HUI Game #1 - Pacal II

learner gamer said:

Given your success in taking the city, am I right to presume that she did not therefore whip an extra defender whilst you crossed the river? For the record, do you know if she had bronze working when you attacked? Either way, I agree with your conclusion in a later post that you were likely just one (whipped) archer away from failing to take Moscow – but well done for doing so!

One last thing...any reason why you’re not whipping either the monument or a granary in Novgorod? Looking forward to seeing you finish Cathy.

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She did whip one archer.

Not whipping in Novgorod - i was actually wanting the city to grow to at least 3 before whipping, is this bad?

Ok i have picked up a couple points regarding how we should take this forward,

1) Quite a few of you seem to think the Gems site is not a good idea, but i must say it is a tempting site, i'm sure i can get two settlers out real quick with all that food, is it a bad idea to take the gems and iron?
2) I went HBR to set up an army of HA but a very valid point regarding Shaka's Impi's has been brought forward, so i guess we'll switch tech paths and maybe head towards the economic techs of Currency & CoL.
3) Would Swords + Cats be the best option to take Shaka?

I know many of you have spoken about being able to expand peacefully but my play style is heavily based on lot of war early and settling down later in the game, ideally i would like my continent to myself if i can achieve it, so that i think would be my objective.

Definitely need to open borders and scout the land.

Thanks all for your feedback - obviously quite a few errors of judgement, thank you it will definitely help my game!

vicawoo said:

Let's talk rushing tactics. Did you go 2 city if you rush that late? My rush attempt was triple worker one city, I might have had 9 holkans (3 per archer), although 2 workers might have been sufficient (not sure though, around 9 tiles to road, with flood plains it was at least 24 worker turns, or up to 6 forests). I also wasted time improving the 3rd corn, which was clearly unnecessary by that point.

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I was going off the example I was doing way earlier in the thread, so yes, i already had two workers and 2 cities. It was basically two farms in the second city for whipping, chop/whip like mad in the first, and amass army - think I whipped about 6-7 times in total between the two cities. No cares at all about unhappy faces - all that mattered was size and speed of the army.

It wasn't optimal at that point, but I was curious to see if shafi could pull it off. If I had been playing this game as my own for real, probably would have aggressively settled 2 southern cities as fast as possible (forgetting the workers initially) to claim horse and ivory and then gone for an HA snowball - the map was set up well for that.

Shafi said:

Not whipping in Novgorod - i was actually wanting the city to grow to at least 3 before whipping, is this bad?

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Whipping is more efficient in converting food to hammers the smaller the city is, so unless unhappiness is an issue, it's probably best to whip sooner rather than later, especially since you're working an unimproved tile.

Can you post the save? It's hard to give too much advise without being able to poke around in the cities etc. But you're already at 4 cities, so you'll probably want to improve your economy before you expand too much more.

Shafi said:

Ok i have picked up a couple points regarding how we should take this forward,

1) Quite a few of you seem to think the Gems site is not a good idea, but i must say it is a tempting site, i'm sure i can get two settlers out real quick with all that food, is it a bad idea to take the gems and iron?
2) I went HBR to set up an army of HA but a very valid point regarding Shaka's Impi's has been brought forward, so i guess we'll switch tech paths and maybe head towards the economic techs of Currency & CoL.
3) Would Swords + Cats be the best option to take Shaka?

I know many of you have spoken about being able to expand peacefully but my play style is heavily based on lot of war early and settling down later in the game, ideally i would like my continent to myself if i can achieve it, so that i think would be my objective.

Definitely need to open borders and scout the land.

Thanks all for your feedback - obviously quite a few errors of judgement, thank you it will definitely help my game!

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Ok, you've got 4 cities, soon to be 5 when you finish Cathy, in 775 BC. I say keep expanding. Get the gem site asap - there's a nice hill in between all those resources. Make sure to garrison it well, and the hill will add a nice defensive bonus if (when) Shaka decides to attack.

HBR is fine if you're going to stay that small...but if I were you, I'd use that land to get more cities - you're in a great place to rex out the land. The wheat site near Mutal, the gem site, and surely there are other resources around. No reason you can't pretty quickly get to 10+ cities down while heading to currency/COL, then watch your economy come back. You probably won't even fall behind in tech with Shaka and Nappy as your neighbors. If you're anxious to war while doing that, then HBR and construction can be priorities after COL. You have a reasonable shot at a window of phants/cats, which can be VERY effective pre-longbows, even with a spear UU civ like Shaka.

So I'd say get some settlers out, claim that gem site, get the two economy techs while readying for more war. While constant warring is fun, it can be very effective to rush one civ, use the double land to build a nice empire, let the other civs develop their cities for you to take with superior tech.

michmbk said:

I was going off the example I was doing way earlier in the thread, so yes, i already had two workers and 2 cities. It was basically two farms in the second city for whipping, chop/whip like mad in the first, and amass army - think I whipped about 6-7 times in total between the two cities. No cares at all about unhappy faces - all that mattered was size and speed of the army.

It wasn't optimal at that point, but I was curious to see if shafi could pull it off. If I had been playing this game as my own for real, probably would have aggressively settled 2 southern cities as fast as possible (forgetting the workers initially) to claim horse and ivory and then gone for an HA snowball - the map was set up well for that.

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It's less efficient to whip after growing with grassland farms than it is to work mines if you don't have a granary (talking about the second city). A simple rubric would be grassland farms produce +1 food, but grassland mines produce -1 food +3 hammers.

vicawoo said:

It's less efficient to whip after growing with grassland farms than it is to work mines if you don't have a granary (talking about the second city). A simple rubric would be grassland farms produce +1 food, but grassland mines produce -1 food +3 hammers.

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I agree, but the second city didn't have much in the way of hills - I farmed two flood plains to get 4F on each. Not optimal, I totally agree, but was really just looking for speed.

Just to let everyone know i have attached the saved game file with the write ups for round 2 & 3.

Looking at the save, Shaka has already settled the two-gem site, so that discussion is moot.

Russia's current city looks to be on a hill and will be a pain in the neck until you capture it. There's also a Russian settler just south of Moscow. It'll probably settle three south of Moscow, which will put even more cultural pressure on that city. I think you need to eliminate Russia ASAP. Probably would be painful with Holkans, I would settle the iron city next (maybe 1N of the iron).

I dunno about tech path. Math opens up both construction and currency (and calendar eventually, if you can trade to backfill). It's probably too early for alpha since you just crippled the one good trading partner.

Oh, and you should definitely whip that monument in Nov. Build another farm, then start mining all those hills.

Shafi said:

She did whip one archer.

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Ahh, presumably that’s why combat lasted two rounds (we see you across the river from Moscow in 850 BC, presumably you cross the river next turn in 825 BC and then take the city two turns later in 775 BC.) As mentioned before, this makes your achievement in taking Moscow with the holkans even better! (Given, BTW, that I advocated against a holkan rush in favour of attacking with HAs, it also suggests that you should feel free to use me as a contrary indicator from this point! ) All that said, I’ll be very interested to see how you deal with what remains of Cathy’s empire given how quickly I've seen her rex in the past (particularly when DoW’d), proof of which is in the post by dr_s referring to her settler. Even though the point about the vulnerability of HAs against Shaka’s UU has already been well made by Kev, perhaps we will still see them in action after all. Then again, you may instead elect to use copper or iron to build / whip some axes & swords as an alternative – this, as has been noted, also has the advantage of building units far less vulnerable to Shaka’s UU. Depending on how quickly you and Cathy recover, I’m beginning to wonder if the real lesson we’re all learning here is just how important it is to cripple an opponent with an early rush. The next couple of rounds will certainly be well worth reading!

Shafi said:

Not whipping in Novgorod - i was actually wanting the city to grow to at least 3 before whipping, is this bad?

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On the subject of recovering after the rush, the issue of whipping both the monument and granary in Novgorod got me thinking (and typing!) Rather than just say “you should whip the monument”, the piece below therefore takes a quick look at the pros and cons and illustrates when (and why) whipping the monuments and granaries in both Novgorod and Moscow should be done. (Note: whilst I explain when the monument should be whipped in both cities, the explanation of why whipping the granary should be done when the food bar is half full is well explained here.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=178491

If though, something is not clear in that piece, just let me know and, with Shafi’s permission, I’ll scrawl a few lines.)

So, moving on, when should a monument be whipped in Novgorod? Well, as we can see from the screenie, Novgorod is currently working a farmed riverside plains tile providing 4F 1C, an unimproved floodplain providing 3F 1C and the 2F 1H 1C tile right in the centre of the BFC. You’ve also put four turns of production into the monument. Looking at the save, thanks for which, I note the food bar is at 16/24 and the food display to the left is 9-4.

As things stand therefore, you are currently gaining 1F (which is the surplus food on the working the unimproved floodplain tile) and 1C at the expense of getting no culture from the city. This is so since, if you whipped the monument now, you’d lose the surplus food and commerce the tile is generating but gain one culture per turn.

Now, admittedly, it’s not 100% unambiguous but I think it’s reasonably clear that you want to be whipping the monument in Novgorod after one more turn. The reasons for this are (i) so you can expand your borders when culture gets to 10 points and gain access to the resources in the outer ring of your BFC (ii) gaining culture of course also helps reduce any cultural pressure from Cathy should some become present (who knows where Cathy's settler is headed?) (iii) popping your borders will slow the movement of any foot based troops that Cathy may send your way after the peace treaty expires in 10 turns and (iv) by waiting one turn to whip the unimproved floodplain, you end the very next turn after with the monument built and the unimproved floodplain being worked again to maximise regrowth (ie. you hit the so called sweet spot for whipping).

Turning next to the granary in Novgorod, a little maths tells me that if you whip the monument as suggested and then regrow to size two, your food bin will be at 3/24 and food display 9-4 (having changed to 21/22 and 6-2 immediately post whip.) Now, as mentioned, the article referred to above makes it clear that the best time to whip a granary is when the food bar is about half full. (By contrast, the worst time to whip a granary is when the food bar is at either extreme - either very full or very empty.) With that in mind, you should invest two turns of production into the granary (so the food bar rises to 13/24) and whip it (which you can do for just one pop since you’re expansive), to ensure that Novgorod starts life as a size two city again (note you’ll lose your second pop again from the whip) with (if my maths is right) eleven food in the food bar, cutting the time dramatically it will take the city to grow to pop 3. Of course, the fact the city will now regrow much quicker with all this food in the food bar is why I’m also advocating that you whip the monument – so you can work the marble or elephants (or indeed another floodplain) ASAP before Cathy gets rexing.

Now Moscow by contrast is a slightly different kettle of fish because the save tells me that only one of the squares in the inner ring of its BFC has been improved. Its best resources are, by contrast, in the outer ring of the city’s BFC. For that reason, I’d suggest that you’ll be best served by not waiting to hit the sweet spot before whipping the monument. Instead, I’d be inclined to invest just one turn of production into the city’s monument and then whip it to start generating culture in the city, popping its borders ASAP.

Assuming you whip Moscow’s monument by sacrificing the mine (which I would do to facilitate faster regrowth), some more maths tells me that the city’s food bin (which will start at 0/26 and, assuming you work two forested grassland tiles and the mine, will display 7-6) will fall to 1/24 and the display will read 6-4. Moving onto the granary and again, assuming you wait until the food bar is half full before whipping it for one pop, I’d recommend investing 5 turns into its production (allowing the food bar to reach 11/24) and then cracking the whip. Analogously to the situation in Novgorod, I’d estimate that Moscow will then start life as a two pop city with 11 food stored away (assuming I’ve managed to do all the counting by fingers correctly. ) Of course, given that you are expansive, you could alternatively / also speed up the granary building by chopping a forest to yield 40 hammers pre-maths.

I hope this helps (and I hope it’s right!) If any of this is wrong, you have my apologies...my only defences are that it is late, I’m tired, a little intoxicated and I wanted to post this before you rise and shine in sunny Sri Lanka! If, BTW, anything is unclear just let me know.

PS Re: your tech path. I think it all depends on how quickly you can muster a fresh set of recruits to take out Cathy once and for all. If you can do it almost immediately following the research of HBR by aggressively whipping / chopping a combination of HAs, chariots and holkans in all your cities, go the HBR route. Given the amount of whipping and chopping already done though, that may not be possible. As a result, I’d be more inclined to heed the advice of dr_s regarding Cathy’s settler. If she does indeed settle near that copper (and, based on my previous encounters with her she may well try and settle a few more cities whilst the peace treaty is in effect too!), I’d be more inclined to grab some metal for myself. After all, if she were to be able to settle both the copper to Moscow’s SE and the iron to the E of Mutal (leaving you without any metal), I don’t think the consequences bear thinking about. That in turn suggests perhaps that rexing whilst going maths / construction may now be better for you. Then again, I have proven to be a contrary indicator in the past so what do I know!

learner gamer said:

Ahh, presumably that’s why combat lasted two rounds (we see you across the river from Moscow in 850 BC, presumably you cross the river next turn in 825 BC and then take the city two turns later in 775 BC.)

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Yes.

Thank you for the detailed post on the use of the whip.

OK, took another quick look at your save and suggest the following (depending on how much futher you've progressed since the save):

Mutal –
Use the holkan currently being produced to pop the hut that’s appeared to your north (and pray the villagers aren't hostile ), and then send him east to the clam / iron city site.
Build a settler and send them east to settle the iron.
Your next build depends on whether you intend to (i) re-declare soon after the peace treaty has expired or (ii) settle a couple more cities ASAP to try and box Cathy in by the coast. This is turn depends on what the land looks like to your south and how easy / hard the map makes it to box her in.
If you decide to box her in, you’ll need to build a couple of settlers in Mutal ASAP. If you’re going to re-declare ASAP rather than settle more cities, you need to speed up research so you can net the tech(s) you need for war. With that in mind, the next build in Mutal should, (perversely if preparing for a war), be a library so you can reassign two citizens as scientist specialists, even if this means ceasing to work the two cottages (so that you’re working the farms and mines to maximise production in the run up to war.) At present, those cottages are netting you 7 commerce per turn, which, at a 70% slider provides you 4.9 beakers per turn (BPT). Whilst running two science specialists at the expense of cottages reduces the long term benefit from working them at the mo’, I’d argue you need the boost to research now so you can beat Cathy to the key war techs, if you’re going to re-DoW ASAP and take her out (and I don’t mean to dinner!) Working two science specialists will provide 6BPT, slightly increasing research. More importantly, they will also furnish you with a great scientist 17 turns later, which you can (i) settle (not recommended) (ii) use to build an academy (slightly more preferable) or (iii) if my understanding of the bulb path is correct, lightbulb mathematics. To my mind, this is by far the best approach if you’re committed to researching HBR since maths will very handily grant access to construction and currency – two techs that will help you prepare for war and recover from it respectively. If you choose to research maths instead of HBR, use the great scientist to build an academy, which, with the science specialists and palace alone will provide an extra 7BPT.
Redeploy the worker currently building another cottage to either Moscow, Novgorod or your new iron city.

Novgorod –
This place is obviously your military pump. Whip the monument and granary as mentioned in my earlier post. Then build / whip a chariot (so you can quickly scout out the land to your south and see what is worth settling and how easy it will be to block in Cathy) followed by a barracks. Thereafter, its military and more military.

Lakhama –
Whip the barracks next turn, followed by military.

Tech path –
If settling the iron & clams site, detour to fishing (to build a workboat). After this, it depends (as mentioned above) on how soon you decide to re-declare and how much of HBR you’ve subsequently researched. Maths is however a key tech, opening up both construction and currency as noted.

Hope this helps. Look forward to reading how your game pans out.

Isnt there 2 Scientists aviable in Mutal to pop GScientist to bulb Maths? I think it wll be good idea to emphasize GS popping.

We open borders with Shaka & Napolean as recommended and hoping that Shaka’s religion will spread to us. Holkan is built in capital and we begin on a settler for hooking up the Iron site. Monument is whipped in Ivory city, Research is switched to Mathematics. Barracks whipped in horse city. Ivory city begins work on a Granary and horse city begins work on a chariot.
Cathy’s new city,

Since she now has access to copper, it has got to be a chariot based assault, although this means spears can be built as well, the AI would usually build axes and not spears until our stack shows up at their doorstep.

We sign open borders with Cathy. There’s the city on the hill …

Wont be easy to take. We whip the Granary in ivory city and monument in Moscow. Ivory city begins on a barrack and Moscow begins work on a granary. Mutal completes work on the settler and begins work on a chariot.
We continue to mass produce chariots in Mutal & Horse city for the final assault on Cathy. Moscow completes the granary and begins on a barrack.
Judaism spread to our lands and we convert !!!

We found Iron city.

We finish researching Mathematics and begin on fishing to hook up the clam resource in the Iron city. Ivory city & Moscow complete their builds and begin on chariots.
We complete researching Fishing and start on Alphabet, Mutal whips out a chariot and work on a Library.
Moscow is under cultural pressure …

Napolean comes around demanding for fishing and we give in to his arrogance, we will put him in his place in due time ….

Since we seem to have enough units for our invasion of Russia, Moscow changes begins building a library.
It’s time to DoW Cathy, the plan is to pillage the copper and take her copper city first, to avoid possibilities of running into spears.


And …. A grand total of one archer defending the city, hopefully she cant whip out a spear before we pillage the copper.
We pillage the copper and zoom in for the kill.


We lose one chariot in the process of taking the city, but it was a quick effective battle, so now we have Cathy without access to metals, basically a sitting duck !!!

As you can see, she has a grand total of two archers defending the remaining city of St Petersburg.
We hook up Iron and begin building swords in Ivory city. Meanwhile Iron city completes the granary and starts on a work boat to hook up the clam.

The siege of the last Russian city …

We lose four chariots in the process, but pull it off with a few units to spare, well that’s one AI out of the way ….

I think it was important that we pillaged the copper and took out the copper city first, to ensure there would be no complications.
Let’s take a closer look at the city we just captured, shall we ….

You see that? Another wonder to add to our collection , that’ll do nicely. A Great General is born in Horse city ….

My economy is in the tank , we now need to work on rebuilding fast. Our capital completes work on the library and we immediately start running two scientist specialists in the capital. Iron city completes the work boat and begins on a barrack, meanwhile horse & ivory cities keep pumping out metal based units – a mix of axes for defense and Swords for offence.
We complete researching Alpha and begin on currency, I teched Alpha ahead of currency hoping to backfill some techs quickly, however might have been an error in judgment since both of my neighbors seem to be technologically backwards. We begin on a settler in our capital with the intention of settling this site,

We decide to build walls in horse city for additional defense as I am still vary of Shaka.

And we find Napoleon’s borders …

A favorable random event . We find barb cities near both Nappy & Shaka’s borders.


Our capital completes work on the settler and begins building research to get us to Currency ASAP. We send an attacking party to take the southern barb city for the gold and the XP, of course we cant afford to keep it and will have to raze the city.

A look at the defensive forces stationed at horse city, in case Shaka comes knocking, as soon as my economy is back on track Shaka must die, I just know I am going to sleep a lot easier knowing Shaka is not around.

And heres a look at the map,




So here are some of the areas I would like your help with,

1)What do I do with my GG
2)We will be popping a Great Scientist from the capital shortly, what do we do with him?
3)Suggested dot map for the land to the south?
4)Suggested tech path?
5)Who do I kill first? Shaka or Nappy?
Save game attached.

Well played. I do have a few comments though:
1) Your population is low and your cities are barely growing. I don't see very many happiness resources so I'm assuming your happy cap is low. Reseach Monarchy or better yet get Calendar (do you have Sailing) and improve that Banana and Dye near Moscow.
2) Make sure to settle that city with Rice and Ivory that you marked ASAP. It's a very good site. Also settle a city up north to grab that Silver when you get a chance.
3) Going to war at this point is not in your best interest imo. Gobble up that land down south instead while maintaining a decent army to defend against attacks and you'll skyrocket ahead of the AI by the Renaissance with superior land and Financial trait.

I think you're well on your way to victory.

Cottages!

You're financial, and barely breaking even. You should be cottaging to high heaven now. Forget about units - keep what you need for defense. They're probably just costing you money at this point that's not worth it.

You've done a good rush, but now you need to recover. Currency is good. Definitely CoL next. Build libraries ASAP so you can get scientists in your cities.

And then you want to think about specializing your cities. For each city, decide how to specialize it. Mutal should definitely be your GP farm - I'd try to get in to caste/HR soon and let it grow big. Novgorod with all the FP should be cottaged 100%. 6 cottages instead of what you're working now will be at least an extra 12 commerce - which at this stage is big. Lakhamba (horse city) looks to be a good production city. It won't be very good until Bio, but will still be decent enough early game. I'd probably move the cap to Moscow, cottage it up, and use it as a bureaucracy capital.

Then for the other 2 Russian cities, decide on them. With the corn to share between 3 cities, I'd encourage heavy micromanagement. Make sure someone's always using it. Then you also have the grassland cow to share between the 2 other Russian cities, which is a great tile.

Otherwise, you're going good. You need to recover now, though. Looking through, I'd also seriously consider chopping every forest you can lay eyes on. Bring expansive, with all 3 grains, fish, clam, cow, banana all already in your borders, your cities will still be healthy even once you get factories in each one.

Very, very well played Shafi! I really didn’t think you’d be able to take Cathy out so soon after the peace treaty expired. I’m learning all the time, so thank you!

I think UWHabs and Dankok8 have summarised much of the strategy to follow from here really well. For what it’s worth, my $0.02 is as follows:

Re: the tech path, I agree with Dankok8 that one of the key constraints you currently face is your low happy cap. Indeed, one of the primary barriers preventing a rise in the research rate at the mo’ is that the low happy cap is preventing you from working many more cottages in your cities, even if you decide to build them. (Until you can work more cottages, accelerating research therefore seems to me to be at least partly dependent on building either it or wealth (post currency)). To that end, I’d be inclined to next research either (i) calendar (assuming Shaka will gift you sailing) to raise your happy cap by two (NB you also have spices NW of Chichen Itza as well as the dye Dankok8 mentioned) or (ii) construction which, with your UB, will raise your happy cap by three. After either of these have been completed, then, depending on how significant maintenance costs have become, I’d either research the other or code of laws, and then complete the trio. Given that Nappy is, (according to your save), currently annoyed with you and has (i) construction and (ii) metal casting on you, it may be that researching construction next is actually the way to go. Whilst teching monarchy for HR by the way has its merits, (since it will make use of your army to grant happiness), researching both construction and later calendar (although hopefully you can subsequently trade for this one), will provide your cities with five extra happiness, (once ball courts and plantations are built), that is independent of your army’s ability to stay garrisoned. That’s alot of cottage tiles.

Personally, I’d attach the GG to a chariot to create a MASH unit for future wars...as you imply, the continent’s simply not big enough for the three of you! Settling it in Novgorod (for more XP from what I think is your military pump, but see below) is however not without merit, as is settling it in Moscow so the city can produce 8XP units (again though see below).

Now that you have alphabet and maths, you have an interesting choice re: what to do with your soon to appear great scientist. Conventional wisdom would of course suggest using it for an academy, particularly given the need to recover your economy. However, I understand that the next tech it’ll bulb is currently aesthetics, which, if you get it and polytheism, puts you on the road to literature for the GL and the epics, making full use of your marble. On balance, the academy’s probably still the best choice given your likely tech path and lack of techs available to trade for aesthetics, but I just thought I’d make you aware of the alternative.

Rather than pursuing war against Shaka or Nappy, UWHabs and Dankok8 are right IMHO to suggest prioritising the need to currently both (i) recover your economy and (ii) settle the two city sites. Even though settling both cities will only accentuate your empire’s current economic crisis (hey whaddya know, you’re civ’s having a credit crunch in 250AD ), the double ivory / rice / cow site is a beauty and you need silver to raise your happy cap.

As far as your existing cities are concerned, I’d suggest the following:

Mutal: build research until currency and then a market.

Lakhama: build / whip a settler for the wheat / silver site. Out of curiosity, is there any reason why you’ve currently got a worker pasturing a cow to the W, just outside the city’s BFC? Is it to connect the cows so they're available for trade?

Novgorod: with respect to UWHabs (who’s probably a better player than me and so may well be right!), I’d still suggest that Novgorod will be your military pump since, by my estimation, you’ll need to farm all but two of the floodplains, (depending on what you do with the grassland tile), in the city to work the mines pre-biology. Moreover, it’s got more hills in its BFC for production than many other cities. (With that in mind UWHabs, what am I missing? It would be good for me to learn – oh, and please be gentle with your criticism, I’m a delicate soul! ) Right now though, I’d have this city finish its sword before whipping / building, (perversely in a potential heroic epic site), a library (since the two ivory tiles mean the city is also currently your third best commerce city.) Thereafter, depending on how your economy looks following the settling of the double ivory site, either have Novgorod build a unit to garrison the silver city (unless the sword or another unit heads there) or, heaven forbid, use those hammers to temporarily build research, or a market post currency. Alternatively, if you think the economy can handle it (and you can get there in time), how about a settler for 1S, 1SE of the iron I can see just SW of your soon to be new double ivory city. Looking at your map, that site would certainly box Shaka in nicely!

Moscow is a real prize capture but also poses a dilemma – its rivers and dye say commerce city but, given its production, settled GG and the boost it’ll get from a levee later, it looks to be a late game production monster. Given the imminent need for cottages and the fact that turning this city into a production monster will also require watermills and replacement parts however, I’d be inclined to cottage this city as your happy cap rises. If you need food, farm the bananas until calendar. As for builds, I’d suggest either a worker or research at the mo, then a market post currency.

Rostov: See if you can get your best chum Shaka to gift you sailing (which I note he has from the save.) If so, gradually cottage this city and build a lighthouse ASAP. I note you currently have three workers around the city. Rather than have them improve tiles you currently can’t work because of the happy cap (which currently allows you to work only one more tile), I’d redeploy them to either the double ivory site or build a road to the wheat / silver city site so you can get that new city productive with the wheat, and connect and mine the silver to raise that happy cap ASAP. If Shaka won’t gift you sailing OTOH, I’d suggest building research and then a market post currency.

St. Petersburg: Re-assign the tiles you’re working here to (i) emphasize commerce (which is doubly important since Cathy has kindly built an academy for you here) and (ii) regrowth (since this is one of your few cities which has room to work more tiles at this point.) So, work the fish tile instead of the coastal tile and the cow instead of the mine. Redeploy the two workers near the city (one of whom is currently building a mine) to cottage the city’s floodplain so it can be worked ASAP. If you want more production out of the city, have the workers then build a cottage on a surrounding plains tile as opposed to a mine. Interestingly, I notice that St. Petersburg also has a working lighthouse built by Cathy for you (she was a sweetheart, wasn’t she ), which works even though you don’t have sailing. Is this a bug of some kind?

Chichen Itza: If Shaka will gift you sailing, build or whip a lighthouse (instead of the currently selected workboat). If you find the economy’s continuing to struggle post settling the two new cities or if Shaka won’t gift you sailing, I’d suggest this city is a candidate for short term research or wealth building (post currency) until it gets a market.

Once again, I’ve managed to get value for my $0.02 and, as always, I look forward reading your next instalment!

PS Re: espionage. I note from your save that Nappy's power has been rising almost as quickly as yours but you can't see Shaka's yet. Is it worthwhile focussing your EP on him for a while, at least until you can see his power rating?

I think this is the same point UWHabs made, but cottages, currency and COL while taking the barb city and then settling south in a few more spots. That'll be a winning position.

Where are your cottages outside of Mutal - 7 cities should not be breaking the bank for you like they are, which tells me that more cottages are in order. Novgorod should be cottaged to the hilt at this point.

Cottages, currency, COL - along with continuing to rex, you'll be in a dominant position. GS from the capital probably should be used for an academy in the capital if you don't otherwise have one.

Your big problems right now are happiness and commerce.

You should probably trade alpha to Shaka for sailing and archery. That would open up the possibility of foreign trade routes, although you'll probably have to send some chariots out to locate their cities. You could also build lighthouses in your coastal cities.

If you switch to Med, you could spread your religion and increase happiness that way. (Though Shaka is doing that for you ...) You could also build monasteries for +10% science. If you then got Priesthood, you could build temples, more happiness. It's also on the way to Monarchy.

You realize that you're Napoleon's worst enemy, right?

Why are you improving a cow tile that's not in the BFC of one of your cities?

Don't settle another city with that settler, it's too early.

I don't like the placement of Chichen Itza. Why not one west?

I would keep Novogorod as a production city, rather than cottaging it. It's your best hammer city and there are plenty of other places to build cottages.

As to your questions:

(1) You should settle your GG. I would settle in Novogorod.
(2) Build an academy, in Mutal or Moscow. Build more cottages in Moscow.
(3) No more cities for a while.
(4) You need lots of techs. You need to get to currency and monarchy ASAP, I think.
(5) You'll probably be at war with Napoleon first, when he DOWs you.

learner gamer said:

Novgorod: with respect to UWHabs (who’s probably a better player than me and so may well be right!), I’d still suggest that Novgorod will be your military pump since, by my estimation, you’ll need to farm all but two of the floodplains, (depending on what you do with the grassland tile), in the city to work the mines pre-biology. Moreover, it’s got more hills in its BFC for production than many other cities. (With that in mind UWHabs, what am I missing? It would be good for me to learn – oh, and please be gentle with your criticism, I’m a delicate soul! ) Right now though, I’d have this city finish its sword before whipping / building, (perversely in a potential heroic epic site), a library (since the two ivory tiles mean the city is also currently your third best commerce city.) Thereafter, depending on how your economy looks following the settling of the double ivory site, either have Novgorod build a unit to garrison the silver city (unless the sword or another unit heads there) or, heaven forbid, use those hammers to temporarily build research, or a market post currency. Alternatively, if you think the economy can handle it (and you can get there in time), how about a settler for 1S, 1SE of the iron I can see just SW of your soon to be new double ivory city. Looking at your map, that site would certainly box Shaka in nicely!

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You are correct in that Novgorod is probably the top production city, with farmed FP/hills. I actually forgot about all the hills around it - with them, it'd be good for either purpose. Long-term, it's probably better as a production city, especially if you can settle the jungle. But the economy is right on the breaking point. Settling another city soon it'll almost be crashing, and being financial, cottages give you a big boost right away. And it's one of the few cities set up to work cottages right away (since other cities all are busy working special squares).

But I should mention that I'm no expert, but that's what I'd do. I think short term gain of cottage city is more useful than the long term production city. And hey, if you want, you can even plow over the cottages (as sacrilegious as that is) to get a production city later.

Other notes, someone mentioned Chicken Itza would be better 1W. That's true too. One big rule is to not be afraid of overlap. 1W all it does is remove a bunch of water tiles. Better to move it inland, and let it work a few extra cottages (especially if Mutal ends up being a GP farm - it shouldn't end up working more than 4-5 tiles anyways).