William of Orange and the Pursuit of Culture Victory

Introduction:

I've won all victory conditions in Civ IV except for the Cultural Victory, I just don't know how to do it . So for this game I hope to get the help and input from the forum to get my first Cultural Victory. War is always an option, but should remain optional and limited.

Civilization and Leader:



I'm playing this game as William of Orange of The Netherlands who has the Creative and Financial Traits, starting techs are Fishing and Agriculture.

Settings & Mod:

I'm running the BUFFY-3.19.003 Mod and choose a Custom Game, apart from Lock Modified Assets all other options are ticked off. The difficulty level is Prince and there are 6 competing civilizations.

Map: Continents
Size: Standard
Climate: Temperate
Sealevel: Medium
Era: Ancient
Speed: Epic
World Wrap: Cylindrical
Resources: Standard

All Victory Conditions are ENABLED for this game. I also have to admit that I didn't play Civ IV for a while and although I've won at Prince Level before lately I'm struggling at this level, but I want to give myself a little challenge for this game as well.

The Starting Position:



So we've got Corn, Cow and Crab, I'm thinking about moving the settler to where the warrior is, but that'll make me loose one turn. It'll give me a nice coastal city though...

So the first important decisions for William:

Founding the 1st city:
Settle in place
Settle on the "Warrior"-site
Settle somewhere else? (use Warrior to scout east)

Build queue:
And what to build first? I'm thinking Worker (for the Corn), but I usually don't start building those until my city has grown to size 3.

Research:
What techs should we be pursueing first? My guess would be to go for an early religion.

Please help William with these tough but important decisions!

This is what I would do if I were in your positsion:

1) Scout the east with warrior and if something unbeliveably wonderful won't be found settle in place 4000BC because:
a. Map generator makes really good capital city sites and you really can't go wrong with these
b. Floodplains seem to be present, and I have an almost irrational love for floodplains... (you are financial)
c. Yes coast is nice and you have fishing boats right in the start but.....idk, just as I said you can't make a mistake with settling on current site either (If u do move however ur settler to coast I would build Fishing Boats as the very first thing)

2) Build order: Start warrior, wait until capital grows to 2 and switch to worker. Then whatever u need next, I think switching building to settler when u hit 3 pop is feasible.

3) I belive that although u don't have mysticism u can get early religion if u work those floodplains for extra commerce... not sure though, would'nt try it on monarch, feels too risky

¤) If u can steal a worker I highly recomend doing so, atleast in vanilla it is so effective at crippling the AI that I would call it an exploit.

About me: usually 18 civ, marathon, huge, vanilla, monarch and my english is sloppy...

Warrior site is horrible IMO since it only has a single hill as far as I can see. Especially since Culture relies on getting those key wonders and then building a ton of religious buildings, prod is very very good. In place looks good.

I'd forget about the two first religions if I were you, if you don't have any commerce resources (gem, gold most notably). The mid-range religions are quite easy to get without spoiling your early game (something like, Oracle->CoL, use the Prophet on bulbing Theology and get a GS as your 2nd GP and bulb Philo). A shot at Mono after the basics of AH/Mining/BW/Pottery can be possible as well.

I'd go Worker first if you start teching AH/Mining, probably a warrior if you decide to pursue the earliest religions.

Silu said:

Warrior site is horrible IMO since it only has a single hill as far as I can see. Especially since Culture relies on getting those key wonders and then building a ton of religious buildings, prod is very very good. In place looks good.

I'd forget about the two first religions if I were you, if you don't have any commerce resources (gem, gold most notably). The mid-range religions are quite easy to get without spoiling your early game (something like, Oracle->CoL, use the Prophet on bulbing Theology and get a GS as your 2nd GP and bulb Philo). A shot at Mono after the basics of AH/Mining/BW/Pottery can be possible as well.

I'd go Worker first if you start teching AH/Mining, probably a warrior if you decide to pursue the earliest religions.

Click to expand...

Whatever he will be doing I don't see way to spoil he's early game as prince level is quite forgiving for mistakes. Maybe I should have also mentioned that whenever I have plans for cultural victory I can't usually achive it because all other victories come first like axerush and other fun stuff . So im not very good in terms of thinking culturally.

^ I don't usually pay that much heed to the difficulty level when people ask for advice, pretty much the same principles apply to all levels. Even if you can get away with something on lower levels that doesn't mean it's a good idea

Anyway it's a good idea to think about procuring religions yourself, since it's Continents getting AI religion spread is a total crapshoot. But as I said going for early religions without Mysticism is usually much worse than getting the basics in order and then shooting for Mono/CoL/Theo/Philo. I usually keep 3 as the minimum for going "normal" (with slider, not relying on corps or modern wonders) culture, 2 with Sistine. Additional ones help a ton though.

Good luck for Willem in his efforts

Tulx said:

This is what I would do if I were in your positsion:

1) Scout the east with warrior and if something unbeliveably wonderful won't be found settle in place 4000BC because:
a. Map generator makes really good capital city sites and you really can't go wrong with these
b. Floodplains seem to be present, and I have an almost irrational love for floodplains... (you are financial)
c. Yes coast is nice and you have fishing boats right in the start but.....idk, just as I said you can't make a mistake with settling on current site either (If u do move however ur settler to coast I would build Fishing Boats as the very first thing)

2) Build order: Start warrior, wait until capital grows to 2 and switch to worker. Then whatever u need next, I think switching building to settler when u hit 3 pop is feasible.

3) I belive that although u don't have mysticism u can get early religion if u work those floodplains for extra commerce... not sure though, would'nt try it on monarch, feels too risky

¤) If u can steal a worker I highly recomend doing so, atleast in vanilla it is so effective at crippling the AI that I would call it an exploit.

About me: usually 18 civ, marathon, huge, vanilla, monarch and my english is sloppy...

Click to expand...

1, i agree, if there is marble or stone right 2 the east, then move, if not stay put
2, a study showed that for 65% of the starting situations, building a worker first is the best idea, for 15% building a workboat first (but in this case that is not possible) and the rest building a warrior first. What is defined as the best idea is the fastest way to get the city 2 a population of 5
3) on noble or lower, u can get a religion first without mysticism, but otherwise not possible

ilduce349 said:

2, a study showed that for 65% of the starting situations, building a worker first is the best idea, for 15% building a workboat first (but in this case that is not possible) and the rest building a warrior first. What is defined as the best idea is the fastest way to get the city 2 a population of 5
3) on noble or lower, u can get a religion first without mysticism, but otherwise not possible

Click to expand...

Even if my advice is of questionable value at least I have managed to start an conversation, at least that is worth something, I hope

When makeing all those mistakes I haven't lost a game on monarch except my very first try, but I kinda struggle in the early game so no wonder what I lack in my skills...

Thanks for the comments and advice, William is going to think one more night about all this... expect an update somewhere within the next 24 hours or so

Religions will definately be a priority, but I think I'll go for the later ones and maybe try for Judaism.

I agreed with point 1 and 3, just for point 2 was questionable, u also mentioned u struggle at the beginning, try building a worker first, it might help.

4000 BC: William of Orange, leader of a small nomadic tribe, calls in his trusty advisors "Tulx", "Silu" and "Ilduce".

William: "Ok, listen folks. We've learned the secret of Agriculture and can now harvest the lands, there's a nice corn field nearby and I think it's time to end our nomadic life style and settle down. We also found some strange animals grazing the lands, maybe we can find out some way to utilise them for our people".

Tulx: "Hold on a sec here William, with all due respect but I think we should explore the area to our east a little to see if something valuable is over there".

Silu: "I agree, we also found a coast to the south with some nice crabs our fisherman could harvest, however the land down there doesn't seem to be very productive. Unless we find something valuable in the east I suggest we settle right here".

Ilduce: "Absolutely, we must at least see what's out there in the east, otherwise let's stay put. Recent studies showed it's usually best to settle right here..."

Tulx: "WTF?"

Silu: "....??"

William: "Ok ok, enough you guys. Let's scout east then".

<<< Later that day the scout returns with information >>>

Scout: "Sire, I've scouted the east but besides some more flood plains I didn't find anything valuable over there."

William: "Thank you, now begone and pay a visit to that small tribal village we spotted. Maybe the locals there can help us out."

Scout: "Aye!"

And so it happened that Amsterdam was founded in 4000 BC:



The same night William ordered his advisors inside his improvised "Palace", although at the moment it was nothing more than a simple shack...

William: "Gentleman, we have decisions to make! Although the founding of Amsterdam is certainly a milestone for our people we need to look forward.
We can either train a Warrior to defend our people from a rival tribe, or we train a workforce to improve our lands".

Tulx: "We should build a Warrior! Let's grow a little before we waste much needed food to train workers".

Ilduce: "But Sire, recent studies have shown that in 65% of the cases...."

Silu: "Oh shut up you! However, my dear friend Ilduce has a point here Sire. We must build a worker first! Those corn fields out there must be made available for our people as soon as possible. Although the initial food investment will hurt us in the short term, it will pay itself back quickly once the corn field is available".

William: "Alright, alright... let's train that worker so we'll have popcorn soon! Our children will be delighted".

Ilduce: "Ahum, Sire..."

William: "Yes Ilduce...speak!"

Ilduce: "What are we going to research? Recent studies have shown that we can research valuable techs. As we're training a worker, I suggest we discover new techs that will allow our Worker to make more improvements".

Silu: "Yes, we should find a way to use those cows and maybe those hills nearby can improve our productivity once used properly. I believe I heard our researchers talk of Animal Husbandry and Mining. Other useful technologies are Bronze Working and Pottery so we can cut down the woods and build cottages".

William: "Ok, thank you all for your valuable input. Let's start training that worker and put our researchers on Animal Husbandry".

Amsterdam was working the cows tile, I checked if working the corn tile instead would reduce the turns to build the worker, but that was not the case so I just kept it as it.

The Warrior continued to Scout the immediate area, first I moved a little north, then to the East and South. I want to scout my immediate surroundings so I can already plan a good location for the 2nd city.

The hut popped 84 Gold which is always nice. In turn 7 I met with Saladin of the Arabs. He's Protective and Spiritual and starts with Mysticism and The Wheel. My guess (and hope) is that he will find one of the starting religions.



In turn 10 I got the message that Buddhism was founded in a distant land. Unfortunately this wasn't the Arabs as I didn't see any religion change from him. A bit later my Warrior popped another hut and got a map of the surroundings. Usually I find this the most useless gift, but it revealed Saladins borders to me which is useful intel.

He has a coastal town just northeast of Amsterdam. Although I couldn't see his city, by it's borders I can pinpoint it's location quite easily. I'll post a map at the bottom of this page which I took at the end of this turnset.

My Warrior earned a promotion by fighting off some barb animals, but I decided not to use the promotion yet and save it for later use.

In 3600 BC (turn 16) our scientists discoverd Animal Husbandry, I queued up The Wheel and Pottery next. Amsterdam was still training the Worker. The discovery of Animal Husbandry also uncovered the location of Horses within Amsterdam's Fat Cross! (directly south of the corn - see also the map below)

After I had ended this turn a message popped up saying that Hinduism was founded in a distant land.

At the end of my next turn the following message arrived:
State Religion Change: Saladin (Arabia) from 'no State Religion' to 'Hinduism'

That's wonderful news! Saladin did all the work for me, I think this also means that Saladin won't be around for very long in this game as I might want to conquer him to get the holy city... but let's see, maybe we become best buddies.

Amsterdam finished the first Worker in 3425 BC (turn 23) and started building a Warrior next. I moved the Worker to the corn field. In the city screen I changed from working the cow to working the Corn instead. Although this will slow down my Warrior build this will allow Amsterdam to grow to size 2 much sooner.

Here's the map as of 3425 BC, I've marked Saladin's city with the wonderful dot-mapping utility that comes with BUFFY.



Ok, so the first turns have been played. New challenges await William and the following questions arise my mind:

1) Is it smart to work the Corn field to grow Amsterdam quicker or is it too risky to delay the production of the Warrior?

2) 2nd city site? Any suggestions?

3) Bloody Arabs... befriend them or kill'em?

4) Next tech prio's: After The Wheel and Pottery I'll go for Bronze Working, but then what? Should I try and get Monotheism if it's still not discovered by then or follow another route? Maybe Horse Riding and go after Saladin early.

5) After the Warrior, I'll build another Warrior followed by Settler and then Worker. Or?

Well that's it for now, but let me know what you think. William can use every input available to him....

You have horse. Research wheel and CHARIOT RUSH!!! Chariots are cheap and fast. And work that corn. City growth is important right now.

k
Priorities:
U need 2 find a gold, stone and marble for wonder whoring:
If u find 2 of the priority resources in the same city that should be one
Saladin's city has a holy city, which means its probably going 2 do ok culturally and should be used, send ur scout to find out if there r any resources currently in his land, it would be useful to find out his food production and gold.
ur questions
1. let it grow, the higher the population the better the city is, because after massive population growth the city generally has increases of gold and production follow.
2. right 2 the left of the hill bordering the pig, it is the best city spot i can see there besides ur start
3. depends on how valuable the city of Mecca is, if it has high production and food, then defiantly, if it is a crap city, then no, the frustrating/great thing about Salidin is his favorite unit is the Hindu missionary, and he builds 3 of them at a time.
4. The techs u r researching seem to follow "The Culture Pattern" (at the beginning I decide based on my starting situation wether 2 go for a Military victory (Domination, Conquest or Time) or a Peaceful victory (cultural, Diplomatic or Space race) in the peaceful one i research techs in this order (please note i normally play as Stalin so my starting techs r Hunting and Mining)
Agriculture or Fishing
Pottery
Animal husbandry
Bronze working
Mysticism
Polytheism or Meditation
Priesthood
so based on ur current situation i would say research mysticism almost all starting wonders require a tech that requires Myst so definatly research mysticism or wheel (if u dont have it)
5. wait till the population of ur city hits 3 then build a settler (warriors until that), after that it depends on the situation

also i like how u over quoted me, i said it once, u said it 3 times,
u can keep on using it because i found it halarious

ilduce349 said:

also i like how u over quoted me, i said it once, u said it 3 times,
u can keep on using it because i found it halarious

Click to expand...

yeah sorry about that, it was of course meant to be a joke. Keep the advice going, I'll need it...

also u have inspired me to attempt and cultural victory, my game is on going, and I have 2 cities that are considered legendary (Moscow and Kyoto), however my next city is less the 1/5 of the way there so it could take a while, I have Time victory is ticked off so i just have to hope no one else attempts a different victory, I am playing on Noble, and had gold, stone, iron, horse and flood plains in my capital so have had it slightly easier then you, I invaded Kyoto from the japs early on, and pumped 2 great artists in it (keep em coming i have had 4 so far) early on to prevent it from being culturally invaded by the Americans, and then it completed the great lighthouse and i decided that it had the potential 2 be my second city. I have to say the 2 hardest victories are the Cultural and the Domination, domination because of the amount of cities needed, and Cultural because i find it hard to get 3 cities over 50,000 culture (in 4 games i have had Moscow hit 200 000 and once hit a million but that was in a Warlord Marathon game so i don't think that counts).
But yeah, I recently won a domination victory, so my total wins 2 date are:
2 space race
4 diplomatic (only once with the apostlice palace, the rest with the UN)
3 conquests
1 time (very disappointed, no movie and was really sudden, i have had the time victory ticked off since then)
1 domination
and am still waiting for that cultural.

Despite this I hope to help as i no the few errors I do 2 prevent this victory:
1. 2/3 of the world wonders get built in my capitol, it gets to legendary status by 1100 ad
2. I use bureaucracy which in no way benefits cultural victory as it doesn't affect anything but my capitol
3. I prefer massing troops over massing wonders (except my capitol)
4. I get bored to easily, i have been playing civ 4 since June 2006, and have played an average of around 10 hours a week, and my civ record is 11 victories 2 losses (when my vassal won a diplomatic (wtf) and when I tried a deity conquest game, I successfully took down 3 civilizations but i couldn't break the Greek phalanxes and they invaded my empire), the point is I have over 100 saves on games I have not complete, and in one night I played civilization for 14 hours straight, in that time I won a Diplomatic victory, and started 5 other games, I haven't finished any of those 5. please note I am not addicted

Unfortunately I have no stats and little experience in culture victories so wont be much more use but will follow along and offer some advice when I can.

I'm trying to use some of the strategies from Jesusin's guide as well, here's a link

I've been trying some shadow games with similar settings but am getting whooped by barb axes or neighbour AI's who declare on me. It sounds easy in the guide, but it's definately not. I seem to be progressing/expanding too slowly, maybe I need to whip more....

One particularly night in the Kingdom, a citizen with the odd name of mechaerik comes rushing into Williams throne room... his eyes are red, foam on the corners of his mouth... he almost looks like the local madman!

Mechaerik: "CHARIOTS! CHARIOTS! MUST BUILD CHARIOTS!"

William: "Did you visit that coffee shop again mechaerik? What are you talking about man? We have no such things!"

Mechaerik being calmed down by William's guard explains the situation: "I believe that when we discover the secret of The Wheel we'll be able to use those horses on the fields outside Amsterdam and build a very fast Military unit! Faster than anything out there! We can conquer the world William! Muhahahaha.... hahaha.... HAHAHAHHAAAA....."

William: "Hmm...conquer the World you say, eh?"

Mechaerik: "YES! Muhahaha"

Ilduce who just entered the room exclaims: "But William, recent studies have shown that...."

Mechaerik: "CONQUER!!! MUHHAHAHAHHAA... HORSES!!! CHARIOTS!! MUHAHAHA...."

William: "I guess that's it then... Chariots it is!"

Ilduce: "We're doomed....."

Ok, so Chariot rush is going to be the name of the game for this set of turns. I know, i know...I said war was going to be optional and limited, however... I was presented with a unique opportunity here. Saladin had one of the early religions and I had horses!

I've sent my Warrior up north and explored the cultural borders of Arab-land. When done I've parked the Warrior on a forested hill just outside the south west border of Mecca's border and waited.... meanwhile my worker was finishing improving the Corn tile and then build a pasture on the Horses. Last but not least I connected the Horses and Corn to Amsterdam with a road (The Wheel was finished by then).

I immediately switched to building Chariots, while my Warrior was finally rewarded by playing the waiting game... A Worker popped up from the fog and that was my trigger to declare on Saladin!

I declared in 2850 BC and captured Saladin's Worker. While moving the Worker to Amsterdam I explored the previously fogged area around Mecca and saw that Mecca was currently defended by two Warriors. Piece of cake....

I fortified the Warrior on a forested Hill, looking out on Mecca while I saw Saladin's initial explorer and promoted (+10% strenght) Warrior moving close to Amsterdam... Which by itself was defended by a single unpromoted Warrior.

Lucky my first Chariot was about to be finished and it killed Saladin's Warrior easily around 2600 BC. Earning himself a promotion! Amsterdam has reached it's happiness max of size 5 and I swapped from focus on food to focus on Hammers. My 2nd Chariot was finishing soon and I started building a 3rd one just in case.

My Chariots joined the Warrior (whom I gave the City Attack promotion) and moved in on Mecca! Mecca was now being defended by 1 Warrior only as Saladin wisely decided it was a smart move to try and capture Amsterdam with a single Archer and Warrior unit... so he had left the city of Mecca defended by his 1 remaining Warrior!

Great news...I've sent in my Warrior first on a suicide mission, he managed to do some damage and then my first Chariot went in for the kill, but with a 92.5% chance to win he managed to get himself killed.... Lucky I had that spare Chariot who took Mecca in 2425 BC and eliminating the Arab civilization as a result.

I have now 2 Workers, 2 Chariots, 2 Warriors and currently building a Settler in Amsterdam. Mecca will come out of revolt in about 3 turns and Bronze Working will be discovered next turn.

All in all a good set of turns and I have a holy city now! Mecca has access to fresh water, cows and clams within the Fat Cross. I haven't met any other civs yet and am wondering if I'm the only one left on this continent/island.... One of my Warriors in Exploring north of Amsterdam.

Here's the map in 2425 BC:



Bad news: No Stone... No Marble! Next turn I'll see if I have at least Copper!

Ok... so far so good. Although it's a real bummer there's no marble or stone nearby I guess I can forget about all of the early wonders. So no pyramids or oracle for me.

Mecca, by the way, doesn't have any buildings nor have there been any tile improvements apart from some roads... something I forgot to mention in my previous post.

What went right and what went wrong?

Right:
- I think it was the right choice to attack Saladin, yes I lost some turns building the Chariots, but... I gained a city and got rid of a rival. Had I not attacked Saladin I probably would have build my first settler and also gained a 2nd city, but Saladin would still have been alive.

Wrong:
- I actually cottaged and roaded a floodplain outside of Amsterdam's Fat Cross... D'OH!

Decisions and challenges ahead:

With Bronze Working comes Slavery, as mentioned in one of my previous posts Amsterdam currently has reached it's maximum pop/happiness limit. So I'll guess I'll have to start whipping and chopping trees to rush build settlers/workers/warriors.

I need help with that... I always seem to mess up that part by either whipping too much or not whipping enough. Any guidelines on that? Especially how to deal with happyness limits. As you can see on the map there are no happyness resources around... (apart from the whale).

Suggested city locations, what are the sweet spots? I'll need a GPFarm as well as good cottage-spam locations. Amsterdam and Mecca will probably become 2 of my legendary cities, both will be cottaged.

It looks like I have a continent/island to myself.... is that a good or bad thing? At least I'll have plenty of space to expand.... but no contact means no tech trading and thus slower teching. And slower spread of religions which are important for Culture games.

What to build in Mecca? I currently queued a Worker, but maybe a workboat is a better choice here to get the clams hooked up early.

William NEEDS YOU! Yes... you!