William of Orange and the Pursuit of Culture Victory

[ilduce349]

k, seems my advice might be needed here,
1. cottage on flood plains=good
far on flood plains = OK
workshop on floodplains = bad
with a farm u will get +1 food, so what? it already has 3 food and therefore a surplus and a farm isn't necessary, with a cottage u will end up getting 3 food 6 gold, which later on will lead to many culture points.
2. oracle = build
it is the most important preaesthetics wonder and will give u a free tech, it normally takes me 10 turns 2 build and saves me the 31 turns to research metal casting, it also gives 8 culture per turn now that you have a second city wonders are easier to build,
3. based on the circumstances u were in taking mecca was a good idea, building 3 chariots is less production then a settler, based on studies it has been proven that 53% (production of 3 chariots/production of settler) attacking a holy city early on is a good thing
4. I just finished my attempt of a culture victory, and sadly Churchill won a space race 37 turns (this was a marathon game so more like 13 turns) before st petes would become legendary, Moscow was at 220000 and Kyoto was at 160000, but st petes fell just short
5. as I said earlier on in 15% of situations (the odds that u will be a coastal city) building a work boat first is the best move, and in this case it is, if u have a water resource build work boats.
6. if u have a continent to ur self it means just one simple thing, settler whore (every other thing build in a city with more then 3 pop should be a settler)
7. congrats on beating the Arabs
8. hope u can continue on this relatively successful rate

 

[topsecret]

Go to writing for early libraries then get Drama for Cash to Culture

 

[Dimy]

When the news of Saladin's defeat reached William he immediately organised festivities to celebrate this great victory for the Dutch people!

But the same night William was already planning his next moves and after Ilduce suggested to William that recent studies had shown that building The Oracle would give the Dutch people a free technology William set out a plan. After finishing Bronze Working, the researchers were set to discover Priesthood (and all techs required before Priesthood). Workers could be used to chop the woods outside Amsterdam to speed up the construction if necessary!

Meanwhile the Chariot in Mecca was sent to discover the fog east of Mecca to see if there's anything there:



Excellent! Some Stone! And a cow and fish, although the latter is probably too far from Mecca. It was decided that Mecca would continue training the Worker followed by a Workboat. That means Mecca will remain size 1 for now, but that's ok...it will keep city maintenance costs down too.

The Warrior exploring North of Amsterdam also made an interesting discovery:



We're not on an Island, but on a peninsula that's cut off from the rest of the continent by a Mountain! There could be some other civilizations out there!

...which was shortly after confirmed when a Worker Boat of the American Empire made contact! At least tech trading will be possible without the need of Astrology.

A 3rd city was found slightly to the east of Amsterdam, normally the 2nd city would be Rotterdam, but in fact this was named Utrecht. I guess because of the capture of Mecca, city naming skipped one.

Utrecht has three floodplains, wheat and pigs in the BFC. This city will become my GPFarm and will focus on food production.

While waiting for Priesthood, William decided to build a few Warriors who will be set to guard strategic locations in the fog outside dutch borders, this to minimise the threat of Barbarians!

By the way... no Copper was revealed when Bronze Working was discovered. Let's hope for some Iron later on.

As soon as Priesthood was discovered Amsterdam started building The Oracle which would take 17 turns to complete. A Worker was sent to chop a forest to speed this up a bit and finally... in 1525 BC:



William decided to take Code of Laws as a free tech from The Oracle for the following reasons:



- A 2nd religion, confucianism, would be found. And of course a 2nd Holy City!
- Courthouses to reduce maintenance
- This would allow the discovery of Civil Service!

Dutch scientists were currently researching Alphabet, this would open up tech trading with the Americans. The stone still hasn't been hooked up as we lack Masonry, but I think I need to prioritise here.

I've started building a Library in Amsterdam so I can run Scientist specialists soon. Utrecht became the Holy City of Confucianism and will finish building it's first Worker the next turn. I'll probably build a Library there next.

Here's the map as of 1525 BC:

 

[Dimy]

Out of Scope:
I just attached the 4000 BC save file to the first post in this thread for those of you interested to play this map and setting. So feel free to download this and play along, but I'd appreciate not to give me any spoilers . The save required BUFFY-3.19.003 and BtS patched to the latest version.

Ok, so we're almost 100 turns into the game. I'm quite satisfied to be honest! We've got three cities, of which two are holy cities! We got rid of an AI rival, we've build The Oracle and got Code of Laws and we're on a peninsula so we've got plenty of land to expand... I've put Warriors on fog busting duty so I don't think I'll have trouble with Barb axes in this game...especially since I don't have Copper!

What went wrong this turnset:
I actually build a cottage on one the floodplains near Utrecht where I wanted to build a farm... so I had to redo it and lost some turns there.

What went good:
The Oracle was build!

Time to plan ahead... what to do next?

Tech wise I'm deciding between two routes after Alphabet, either go for Civil Service, but it's an expensive tech and will take a long time. Or go for Drama so I can start building those Theatre's and run Artist specialists for my Great Artists.

I'll also have to lower the tech rate very soon due to Economy reasons, but Utrecht should grow fast and will run Scientist Specialist, the Great Scientist will be used to build an Academy. Amsterdam could either get a Great Prophet or Great Scientist... Great Prophet has an obvious use here to build a shrine, if Great Scientist it will build a 2nd Academy in another city.

As for the next city... I don't know... I have a lot of bad terrain like deserts... tundra's and such. But also a few good spots. Maybe I should also consider trying to build a city north of that Mountain that blocks the rest of the continent...but that would require a ship of some sort that can carry a settler (can a galley do this? not sure, I don't have a lot of experience having to use ships in the early game ).

 

[topsecret]

Go for Literature and Wonders then Music for the FREE Great Artist

 

[topsecret]

that would require a ship of some sort that can carry a settler (can a galley do this? not sure, I don't have a lot of experience having to use ships in the early game ).

Galleys carry all land units!

 

[ilduce349]

k, i am going to say this one last time, cottages are better then farms when using flood plains
also it is a disappointment that the holy city of confucism wasn't in ur capitol
ur next city need to be east of mecca, make it so it can get the stone and both fish

 

[Dimy]

Hmm I was hoping for some more replies and input from different people, but let's see. So far I'm happy with my start.

@topsecret: Yeah, that free artist from Music is definitely one my goals. I'll see if I beeline to that now or want to prioritise a few other techs first.

@ilduce: Normally I would always cottage floodplains, especially when financial, but this game I want to play a little different. Utrecht will become a GP-farm, I'll put the focus in that city on food production.
As for a city east of Mecca.... I don't think it's one of the most disirabe locations, yes it would have the fish, but it would also overlap tiles with Mecca (soon to be known as Rotterdam). It's also further away from my Capital and will have to pay more maintenance. So I'm thinking about settling my area surrounding Amsterdam/Utrecht to start with. I'll try and make a dotmap and edit this post when it's done

EDIT:

Ok here's the dotmap


I've made a few changes after this shot was taken though:
Mecca has been renamed Rotterdam and temporarily changed production from Workboat to Courthouse. Why? Because Rotterdam will grow to size 2 in only 3 turns, so as soon as it grown I will change production back to Workboat, Workboat and then the Courthouse.
I changed production in Amsterdam from Library to Settler which will be due in 10 turns. I need to expand first, then I'll finish the Library, or maybe a Temple first to increase the Happiness.

As for the dotmap, I've marked 8 possible city sites for my next city. And not one of them is my absolute favourite. The least desirable location right now will be the spot southwest of Amsterdam, but I'll want it later to grab the Whales. The two spots in the south aren't great either but will grab crabs (no pun intended) and deer and the eastern one of these two will have a lot of commerce (but need lighthouse for more food). So I think the southern three spots are not to be prioritised for now.
Then the two locations directly north of Amsterdam and Utrecht... both are on desert tiles, no good... but there's rice and clams and coast tiles so not completely bad.

So that leaves the three remaining sites, east of Rotterdam a.ka. site 1, east of Utrecht (and south of Rotterdam) a.k.a. site 2 and the site on the far northwest a.k.a. site 3. All three are good:

Site 1: 2 fish, pork and stone in the city radius and coast tiles. But...it shares tiles with Rotterdam.
Site 2: Sheep, Wheat and lake within radius... but can't build lighthouse to maximise on those coast tiles.
Site 3: Fish, Rice and nice grasslands when those Jungles are chopped in City Radius... Plus coast tiles. But.... need Iron working to clear Jungle and will take time to clear.

So there you go... decisions decisions. Please help William!

Edit #2: Hmm...maybe I should move Site 2 one east and on the coast. I would lose the Wheat in the BFC, but can build the lighthouse there.

 

[ilduce349]

I would say site 1, u share 2 tiles with rotterdam but y get the valuable stone, which according to recent statistics doubles the speed of 40% of the wonders. it is also a valuable coastal city

 

[Dimy]

I would say site 1, u share 2 tiles with rotterdam but y get the valuable stone, which according to recent statistics doubles the speed of 40% of the wonders. it is also a valuable coastal city

Ah, but strategic resources don't need to be in the BFC to be useable. It just needs to be within cultural borders which it already is. I just need to build a quarry there to hook up the stone, but to do that I need Masonry first which I hope to trade with the Americans once my Alphabet comes in.

I think I'll put my next city 1E of site 2, I just noticed that although it will loose the Wheat in favour of being near the coast it will gain a Clam resource... one that's not in the BFC of Rotterdam, so perfect. The Wheat will get within my cultural borders soon enough, although I won't be able to work the tile I can use the excess of Wheat to trade with other civs.

I think I'll play my next couple of turns tonight and put a city there.

 

[Dimy]

Ok, so the main goal here is to find a 4th city. Amsterdam changed production to a settler.

William discussed a couple of sites for possible settlement with Ilduce, but although Ilduce' recently studies have shown that Stone is a very powerful resource indeed, William, for now, was happy enough to have the Stone resource within the Dutch cultural borders. All the dutch people needed now was the secret of Masonry so that the Stone resource could be hooked up with a Quarry.

As a King, William took the liberty to overrule Ilduce' advice and settle the spot directly to the east of Utrecht at the coast. The initial plan to settle the spot 1 tile to the west of the coast and directly north of the lake was dismissed as being inferior. Yes, the Wheat would fall just out of range to be worked on, but the benefit of the coastal location was the possibility to build a lighthouse and make most use out of those coast tiles. Also instead of Wheat, a Clams tile would fall within the range of the new city so a win-win situation.

While Amsterdam was building the settler, Rotterdam (previously known as Mecca) started the production of a Courthouse. The contruction of the Courthouse would be temporarily suspended to build a Workboat when the city reached size 2 and again when the city reached size 3. Some forest chops will be used to speed up construction there as well.

The new worker build in Utrecht started to make a road towards Rotterdam to connect Rotterdam with Amsterdam and Utrecht. The Confucianist missionary was used to spread the religion to Amsterdam, this will allow the construction of a Temple and Monastary to boost happiness and research.

In 1425 BC we received the message that Judaism was founded in a distant land! Incredible... we already found Confucianism before the final of the three early religions was founded!

Amsterdam started the construction of a Temple as soon as the settler finished. The temple will be due in 9 turns after which I'm really going to finish that Library (and grow the city to size 6 as the Temple adds 1 more happiness).

1175 BC - The Hague is founded:



Also note the Worker in the top left who's building the road from Amsterdam-Utrecht

The Hague's 1st build will be a worker, I'll let Rotterdam construct a Workboat to connect the Clams for The Hague at the next opportunity.

In 1150 BC Alphabet has been discovered by Dutch scientists! Before I could make a call to Roosenvelt he called me (I guess the news of Alphabet travels fast....). Roosenvelt asks us for help by giving him Priesthood. William tells him that nothing comes for free and kindly rejects the demand.

When asking Roosenvelt to trade techs instead he's refusing to trade any of his techs with us! Including the much needed Masonry (to hook up the Stone) and Sailing (to build Lighthouses in Rotterdam and The Hague).



Needless to say this is a bit of a bummer, now we have to research these techs ourselves! So first thing we do is queing up Masonry and Sailing. We're forced to run 60% science at the moment to make a profit of +1 gpt, but let's hope this situation improves soon. For now we have to focus on the economy and infastructure before we can expand more.

I end this turnset in 1075 BC when Rotterdam finished construction of a Workboat to hook up the 2nd clams tile. We'll allow Rotterdam to grow to size 4 before we build another Workboat for The Hague, meanwhile the construction of a Courthouse in Rotterdam is continued and will be sped up a bit by some chopping.

Here's the Dutch Empire in 1075 BC:



Masonry will be finished in 5 turns, I'll immediately hook up that stone resource and the road which connects Rotterdam to Amsterdam-Utrecht will be finished by then as well. I'll also try and produce a Great Scientist for an Academy and maybe a Great Prophet to build one of the two available shrines to me. I think I'll want two Academies and then focus Great People production to Great Artists (I'll need Drama for Theatres!).

 

[ilduce349]

the stone only counts if it can be worked, at has to be within a city radius to get the bonus

 

[Dimy]

When Ilduce heard the news that The Hague was founded on a spot he clearly adviced against he ran into William's throne room raging with fear...

"Majesty! I told you that recent studies have shown that Stone must be inside the city radius to help us build wondrous constructions that will show the world our superior culture!

Why did you chose to neglect my advice and build The Hague on some inferior location?! I'm telling you, if you don't listen to my advice I will desert and join Roosevelt's staff instead! I'm sure that he will listen to my studies!"

"Ilduce, my dear advisor, everything you say is highly appreciated and you've proven to be right on many occasions. However, on this subject please give me some turns to prove you're wrong".

"Ok, you'll have until 800 BC to do so!" Ilduce said.

And so it happened that during the next 275 years of gameplay William's goal will be to prove Ilduce' wrongness (??) about the Power of Stone.... or if not William's own stupidity.

To be continued...

 

[Dimy]

Actually, we have two goals for this next turnset:

1) Prove Ilduce is wrong
2) I just realised we're running Slavery civic for a while now but haven't really whipped anything yet! Didn't I mention earlier that whipping things is not one my strenghts? Hmm...let's try this out! Lucky I think we can use some whipping in the next few turns!

In 1025 BC we whip the Library in Amsterdam for 2 pop, this drops Amsterdam to size 4 (happiness limit is currently 6, but -1 for the next 15 turns). Our next build is a Granary. The plan is that the unhappiness penalty for whipping will have disappeared by the time Amsterdam reaches size 6.

Masonry was discovered in 950 BC, coincidently my worker just finished connecting Rotterdam to Amsterdam-Utrecht and my other worker close to Rotterdam just finished chopping to hurry the production of a Courthouse. Both Workers move to the Stone to build a quarry which is due in 5 turns with the joined effort of both workers.



Meanwhile we whipped the Courthouse in Rotterdam for 2 pop, this allowed us to increase science to 70% again with the reduced maintenance costs of Rotterdam. Next build in Rotterdam is a Granary.

In 875 BC we whip a Confucian Temple in Utrecht for 2 pop. Next build is a Library. With all the food around Utrecht this city will grow back to max happiness very soon.

In 825 BC the quarry was build, but somehow I only realised this in 800 BC (I guess because that's when the workers became available again).


For those with bad eyesight, the quarry is 3 tiles east of the lake and outside Rotterdam's Big Fat Cross

Now...let's have a look at the city screen of Amsterdam:



Notice the two marked areas? It's telling me that Amsterdam has Stone available which can be used to speed up certain Wonders such as The Pyramids as shown here.

So there you go.... Who's the ?

Oh something that happened during this turnset is that I traded two health resources for two health resources from Roosevelt (Rice and Sheep, both of which I will eventually hook up myself, but for now it hopefully gives a relationship boost with Roosevelt.

Please note that I haven't chosen a State Religion yet, I'm reluctant to do so but I don't think I can hold of much longer as I could use the bonus of running a State Religion. Roosevelt doesn't seem to have a religion spreaded to him yet, so maybe I should send a Missionary in a Galley and find him... Sailing will be due in 2 turns which will allow me to build Lighthouses, after that I think I want to go for a 3rd religion so let's see, I haven't decided yet.
What else is new on the religion front? Hinduism spread to The Hague, unfortunately a religion I already have, but at least it saves me a Missionary. Rotterdam and The Hague have Hinduism while Amsterdam and Utrecht have Confucianism. If I would have to choose a State Religion it's probably Confucianism as I'll finish a Monastery next in Amsterdam and can crank out some Missionaries to spread the faith to Rotterdam and The Hague.

My next city by the way, will be up north from Amsterdam, then the next one after that will be Ilduce' recommended Stone site .

I'm not building the Pyramids by the way, I think it's too late now to have any hope on that.

 

[topsecret]

Build the Confucian shrine with your Great Prophet then rapidly spread it.$$$!Then,research drama or if you have it, add more money to your culture slider!

 

[Dimy]

Build the Confucian shrine with your Great Prophet then rapidly spread it.$$$!Then,research drama or if you have it, add more money to your culture slider!

I want Drama, Music and Liberalism before considering using the Culture Slider.... but yeah, that's definately going to happen! Maybe I'll use the Great Prophet to bulb a religion tech instead, could use a 3rd or even 4th religion to be honest.

 

[Kullervo]

On your dotmap, there is a city to the north of your continent, in the desert, right next to some rice. I would advise building a city 1 south of where your dot is marked. You'll forfeit the coastline, but you'll get the plains hill that is currently within Mecca/Rotterdam's borders, and that'll give you decent production in that city. It will never be fantastic, but with un-irrigated farms on the grasslands, you might get it to size 8 or so, which is enough for basic needs further on in the game.

Good story so far, but you were so mean to the Arabs... I love having them as a friend, they are quite lenient when it comes to tech deals when friendly (and vassals )

 

[ilduce349]

seems u were right

 

[Dimy]

seems u were right

Yes, but I knew that already. Any resource, be it food, luxary or strategic, just needs to be in your culture zone and hooked up with a quarry, mine, pasture, farm or whatever and connected to your road network.

It's the same reason why I moved The Hague one tile east, it lost the Wheat as a workable tile, but eventually it'll be in the culture zone anyway so I can hook it up and still benefit from the health bonus! (or in this case use it as a trade good because I already connected a Wheat resource at Utrecht).

Anyway, I'm still deciding about my next moves and goals... I'll probably play tomorrow or Thursday so keep tuned... meanwhile I hope for some more feedback and/or advice.

Thanks for reading to those who follow the story of William so far!

@Kullervo: I'll consider that spot, but a coast site with Lighthouse will provide extra food on all those coastal tiles... which give me extra commerce being commercial and all! So I think a coastal city has a bigger potential here in the long run.

 

[Dimy]

Ok, I've got a couple of goals here for the next few turns:

* Get my first Great Person, hopefully Great Scientist for an Acadamy
* Get a State Religion
* Spread my State Religion (if possible to Roosevelt)
* Get a new Religion
* Research towards Drama
* Expand

To get my first goal I change two citizens in Amsterdam as Scientist Specialists, this will increase my chances to get a Great Scientist. Unfortunately the Oracle has already accumulated a lot of Great Prophet points so chances will be probably around 1 to 3.



Great Scientists at work in Amsterdam...

Six turns later this happened in Amsterdam:



Argh..it's a Great Prophet. Not my preference but I think I'll use him to bulb Theology for Christianity (will have to discover Polytheism and Monotheism first though as Roosevelt still doesn't want to trade techs with us!).

And let me explain you why I don't use the Great Prophet to build The Kong Miao in Utrecht:



You see, Utrecht, the Holy City of Confucianism, is also my designated GP Farm. Building the Kong Miao there will mess up my GP gene pool with Great Prophet points! That's not gonna happen, so no shrine here.

The whip is also being used again! This time to rush a Hindu Temple in Rotterdam, I still think I should use it more though... I guess I'm too nice for my people.

In 350 BC I finally decide to adopt Confucianism as my State Religion, I could use the extra happiness to let my cities grow. Rotterdam has already been converted and The Hague will follow soon.

While this was going on I sent a Workboat up north to see if I could find Roosevelt. I was a bit surprised when I saw this:



Ok, so we're not on a blocked off peninsula of a bigger continent, we're actually on our own Island/sub-continent!

What's puzzling me the most though, and I hope someone can explain:



How on earth did Roosevelt manage to cross those ocean tiles with his Workboat?! I'm unable to do so....

I was also building some Galleys to protect my nets near Rotterdam and The Hague from Barbarians. Just 2 turns after I finished my first Galley a Barbarian Galley showed up!



I don't like to quote other people, so hereby my apologies to Sulla and Sirian, but sometimes it's better to be lucky than good!

A couple of big things happened in 35 BC for William and the Dutch Empire... first:



Nijmegen was found in the spot on the north. I could really use Iron Working now to clear those Jungles, but Roosevelt still doesn't want to trade! I think it's because we're the only other civ he has contact with and he thinks he has a Monopoly on the tech... Maybe it was a mistake to take out those Arabs in the early game after all...

The same turn Monotheism was discovered, so I could use that Great Prophet to bulb Theology for the next series of events:







And that's my 3rd religion. Holy City is the newly found Nijmegen as all other cities already had one or two religions. Technically it's 35 years early for Christianity though...

I've beelined towards Music for the free Great Artist, but first up is Mathematics...another tech Roosevelt won't trade with me!

Here's an overview of the Dutch Empire at 35BC:



Another settler just finished and is moving to that spot east of Rotterdam. I also need more workers so Amsterdam is currently working on that. I have one Scientist Specialist is Amsterdam at the moment and got two in Utrecht. I want to build two Academies and after that I'll focus on hiring Artist Specialists only.

My cities:


Roosevelt is Pleased with us, but I'm very disappointed that he won't trade techs with me! It's really delaying my progress as I need to research all those essential techs myself while still trying to focus on my path towards Culture Victory!

So any help would be greatly appreciated by William!