sign up if there's still room, altho you should know I'm kind of a newbie (Prince-Monarch player).

Ok! Looks like we have a roster. Fox is at the end because he's on vacation. I've attached the save. So let's start discussing tech options. I think I've teched AH, BW, and hunting. Masonry was so that we can get the stone online and possibly build the GW in Cuzco. Carthage should probably concentrate on grabbing the copper and setting up military defenses.

I'll be more hands on this game than the last one as I'm getting internet installed at home finally

Roster:
shyuhe just played
Paulus III - UP
Ralph_Jackson (on deck)
BurnEmDown
GreyFox

Got the save. Playing tonight if I can manage it.

I didn't make it yesterday because my laptop protested my decision. Odd, how computers manage to hold such a deciding vote in whether I want to play Civ right now.

It's not going to be easy. My sole purpose in this turnset was to secure copper and get axemen online. One stack of axemen and we're toast - and it's not unlikely to see that in 2400 BC. So the whole turnset was essentially built around that idea - and we're still alive. Bet you're glad to see that!

Turn 40: No more to be done. I can only wait and pray... yes, pray. Because even as much as one axeman will spell doom for the Inca.

Turn 44: What? we're not in Slavery yet? I immediately change civics.

Turn 47: Masonry is in, change to Wheel. Still safe.

Turn 52: Wheel is in, change to Pottery. Still safe, apart from a scout. A Quechua kills him.

I found Tiwanaku: essentially, it's a resource-grabber for copper. Thankfully, nobody's arrived at our doors with big armies so we should be safe.



Turn 60: Nobody has the intention to build a wall. That's why we've built a really big one around Cuzco just to keep some guys out.

I think the Great Wall will at least help us greatly at research. Even one infiltration could help us at playing catchup a lot. One successful infiltration could yield us about three medieval techs... which might mean an entire round of military catchup. We might get Feudalism, CS and Machinery in one turn.



I whip a worker at Carthage: it's underdeveloped because the worker's busy at Tiwanaku. Might solve that problem soon, though.

I quit here: we're in a difficult position because our economy sucks, but we might be able to get out of it. We need either cottages or mids for that, though. Mids are 17 turns in Cuzco, so the next player can start/finish them if he wishes.

Looks good. Copper is almost online and we should get horses once Carthage's borders pop. I would jack up research to 100% so that we can finish pottery in 3 turns. After that, save some gold before we make a quick run towards writing. We should probably pick up sailing to connect our cities unless we want to build a long road over to Carthage.

Also note that tech trading is off. So the AI won't tech as fast as normal. We should be able to take advantage of this with some good beelines. I also see that Fred has copper - we should try to get some axes online quick to make sure he doesn't axe rush us. I tried some test games and they generally don't send big stacks in the BC as they're fairly busy expanding.

I don't know about the pyramids. On the one hand they're hugely powerful and we get massive discounts on them (stone + industrious). I guess 17 turns isn't that bad, and it'll open up police state if we need it for the military production boost. Any other thoughts on the pyramids? I would vote yes, as our capital can just gradually expand through that area and we can build most of the military out west.

And make sure you chop all the forests next to cities. We don't want stacks parked in forests.

Roster:
shyuhe
Paulus III just played
Ralph_Jackson - UP for 20
BurnEmDown (on deck)
GreyFox

Can I have a swap please as I wouldn't be able to get to this until the weekend (travelling) I could pick it up Saturday and report Sunday if BurnemDown can play the next set. If BurnemDown cant take it you'll have to be patient with me until the weekend as the Fox is on holiday!!

On the key question I say when you get the chance to build the Mids in only 17 turns we would be mad not to. We have done a great early AI capital grab (nice work Shyuhe) so we have the "land" we need at this stage and need to hunker down for a bit which is a great time for a huge chunk of Infrastructure like the Mids in our capital.

Ralph

Ok Ralph. I'll swap you:


Roster:
shyuhe
Paulus III just played
BurnEmDown - UP for 20
Ralph_Jackson (on deck)
GreyFox

Got it. 10chars

My report:

T0-1: Nothing special.

T2: A German axeman is spotted, but luckily the worker just finished the mine on the copper! Tiwanaku and Carthage both begin to build axemen, moving the 2 Quechua on top of a forested hill to stall the axeman.

T3-5: Nothing special except some barbarian city spawns.

T6: I notice a barbarian city right outside of Cuzco, change 'mids for Quechua (2 turns).

T7: Axeman kills Quechua but is left with 3.7 hp, don't think he can handle the other one, Pottery is done, moving to fishing (for after I capture the barbarian city).

T8:Quechua done in Cuzco, Axeman done in Tiwanaku back to 'mids and monument.

T9: Nothing special.

T10: Guess we're gonna need more than a Quechua to take that barbarian city, 3 archers :S

T11: Fishing is done, switched to Writing (Maybe HBR after? If we can send a force of horse archers and axemen we'll be able to kick some serious ass)

T12-14: Nothing special.

T15: Turns out. the Germans prepared an army for us, 2 axemen and 2 spearmen, too bad I sent the axemen out X_X currently only one is close enough to defend Carthage, and one will be done in several turns (I suggest whip).

T16: The Ottomans are attacking as well! Tiwanaku is in great danger (2 archers, 2 chariots)

T17: The 'Mids are built, I save here in hopes someone else will save us from the German-Ottoman threat.

Since Fox isn't here, I'll have to crack the whip

Cuzco should be growing by working the FP first. We don't need hammers on the backline - we need commerce. So we should also be building cottages near Cuzco. Not building a plains hill mine that won't get worked for ages. Grow to the happy cap - we have room to spare! Also, I wouldn't bother with the barb city for now - we should focus on vertical growth back there to support more troops on the front line.

Tiwanaku needs a spear, not an axe. Carthage needs to whip axes. It's better to work the pigs and grow into unhappy and do a 2 pop axe whip so that you can get 2 axes for the price of one whip penalty.

Roster:
shyuhe
Paulus III
BurnEmDown just played
Ralph_Jackson - UP (take your time)
GreyFox (on deck after vacation)

Yeah I figured out we need a spear since the chariots own axes, but forgot to change it. About growing and MMing I don't no nothing about it XD.

I am back, so treat it as I am officially on deck after RJ .... hmm ... doesn't look too promising on the immediate threat, but general progress on development is okay, I think. Have to look at the save more closely once I have the time.

Ok so we start off in a very tight situation..

1. Our two front line cities have a single Quecha each for defence
2. With two decent sized incoming stacks which will reach them before all but one of our axes can get back to defend...

So here is the plan

1. Tiwanaku will whip in a Spear on Turn 1
2. This will probably die but should take the chariots with it.
3. Now with careful MM we should generate (just!!) enough gold to then upgrade the Quecha to a Spear to continue holding the city whilst the southern Axe comes back.
4. In the North we will leave the part-built axe in the queue as that will be a two pop whip once we hit Size 4 so it will put hammers into a Spear whilst growing which the whip overflow will just about complete.
5. We position the two axes either side of Fred’s Stack but across the river in the hope he will burn his troops attacking across a river buying us time to get the defenders up and running.

Civics.

Although Police State would be nice we can’t afford the Anarchy and byt the time we can afford it will probably prefer Representation for the boost.

@BurnEmDown

A few friendly observations (how we all learn) don’t ever leave prevent growth (Carthage) turned on as it is the truly “The Devil’s Button” and can lead to nasty results and upset teams.. Luckily I spotted it whilst planning my MM.



This game is a good time for you to learn the MM skills which you will need to win at Emperor+
So let me talk you through what MM I did

Stage 1. What should cities focus on

1. Capital food to grow
2. Tiwanaku. Only has three good tiles (farms +mine) so just work these but look to open a good 4th tile
3. Carthage. Food to get to size 4

Now for the Micro bit...

We have 60 Gold but need 80 to upgrade a Quecha which we will need to hold onto Tiwanaku. Now to get the extra gold necessary (+10 a turn) I dial down research to 0% and also work the lake at Carthage (1 less food than the floodplain but 2 extra gold)

So there you are a small MM lesson which I think is always two stages,

1. first what do you want cities to concentrate on
2. and then envisage what you want from them in a couple of turns (e.g cash for an upgrade or the Axe at Carthage with just enough hammers put in to it to be ready for a 2 pop whip) and arrange the tiles you work to make that happen.

So back to the game.

Well we survived the first wave with Fred blowing his stack on the set-up x river attacks and our whipped in spear gallantly dying before we even got to see him holding Tiwanaku.

The careful MM meant on turn 2 the Quecha was promoted to a Spear (needs 1 more experienc to unlock HE) and with an Axe getting close to the city we should be able to hold it.

In the Meantime the Oracle was BIADL and we soon see in the next stack that Fred did a feudalism Slingshot!!.



With judicious whipping the cities are now holding but it was darn close!!

With writing in the capital starts on a Library as we research Archery as we need decent defenders and it also lets our capital contribute to this (it’s not connected to Copper) whilst our Frontline cities can build more offensive stacks..

In other news

A decent Random Event if nothing spectacular



Our Great Spy is awaiting a plan (Tech Stealing from Fred I guess??)



Our First GG has been settled as I suspect we will pop another GW fuelled one before we need a Super Medic Stack protector.



Our cities are fairly well held now although Carthage’s horse have been pillaged and need repastureing




At Tiwanaku its defenders are protecting the workers who are chopping away forest so attackers are more exposed but at least its Corn is up and running.

We have swallowed the Representation anarchy and with 2 scientists and two cottages running in the capital our research is now progressing well.

Capital is building a settler as we can afford another tech commerce focussed city between it and Cathage.

Archery is in so we need to agree research plan (IW selected but no beakers in yet)
Options.

1. Alphabet for Spies so we can use our Great Pie bomb or do we just settle him in the Capital?
2. Iron Working. Would be nice not to depend on just one source at our front lines as it was hard to prevent it being pillaged
3. Or Maths for a catapult beeline??

Thanks for the advices, I'll put them to good use next time.
I don't think catapults are what we need right now, maybe longbows or crossbows, but I guess crossbows are a long way ahead.

Nice set Ralph! And very solid advice too.

Looking at where the enemy units are, I'm guessing that Hammurabi is NW, Fred is W, Suleiman SW, and Augustus SE. Fred with LB is not good, as we need a higher strength unit to defend against strength 6 LB. Augustus with praets is well... just plain annoying. At least fortified axes should have decent odds against them. So for the time being, I think we're going to have to play defensively as we try to set up some more cities. We can block off a huge chunk of the map (I think we can get roughly ~25%) by filling in the cities on the penninsula. So getting cities won't be an issue. But we need more production cities.

Now unfortunately, there are no hills between Cuzco and Carthage So we're probably going to end up making a mass of commerce cities in that area (unless we're going to whip an army). So I think we need to somehow expand our borders on the fringes and get another city with multiple hills in its BFC. To do that, we'll want a mix of defensive troops to hold our positions. Construction is actually VERY tempting at this stage of the game as elephants will rule the map for a while.

Does anybody remember the distribution pattern of ivory on pangaea maps? I can't recall if they're normally clustered or spread across.

EDIT: I rolled up a few future pangaea maps. There is generally one big ivory patch (2-3 sources) and then 1-2 isolated sources of ivory (one each). Looks like we got an isolated source so at least one other AI will probably show up with elephants.

As for the GSpy, I don't think we want to infiltrate just yet. To make use of the EP, we'll have to tech alphabet and we need military techs first. The two options that come to mind are sending him around as a scout for the time being to figure out who's where and if anybody else has ivory etc. I think it'll give us a better idea of how to strategize long-term. The other alternative is to settle him and spread the EP's so that we can see AI research. Since no tech trading is on, each AI must tech the military techs on their own. So knowing who's going where may help us too. I don't know which of these is stronger - a representation boosted GSpy is pretty awesome.

Techwise, we definitely want IW. Both to reveal iron (a great tile) and for swords (anti-LB for lack of anything better). After that, I think math -- construction to enable elephants. As for connecting Cuzco and Carthage to transport ivory, I think we should build a city on the 1 tile isthmus and use sailing.


Roster:
shyuhe - UP
Paulus III
BurnEmDown
Ralph_Jackson just played
GreyFox - UP