HUI Game # 3 - Suleiman

I-imp said:

Deary me, usually I just skip the introduction paragraphs of everything since they are so similar.

Apologies.

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Thats quite ok, dont worry about it . Thanks for taking off the content though - i would'nt want anyone taking a peak and giving me advice based on what they see.

Thanks
Shafi.

Quick question guys, i am in the middle of the next round, and Pacal has dropped to cautious since he has adopted FR, whats Pacal's personality like? Should i worry about at all?

Having looked at dj_anion’s guide there is a 50% chance of Pacal’s AI overruling a DoW at cautious, 90% at pleased and he will not declare at friendly. So yes, there is now a higher chance that he will DoW you. However, remember that the DoW is based on factors like shared borders and power ratings etc. In my experience (which is now less than yours though ), keeping the latter high enough to deter a DoW (which you'll want to do since you share a border which increases the chance of a DoW) is not overly difficult given his tendency to build wonders. If you’re really concerned, get OB and scout him out, focus espionage on him so you can see what he’s building in his cities and try gifting a nominal sum of gold every 10 turns or so to delay the DoW. If you really need to, switching to monarchy (his favourite civic) may help boost him to pleased (although I note you’re already in rep) or you could even bribe someone else to attack him if it comes to that. Hope it goes well.

I have finished the next round, will try to post today, it's been another good round

Pacal as a neighbour is nice, he builds lots of wonders that you can capture later

Pacal is a wuss. He has a 300 iMarWarRand which makes it very unlikely for a DoW, combined with a 25 iBuildUnitProb. As pointed out, he makes nice empires for you to take over management.

@kossin: I understand what the iBuildUnitProb is but what is a iMarWarRand please?

kossin said:

Pacal is a wuss. He has a 300 iMarWarRand which makes it very unlikely for a DoW, combined with a 25 iBuildUnitProb. As pointed out, he makes nice empires for you to take over management.

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Indeed, I've also started playing this game a while ago, though I don't really like normal speed, its too fast for me. Look at pacals juicy capitol. It's now under ottoman management!



EDIT: I just realised the world map shows in that screenshot so I've added spoiler tags. It might reveal something about your other rivals.

learner gamer said:

@kossin: I understand what the iBuildUnitProb is but what is a iMarWarRand please?

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The AI has several war methods in can use. (Dagger, Max War, Dogpile, Limited war, refuse demand war (sneak or prepared)).

It's better explained by a thread on AI DoW Mechanisms. You can find it on Dirk's signature if the search function doesn't bring it up.

Basically, it's the regular war-preparation mode where the AI goes WHEOORN and attacks when it's ready.

The higher the Var, the less likely for a DoW - take Shaka for example, he has a 50 iMaxWarRand - Gandhi is at 400.

All right here we go then, so my plan is basically to set up my cities to run plenty of farms and specialists for research + WS’s for production and look to Pick up steel from Lib and use an army Of cannons + Janissaries to Conquer the world, or at least the continent and shoot for UN “Diplomation” win.
We start by opening borders with Pacal and then begging some gold off both of our buddies Pacal and Freddy. We also immediately switch research to CS for the chain irrigation + Bureaucracy. Meanwhile Hammy comes begging for Alphabet and I give in for the moment.
We finish researching Civil Service and resume researching Metal casting, we also immediately revolt to Bureaucracy. I also trade Currency + CoL for Freddy for Monarchy + construction. We complete researching MC and research Calendar and then Paper.
We generate our 2nd GS and settle him in the capital,



Meanwhile Hammy declares on Pacal so we could potentially get called into this war, which I don’t want as I am definitely not ready , we’ll see I guess …
We complete researching Paper and begin on Machinery, I would probably use my next GS for bulbing Philosophy. We trade Monotheism to Freddy for Hunting + World Map + Some gold to save time on scouting. We then peddle the map around to the rest and net about 75 gold.
We take the Barb city to the north, raze it and settle a city in our plan location slightly to the west of it.



We finish researching Machinery and begin on Feudalism since I did’nt realize that I could have skipped Guilds on my way to Steel (Gunpowder is available through the education path), anyways the faster I have guilds the better since I will be using lots of WS’s.
We take this deal from Peter, since I will definitely look to head for literature for the two epics sooner rather than later.



Our 3rd GS is born and we use him to bulb Education partially, and I switch research to Philosophy as I realize I can’t bulb it anymore. Meanwhile Pacal and Hammy make peace, I think Hammy picked up a city from Pacal during that war, anyways we did’nt get dragged in so .
And a few turns later,



We are the first to Philosophy and found Taoism, we begin researching Education. Meanwhile I get a notification regarding the Vandals barb uprising event … arrghh .
I take the following deal from Peter even though the deal is a bit a thin, mind you at this point I was thinking I needed to get guilds to open up gunpowder,



We also begged some gold from Freddy & Pacal. We revolt to Pacifism to boost up the GP generation. Oh and I forgot to mention that after getting Aesthetics …



Had a go at the Parthenon . I really did’nt expect to get it, as it seemed very late in the game but it just seems to be my lucky game. So things are going well now, we got the Parthenon in the bag, finish off education and begin researching Gunpowder next as we look to set up Steel to pick up from Lib. We produce another GS and settle him in the capital, we should be popping them like crazy with Parthenon + Pacifism



Hang on second, Pacal suddenly drops to cautious, closer inspection reveals that he adopted FR , for a moment I am stunned as the first thing that runs through my mind is that he got to Lib before me but then I realize that’s impossible cos I was keeping tabs and a few turns ago he didn’t have paper, I go check the tech screen and he still doe’snt have paper, so he must have picked up the wonder that enables all religious civics, we quickly confirm our suspicions and breathe a lot easier.
Peter comes around begging for Civil Service and we tell him to bugger off, which puts him to annoyed, so we cut a deal with him HBR + Literature for Paper + some small change.



We finish Gunpowder and research Engineering next for Chemistry, time to start building Janissaries I guess so we get started with amassing an army. Another GS and we settle him in Istanbul.



We complete researching engineering and begin on Chemistry, I trade Paper to Pacal for 460 gold.



I also take the time to focus all my espionage points on Pacal now as he is definitely the first target once we have our army ready to March. Meanwhile we also happened to pick up,



The Great Library … , I was not too sure if I should have a go at it since I would be heading down the scientific method path pretty quickly to gain access to Biology and communism to make those Farms + WS’s really shine. So the life time of the GL is going to be relatively short and is it worth the investment? Anyways it’s fun building wonders …
We also happen to accidentally generate a GM and burn him for our first Golden Age.



Another couple of GS’s shortly thereafter and we settle them both in the capital, we seem to be having a GP generation boom ! Meanwhile chemistry is researched and we begin on Liberalism finally.



A few turns later,



We win the Lib race and pick up steel as the free tech to set up a nice platform from where to dominate the world, so this is where I am going to end this round, I have been building Janissaries since getting to gunpowder and have a decent sized force now, once we have around 10 or so cannons we would be good to go, here’s a look at the power ratings,



Much better than at the end of the last round, and a look at Pacal’s puny little empire …



And the empire’s of the rest of the AI’s on our continent …



I begin researching Nationalism for the Taj + also to employ drafting if required.

And that’s it for this round, look forward to hearing your opinions all though I daresay we seem to have got this one in the bag …

Firstly, many thanks kossin for your reply...you continue to make me all too aware of how little I know about the game.

Shafi, very, very well played! If this is what emperor is like, you’re right, I’ll have to give it a go!

Right, back to your game. Obviously getting those wonders helped, but I note that you generated a large number of GS in that round. Out of curio, did you do that by concentrating the GP points in one city or, as the save suggests, spread them around by running multiple scientists in several cities? Given that the wonders (especially the Parthenon) went late-ish, I wonder (no pun intended ) what that tells us about the civs on the other continent? I look forward to finding out.

Going forward, the key now is obviously to balance siege and unit production (with maybe even the odd spy – although I note from past games, this is the sole area where your luck doesn’t seem to hold ), so I guess that its cannons for a little while given how many jans you already have? If so, is it worthwhile switching Samsun’s production to a cannon?

Talking of production, I note a number of cities are missing forges but, given that you’ve managed to nab some wonders instead, that seems like great trade off IMHO. I presume the next key infrastructure builds are universities (which you’re starting) and Oxford? At some point, you’re likely also going to need a market or two (most likely in Ankara, Gaziantep and Diyarbakir) given the position of the slider and GPT as I’m sure you know. BTW, I presume its courthouses next for Konya and Gaziantep?

I wonder if the slider will also influence the tech path at this point. After all, the diplo situation (amongst Peter and Fred, and Hammy and Pacal respectively) may mean that trading is going to be a little more difficult from this point on – IIRC though, you can still trade paper for music to Hammy without aggravating anyone further. Now others will doubtlessly know this better than me, but IMHO, the value of nationalism at the mo’ is really in the Taj for a commerce boosting golden age. After all, (i) I’m not sure that the food surplus you have means that a huge amount of drafting is possible even though you’d like to boost the army’s size from #4 in the demographics screen (ii) given the proportion of research coming from specialists, you obviously want to leave them in place rather than lose them to generate a bigger food surplus for drafting; and (iii) drafting a huge stack may mean you need to look at whether pacifism can continue to be run given the military costs that would result.

To that end, I note that the GM from economics hasn’t gone yet. I wonder as a result if it’s not worthwhile going guilds > banking > economics > compass > optics to nab the GM and send him on an overseas trade mission? After all, adding one or both of a grocer and bank to Istanbul would do wonders for your economy and the grocer and harbour would help raise both there and in Edirne. (Note that settling 1S of the NE deer would also help raise .) Being able to build caravels for overseas exploration would also allow you to find potential new trading partners. If you go this route, then maybe it’s onto nationalism and military tradition afterwards (if you trade for music), for cuirassiers to smack Peter around before he gets his UU? Of course, I understand that you may be planning to go this latter route now – and simply raise your cash by Pacal. Thoughts anyone?

Talking of the tech path BTW, this made me chuckle:

Shafi said:

We finish researching Machinery and begin on Feudalism since I did’nt realize that I could have skipped Guilds on my way to Steel (Gunpowder is available through the education path)

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After all, I recall I made exactly the same error when we were discussing whether to grab cannons or other techs in HUI 1!

Looking at trades a little more, how about trading paper to Hammy for music as I mentioned? Although he’ll want some cash to sweeten the deal, you can then trade paper to Fred for theology and cash to get some back. In resource trades, how about swapping a spare wheat for some of Fred’s cash and your spare gold for Peter’s cash?

When it comes to micro, you need a road on the workshop S, SE of Diyarbakir for faster connections. I presume the chaps roading the horses will be onto it in a jiffy. That aside, if I’m not mistaken, Fred’s worker seems to be building the other road you need in the NW. He’s a nice chap really, isn’t he?

Is the game in the bag? Well, you’re certainly doing brilliantly, that I do know...and destroying Pacal will give you some monster holy cities which, even though only the Mahabodhi exists at the mo’, will certainly increase BPT by raising the slider. However, I’m going to be interested to see how the Confucian / Buddhist dynamic plays out. I think the game’s getting really interesting...and I look forward to seeing how you go.

This really turned out to be an easy Emperor game - combined with a strong civ and a good leader. All those wonders left unbuilt so late

One thing you could have done differently is build Trebuchets prior to getting Steel, use the GM on a trade mission and upgrade them to Cannons (80 a piece).

What I'd do: scrap science buildings -> focus on growth + production (granaries, lighthouses, forges).
Trade paper to Fred for Theo+
Revolt to Slavery+Theo
Whip an army, take out the continent as vassals so you can force their research -> Astronomy and after ->Communism while you focus on more military techs (rifles/infantry).

Pacal should capitulate after 2 cities (Mayapan+Mutal), Hammy shouldn't be much longer but his cities are a bit more spread. Freddy could take 3 cities before capping, and Peter similarly. Of course this will be altered as you vassal AIs which will make your power grow.

Anyway, well played, you just have to clean up what's left.

^^^whip rather than draft....trade 4 scientists for an army....sounds like a much better plan.

learner gamer said:

Shafi, very, very well played! If this is what emperor is like, you’re right, I’ll have to give it a go!

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I actually checked my game settings a couple of times to see if it was Emperor

learner gamer said:

Right, back to your game. Obviously getting those wonders helped, but I note that you generated a large number of GS in that round. Out of curio, did you do that by concentrating the GP points in one city or, as the save suggests, spread them around by running multiple scientists in several cities?

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No i had specialists running in multiple cities, My capital was the only city with cottages you will see (this was for the Bueracracy bonus), the rest of the cities were covered in as many farms as i could get, and the cities to the south with lots of green, were my research cities so they were running high numbers of scientists so yeah the GP points were spread, but what you should remember is that my primary purpose was not GP generation but rather research itself, i hardly have any commerce in my empire and i am fuelling research through the specialists.

learner gamer said:

so I guess that its cannons for a little while given how many jans you already have? If so, is it worthwhile switching Samsun’s production to a cannon?

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I need more cannons & Jans, those cities will probably be pumping out units non stop till the end of the game

learner gamer said:

I presume the next key infrastructure builds are universities (which you’re starting) and Oxford?

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Yup, already on it.

learner gamer said:

At some point, you’re likely also going to need a market or two (most likely in Ankara, Gaziantep and Diyarbakir) given the position of the slider and GPT as I’m sure you know. BTW, I presume its courthouses next for Konya and Gaziantep?

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Actually i dont agree, if you toy around a bit you will realise that the slider does not really contribute much to my research, so it is not a major priority but yeah i might squeeze in some courthouses wherever i can, maybe grocers for some health which i seem to be lacking. In this type of game where your research is coming from specialists slider is not too important in my opinion.

learner gamer said:

the diplo situation (amongst Peter and Fred, and Hammy and Pacal respectively) may mean that trading is going to be a little more difficult from this point on – IIRC though, you can still trade paper for music to Hammy without aggravating anyone further.

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Well ... now that i am in war mode, my thoughts were more like, i am going to trade what i want with who i want, anybody wanna object can talk to the barrel of my cannon . Seriously i am not too concerned about diplo now, as i will quickly have the continent as my vassals.

@ kossin - i actually played quite a bit of the next round before i read your post (i lost internet connectivity for a few hours and was a bit eager to get on with the game) so some of the suggestions were not really incorporated but thanks for the feedback as always

So, we won the Lib race, we got Cannons and my plan is to win a Diplomatic victory – See I’m a peacenik . Seriously though my plan is to Take over the continent with Cannons + Janissaries build the UN and have my peeps vote for me. So here’s how we go about it,

We complete Nationalism and begin researching Guilds next for the bonus to WS’s. Meanwhile the military buildup continues. We trade Paper to Freddy for compass + 100 gold. I make some resource trades with Peter and Hammy, at his point my thoughts are to hell with diplomacy, there’s easier ways to manage the situation like Cannons .

Another GS is born and we settle him in Istanbul (I have stopped taking screenies of the GS’s as it’s getting a bit old in my opinion), We complete researching Guilds, then banking and begin on Economics next. For those who are counting another GS is born and sent to Istanbul to spend the rest of his days there.

Time for us to roll out the Grand plan, we DoW Pacal and take the first of his cities.



It falls without too much resistance. Meanwhile I complete researching Economics and get the free GM who I send on a trade mission to Hammy’s lands. We research Optics and then PP next. A couple of turns into the war, Peter DoW’s me, I bring my Pal Freddy in to take care of Peter whilst I finish off Pacal.



In the meanwhile,



We get the Taj and start of a Golden Age. An AP vote pops up to stop the war on Peter, It’s a distraction I don’t need right now so, I vote yes to stop the war and we make peace with Peter. A GG is born and attached to a chariot to form a Mash unit. Another GS is also born and once more settled in the capital. We take Pacal’s capital and that’s enough to get him to capitulate.



Peace reigns over our lands albeit temporarily and we take the time to build up our military further, and consolidate. We trade Lib to Freddy for PP + Theology + World map + some gold. We begin researching Scientific and then Communism. I decide that Peter is the next target since he has already shown some hostility towards us.

Oh, in the meanwhile we meet the remaining two AI’s …



Boudica & Sury, how very wonderful! And it seems Sury’s had a tough time of it …
Meanwhile another GS is born in our great empire and sent to Istanbul to serve their for the rest of his life. It is once again time for war and we DoW Peter and on the same turn,



Take the first of many cities and raze it to the ground, Soon a 2nd Russian city is burned to the ground …



Meanwhile we get to Communism and pick up the free Great Spy whom I send on infiltration mission to Hammy’s lands. I revolt to State Property and begin researching Biology. Another GG is born and settled in our military pump, and shortly thereafter a GS is born and sent to Istanbul.
Whilst our troops were busy with the invasion of Russia …



That Peter’s a tricky bugger he’s snuck around behind us and hit our vassal Pacal, he should be hitting the former Mayan capital (now under Ottoman control of course) the next turn, emergency measures are taken as we scramble together some defenders and redeploy some troops who were headed elsewhere.



Meanwhile our main army is relentless as we take and raze the Russian capital of Moscow. Behind the front lines, the Russians take Mutal from us after a bloody battle but cant hold on to it, we take it back and raze it as our defenders are stretched thin. (Pacal is not too pleased.)



We finish researching Biology and begin on RP next. We take the city of Lakmaha from the Russians and gift it to Pacal, and also raze another Russian city …



That’s finally enough to Push peter over the edge and he capitulates. Another GS is born and settled in Istanbul. So once again it’s a another period of Peace in the Ottoman empire though not for long and we use it to focus a little more on the micro and the builds going on each of the cities. Meanwhile Sury has broken free from Boudicca on the other continent. That’s good news. We finish RP and begin researching Physics, I gift RP to Pacal and get him to start researching Rifling.

30 years of peace go by and we are ready for War once again, this time the target – Hammy.



We take two cities in two turns and Hammy caps without too much resistance. We complete researching Physics and get the free GS and settle him in Istanbul. We also happen to generate another GS who is settled as well. We begin researching Electricity next.
A few years of peace pass by as our troops prepare for the final frontier … Germany, we also happen to generate another GS and settle him in the capital. We DoW on Freddy …



We take two cities, but that’s not enough to make him cap, the next turn he throws all he’s got in an unsuccessful attempt to take back his cities, and that’s enough to take the fight out of him, and get him to Cap. I gift Freddy’s cities back to him and trade Communism for Democracy with him. I also make the following trade with Pacal,



We complete Electricity and research Radio & Mass Media next and begin building the UN. The tech path is inconsequential now as we are on the home straight. We begin researching medicine next. We get bored waiting so I decide to DoW Sury in case I need more votes .



We take a couple of cities and Sury caps. Meanwhile …



The UN is completed. The vote comes up shortly …



And we have a nice diplomatic win just like the Peacenik that I am

Wow! Don't waste any time do you!

Very, very well played. I've learned a huge amount about how to play at emperor from following so thank you. I think the most important lesson was just how important it was to spam those cannons & jans to vassalise the continent...was the plan to get that done before everyone got to rifling? BTW, that leads me to my one question - and a humble request for HUI 4.

When you were spamming military to the neighbours, roughly how many or what proportion of your cities were building military? Was it, for example, all of them, more than 1/2 or were you relying more on the HE to spam units? For that reason, when you next go into full war production mode in HUI 4 (and prove just how much of a peacenik you really are ), could you please add one screenie of the domestic advisor that shows just how many of your cities are producing military versus infrastructure at that time. After all, I think that not only would that help me, but judging by the number of posts on the forums from gamers asking how civvers manage to get a huge SoD together so fast, it would also help many others too...and whilst many previous games have posted a domestic advisor at some point, they seem to have done it largely at the end of a round after war has finished and infrastructure builds dominate again. And once again, congratulations on a great win!

learner gamer said:

I think the most important lesson was just how important it was to spam those cannons & jans to vassalise the continent...was the plan to get that done before everyone got to rifling?

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Yes, ideally get it done before Rifling, but if they get to rifling not the end of the world if you have a large enough stack and specially enough Cannons, you can still get through them before they mass produce Rifles.

learner gamer said:

When you were spamming military to the neighbours, roughly how many or what proportion of your cities were building military? Was it, for example, all of them, more than 1/2 or were you relying more on the HE to spam units?

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Ok, here's how i went about it, my major production cities were Istanbul (+50% prod from Buero), Edirne (Early military pump with settled GG's) & Samsun (HE city), each of these cities were capable nof spitting out a unit every 2.5 turns on average. At the height of the military build up i also used Diyarbakir & Gaziantep, these cities would take 4 turns to produce a unit on average. SO basically my nothern brown cities were doing the military production and the southern green cities were focussing on research.

I usually dont get my commerce / research cities involved in military build up since they are not equipped for it and they cant really make a meaningful contribution, so i would rather allow them to focus on their specialised task.

learner gamer said:

For that reason, when you next go into full war production mode in HUI 4 (and prove just how much of a peacenik you really are ), could you please add one screenie of the domestic advisor that shows just how many of your cities are producing military versus infrastructure at that time.

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Will definitely keep this in mind, what makes you so sure i will be going to war in HUI 4???

Picture of your capital with all the settled GS?

Lafortezza said:

Picture of your capital with all the settled GS?

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Here you go,



you cant see all of them on the screen shot though, have a look at the research generated from specialists, which amounts 147 BPT, i am running two scientists who account for 12 of that so that leaves 135 BPT from the settled GS's. Since each of them produce 9 BPT, we can then work out that theres 15 of them .