Mafia Game: The Lord of the Rings (Game Thread)

Earthling · Mar 5, 2010

Renata said:
Now I'm really pissed off. Why the heck NOT accuse Theoden, Earthling?

You have been far worse than Autolycus, IMO. Calling it like I see it. (And again - how about explain why Elrond wasted his time? Did you know you could survive an attack? If the inner Fellowship/group of Innocents is being sloppy there's little the rest of us can do about it.)

And seriously, WINSTON is at the head of this mess/to blame if anyone is. You've only come back with vitriol to support Winston again, after not doing much/having any public objections in days! If anyone is to be concerned about because of today alone, it's Winston. Not because he's even necessarily corrupted (though I continue to worry about that, it's been annoyingly not disproved) or not Innocent, but just for making mistakes.

And yeah the "Ugluk is injured" was kinda like a sunk-cost fallacy for all of us btw. In that it's not a rational reason to have preferred Beefy - though there were reasons regarding it being a "safe choice" and all. But as an outside lucky factor is does mean tonight is ok.

I will be voting Bad Player tomorrow and not ever removing my vote until he is dead, just so everyone knows. And no, I don't think the Innocents will lose if we still do our lynches right, so we'll just have to see.

classical_hero · Mar 5, 2010

I am with Earthling on this. Bad Player. yes i know it is night, but My vote will not change, unless we have solid info as to why we should not go for him. Beefy is not a solid option.
@ Camikaze, you could always ask a mod to grant you another post for your write ups.

Verarde · Mar 5, 2010

So it is night now?

'K then, nothing to do for a day except wait.

Earthling · Mar 5, 2010

Actually, one more thing I ought to share. On the principle of sharing everything the town could use right now; combined with the fact I'm so sick of telling Innocents in private to "check into this and tell other known Innocents" and not knowing if they actually ARE talking about it.

So:

Anyone think there's any evidence to be had write-up wise on who's Mafia? I ask because there's a trend I noticed the whole time - the Mafia characters almost never "spoke up"/"participated in a lynch." The only exception I can think of is tycoonist, which is odd I guess, but somebody point out if there was more.

However, that currently leaves us with some interesting stuff - Beefy, Takhisis, and Bad Player (edit: oh and DrumStudent as Figwit, have we seen him?) I've never seen participate in a lynch write-up. In fact that's why I didn't even know (I should have known by lore/reference but I haven't been bothering lately) Theodred was in the game/still alive until Takhisis posted it; also why I confused that character role with Eomer too I think.

Also of note: OST was only mentioned last night I think, and for me it was only a few days ago - I had been ongoing curious about why I wasn't ever involved in a lynch and I think it's because Camikaze knew there was so much suspicion about me being Mafia, and if this "rule" holds true he couldn't mention me. Though could be a lead now.

Anyway, I know this has been out there a while for some - for instance Days back I was asking what anyone knew about Faramir, that it's odd he kept "killing people in the lynches" yet wasn't around/doing anything in game. Obviously because he was a completely inactive lurker before, but Faramir showing up worked out for us.

I haven't double-triple checked everything but it appears no one ever took my requests to read into the lynches seriously anyway, and I bet half the Innocents weren't told anyway because of that nagging feeling Frodo/others are being black holes for information. But now everyone knows and if there's any special way for you to connect the dots and we can all see something here, worth a shot.

Renata · Mar 5, 2010

Earthling said:
You have been far worse than Autolycus, IMO. Calling it like I see it. (And again - how about explain why Elrond wasted his time? Did you know you could survive an attack? If the inner Fellowship/group of Innocents is being sloppy there's little the rest of us can do about it.)

RIGHT. I've been far worse than Autolycus. Exactly what sensitive PMs have I forwarded to the mafia, Earthling? Where have I just sat back and accused random lurking innocents, rather than trying to make things happen?

As for me having survived last night, you're awfully irritated about it. I'll leave it at that.

And seriously, WINSTON is at the head of this mess/to blame if anyone is. You've only come back with vitriol to support Winston again, after not doing much/having any public objections in days! If anyone is to be concerned about because of today alone, it's Winston. Not because he's even necessarily corrupted (though I continue to worry about that, it's been annoyingly not disproved) or not Innocent, but just for making mistakes.

Right. Making mistakes. Like outing Sprig with a critical roleblock that remains the single greatest turning point of this game. Like force-lynching him to ensure that the rest of the townies (and critically, the rest of the mafia) could not be used to his advantage in the future. Like ordering the scanning of LITERALLY nothing but mafia the entire time he's been in charge. Oh yeah, he's done such a horrible job.

And yeah the "Ugluk is injured" was kinda like a sunk-cost fallacy for all of us btw. In that it's not a rational reason to have preferred Beefy - though there were reasons regarding it being a "safe choice" and all. But as an outside lucky factor is does mean tonight is ok.

I will be voting Bad Player tomorrow and not ever removing my vote until he is dead, just so everyone knows. And no, I don't think the Innocents will lose if we still do our lynches right, so we'll just have to see.

You voted Beefy, too.

For what it's worth I did have a rational reason to prefer a lynch of Beefy, though it never made it to the public thread. From a metagame standpoint I just considered it too much, given the lynch difficulties we already know about and our almost complete lack of vigilantes, to also have a role that would be repeatedly unlynchable *without us being told about it the first time*. I was wrong. But don't try to tell me it wasn't rational, or that it was just being "safe".

Renata · Mar 5, 2010

Earthling said:
Actually, one more thing I ought to share. On the principle of sharing everything the town could use right now; combined with the fact I'm so sick of telling Innocents in private to "check into this and tell other known Innocents" and not knowing if they actually ARE talking about it.

So:

Anyone think there's any evidence to be had write-up wise on who's Mafia? I ask because there's a trend I noticed the whole time - the Mafia characters almost never "spoke up"/"participated in a lynch." The only exception I can think of is tycoonist, which is odd I guess, but somebody point out if there was more.

Well here's a simple experiment:

Camikaze, are there intended to be any clues in the write-ups besides the obvious ones (who's killing and who's inactive; who was protected; which items were transferred)?

Don't know why it requires such a behind the scenes effort of speculation.

However, that currently leaves us with some interesting stuff - Beefy, Takhisis, and Bad Player (edit: oh and DrumStudent as Figwit, have we seen him?) I've never seen participate in a lynch write-up. In fact that's why I didn't even know (I should have known by lore/reference but I haven't been bothering lately) Theodred was in the game/still alive until Takhisis posted it; also why I confused that character role with Eomer too I think.

Also of note: OST was only mentioned last night I think, and for me it was only a few days ago - I had been ongoing curious about why I wasn't ever involved in a lynch and I think it's because Camikaze knew there was so much suspicion about me being Mafia, and if this "rule" holds true he couldn't mention me. Though could be a lead now.

Anyway, I know this has been out there a while for some - for instance Days back I was asking what anyone knew about Faramir, that it's odd he kept "killing people in the lynches" yet wasn't around/doing anything in game. Obviously because he was a completely inactive lurker before, but Faramir showing up worked out for us.

I haven't double-triple checked everything but it appears no one ever took my requests to read into the lynches seriously anyway, and I bet half the Innocents weren't told anyway because of that nagging feeling Frodo/others are being black holes for information. But now everyone knows and if there's any special way for you to connect the dots and we can all see something here, worth a shot.

Earthling · Mar 5, 2010

Renata said:
As for me having survived last night, you're awfully irritated about it. I'll leave it at that.

You're awfully not explaining anything. I KNOW Elrond used up like all of his protection ability on you, it's at least a courtesy to say you have SOME explanation if you were safe all this time, even if you don't want to make things fully public. And at this point in time - well, actually, the whole time I might be thinking, I doubt there's much private info that's worth anything, not just dragging Innocents down. You guys were just so great with keeping things private, like the "HAI Everyone, Love is the Eagle and the Mafia can kill him now and we felt like saying that because a low-powered ent role is going to die. And he'll die anyway, we're helping nobody here, just felt like sharing a powerful and unexplained ability the Mafia should be aware of."

The roleblock wasn't that essential, we were gonna lynch Shelob anyway (though I'm sooo thankful she killed Diamondeye, her other kills kinda sucked earlier though) it and I think we all know it. Plus it still doesn't sit well we me that Winston/a few of you killed Gollum for no great reason after he helped us out there. And spriga would have been outed sooner if the elves/organization there in general hadn't been so unaware. As far as the rest of coordination - it really is kinda sad that almost no protection/ability uses other than Gandalf, Faramir (who acted on his own, it seems, but nice call) and the Eagle who was guaranteed to have his ability work, were used correctly. If there really were more people with scans/protections/roleblock they seem to have been used very ineffectively, from my POV - hardly ever blocked a kill or roleblocked a Mafia the whole time!

Yes, I voted Beefy because Winston asked and openly opposing Winston would both have accomplished nothing (still not enough votes on Bad Player) and made it more likely for me to be lynched, wasting more Innocent time.

As far as scanning goes -well, things haven't been perfect but at the same time if there's a second real scanner, it's been utterly awful management. Since Galadriel died I've assumed she was the one and only scanner and it did work out pretty well mostly; didn't scan with the same priorities I would have (like CivG/Beefy earlier) and it seems some Mafia weren't so much scanned as just caught, but it's worked out well enough. Wish she'd scanned me though so people (like you probably will tomorrow, or someone, I know I can't convince everyone) would stop pushing for my lynch.

Renata said:
Don't know why it requires such a behind the scenes effort of speculation.

I suspect
A) He's not going to answer
B) It shouldn't have, except you/Winston/maybe Gandalf or someone before seem to have decided to never work with any other Innocents or pursue leads.

Verarde · Mar 5, 2010

Well, Figwit is such a minor character (which I'm grateful for, this is my first mafia game, but I know the rules pretty well I think, at least the basics. I know enough at least to host my own game!) that he doesn't really get a lot of airplay.

Renata · Mar 5, 2010

I'm not even going to respond to you anymore Earthling; I'd just regret it. Anyone who knows they're considered innocent who wants the answer to the kill survival question, I'll tell you. Just ask.

Renata · Mar 5, 2010

This I will respond to:

Yes, I voted Beefy because Winston asked and openly opposing Winston would both have accomplished nothing (still not enough votes on Bad Player) and made it more likely for me to be lynched, wasting more Innocent time.

On the contrary, those who did vote for Beefy are under more suspicion from me right now, or at least more than anyone who voted for someone else with an actual reason. Because his teammates knew he was in no danger, so why buck the trend? More incentive to pretend to be good townies, right?

Autolycus · Mar 5, 2010

Renata, what did you want me to do besides pressure lurkers and bandwagon those that Winston and Choxorn told us were bad? It's not like they have a bad track record. If I'd had other information, I would have used it, but I didn't. As for the force vote, yes, it may have been a waste of an ability, but I wanted to accomplish my item victory condition (force votes onto a scum). I sent PMs to both Atpg and Winston Hughes asking them if they had a better target for me to use my ability on, and they never got back to me. The forward to Beefy, yes, that was a mistake, but I admitted it immediately and there was virtually no information that was genuinely sensitive in that pm. There were faction scans and that takhisis and I were faction scanners. Woop-de-do.

Camikaze · Jan 19, 2010

Day Thirteen

Spoiler Day Thirteen :

Night Thirteen

Spoiler Night Thirteen :

Day Fourteen

Spoiler Day Fourteen :

Night Fourteen

Spoiler Night Fourteen :

Day Fifteen

Spoiler Day Fifteen :

Night Fifteen

Spoiler Night Fifteen :

Day Sixteen

Spoiler Day Sixteen :

Night Sixteen

Spoiler Night Sixteen :

Day Seventeen

Spoiler Day Seventeen :

Night Seventeen

Spoiler Night Seventeen :

Day Eighteen/Final Write-up

Spoiler Day Eighteen :

Methos · Mar 5, 2010

classical_hero said:
@ Camikaze, you could always ask a mod to grant you another post for your write ups.

Moderator Action: Done. I've added an additional post after the write-up posts and copied the Day 13 write-up to it it.

Renata · Mar 5, 2010

You voted for lurkers and for bandwagons literally exclusively. You never made a serious attempt to put pressure on anyone; in fact all of your votes were either against known mafia or against those who would be least likely to fight back. Until your recent efforts to keep Beefy from being lynched on a couple of occasions, in public you have done literally NOTHING in the least bit controversial. That is classic mafia behavior; someone on another site I've played on dubbed it "clean-nosing" and it is a perfect description.

Then add to that the point you did not address just now: in the whole of your campaign against the lurkers, you never voted for Beefy. You also, though I didn't notice it until just now, never voted for CivGeneral, Beefy's mason "alibi", whom all logic would dictate he would wish kept alive and out of trouble.

Of those low-posters who've lived into the last several turns of the game, only DrumStudent and Csargo (presumed Denethorian and hence perhaps also of interest to Beefy) similarly escaped your votes. Maybe Bad Player should get out his calculator again to figure out how likely it is that you would have missed CivGeneral and Beefy both by mere chance?

Edit: Skipped a day one vote against CivGeneral, which doesn't really count.

Takhisis · Mar 5, 2010

Beefy187 said:
I will be voting for Takhisis again. If anyone cares...

I do, obviously.

classical_hero said:
I kew he was unlynchable from what happened earlier, so those who voted for Beefy, He is wormtongue and as a result he cannot be touched.

Why didn't you tell us before then?

Winston Hughes said:
You knew it wouldn't work, but you waited until after the lynch had failed to mention it? And you're also saying with absolute certainty that he is Wormtongue, and that's the reason he won't die?

So you're a villain, then?

^This.

Renata said:
Now I'm really pissed off. Why the heck NOT accuse Theoden, Earthling? Tell me why not? Autolycus hasn't done #$( this game but force a half dozen players to vote for for someone who a known innocent had decided could be useful to us. Have you summarized his votes? Lurker, lurker, lurker, lurker, bandwagon, lurker, bandwagon, lurker, bandwagon bandwagon. And in all of those useless one-off "who shall today's lurker of choice be?" votes, you know who he never got around to voting for? Beefy. You know who he twice argued should not be lynched, based on assumptions which we now know to be false? Beefy. You know who he once passed sensitive information to, something half the innocents in the game have known about for weeks now and nobody's brought up? Beefy.

Of course he's full of the stuff that comes out of the back end of a cow. It's either that Takhisis is innocent and this is meant to make us think that he is not; or that Takhisis is mafia together with Beefy and they both cooked this up to fool us because "mafia wouldn't do that". Given how little Takhisis has objected to the accusation, compared to how he over-reacted to what was hardly even a strong accusation from Winston and a few other innocents around the same time, I'm leaning toward the latter.

No kidding. But that doesn't make him innocent.

Yeap, I'm innocent.
Known Mafia is throwing idiotic statements at me, I don't care. Leader of Innocents suddenly accusing me of being mafia on something that's already been cleared up (in fact, he didn't tell me he knew who those mafia were, I do care.

Renata said:
On the contrary, those who did vote for Beefy are under more suspicion from me right now, or at least more than anyone who voted for someone else with an actual reason. Because his teammates knew he was in no danger, so why buck the trend? More incentive to pretend to be good townies, right?

Winston said to vote for Beefy again. Why shouldn't I follow?

Autolycus said:
Renata, what did you want me to do besides pressure lurkers and bandwagon those that Winston and Choxorn told us were bad? It's not like they have a bad track record. If I'd had other information, I would have used it, but I didn't. As for the force vote, yes, it may have been a waste of an ability, but I wanted to accomplish my item victory condition (force votes onto a scum). I sent PMs to both Atpg and Winston Hughes asking them if they had a better target for me to use my ability on, and they never got back to me. The forward to Beefy, yes, that was a mistake, but I admitted it immediately and there was virtually no information that was genuinely sensitive in that pm. There were faction scans and that takhisis and I were faction scanners. Woop-de-do.

Please, you gave away an entire night's battle/scan plan as well as revealing our abilities. You might very well be under Wormtongue's influence until he is killed.

Renata said:
You voted for lurkers and for bandwagons literally exclusively. You never made a serious attempt to put pressure on anyone; in fact all of your votes were either against known mafia or against those who would be least likely to fight back. Until your recent efforts to keep Beefy from being lynched on a couple of occasions, in public you have done literally NOTHING in the least bit controversial. That is classic mafia behavior; someone on another site I've played on dubbed it "clean-nosing" and it is a perfect description.

Then add to that the point you did not address just now: in the whole of your campaign against the lurkers, you never voted for Beefy. You also, though I didn't notice it until just now, never voted for CivGeneral, Beefy's mason "alibi", whom all logic would dictate he would wish kept alive and out of trouble.

Of those low-posters who've lived into the last several turns of the game, only DrumStudent and Csargo (presumed Denethorian and hence perhaps also of interest to Beefy) similarly escaped your votes. Maybe Bad Player should get out his calculator again to figure out how likely it is that you would have missed CivGeneral and Beefy both by mere chance?

Edit: Skipped a day one vote against CivGeneral, which doesn't really count.

Aaand where did you get the vote summary? From yours truly.

Now, a general comment about your recent batch of posts. CALM DOWN. This is a game. There's enough poop IRL to be getting angry on this as well.

P.S.: I'm a bluenose, and it's clean, too.

Renata · Mar 5, 2010

Just a clarification: no, I did the vote summary together with RRRaskolnikov a week or so ago. It has interim votes, unvotes, and all that good stuff.

Winston Hughes · Mar 5, 2010

Earthling said:
except you/Winston/maybe Gandalf or someone before seem to have decided to never work with any other Innocents or pursue leads.

We've been working with plenty of other innocents, and have pursued a whole stack of leads - more, in fact, than I've ever seen in any previous mafia or NotW game in which I've played. What we haven't done is tell everything to everybody. That's just the way things go. There are only a small handful of things that are still not public knowledge, but I can assure you that there are very good reasons for keeping them quiet.

Also, if people disagree with me on something, then they should say so, and they should cast their votes accordingly. I make no claims to infallibility, and although I do think I've done a lot of good work in this game, I'm quite prepared to accept that I have been wrong in some cases, and that I may well make other mistakes before this game is over. Right now, though, nearly all of the info is out in public, and there is certainly enough for people to make their minds up on without simply following my lead.

We've already done what seemed near impossible a few weeks ago, and wiped out the Mordor crew. At this stage, the only thing that stands between us and a legendary comeback victory is the Isengard posse, one of whom we already know. So, let's draw a line under all this bickering, and get on with the serious business of catching those last remaining scumbags.

TheLastOne36 · Mar 5, 2010

Heh, It's funny how we play this game without Aragorn or Legolas. Such a horrible start could end up ending beautifully.

Takhisis · Mar 5, 2010

Winston Hughes said:
We've been working with plenty of other innocents, and have pursued a whole stack of leads - more, in fact, than I've ever seen in any previous mafia or NotW game in which I've played. What we haven't done is tell everything to everybody. That's just the way things go. There are only a small handful of things that are still not public knowledge, but I can assure you that there are very good reasons for keeping them quiet.

Also, if people disagree with me on something, then they should say so, and they should cast their votes accordingly. I make no claims to infallibility, and although I do think I've done a lot of good work in this game, I'm quite prepared to accept that I have been wrong in some cases, and that I may well make other mistakes before this game is over. Right now, though, nearly all of the info is out in public, and there is certainly enough for people to make their minds up on without simply following my lead.

Of course there are good reasons for keeping quiet... but you still keep the cards too close to yourself at times. It would reassure some paranoids (most notably, Earthling) that you're still around if you at least talked more.
Still, Frodo's supposed to lie down while the Orcs are looking for him and we people go to fight them.

Winston Hughes said:
We've already done what seemed near impossible a few weeks ago, and wiped out the Mordor crew. At this stage, the only thing that stands between us and a legendary comeback victory is the Isengard posse, one of whom we already know. So, let's draw a line under all this bickering, and get on with the serious business of catching those last remaining scumbags.

Reporting for duty, sir! :ninja:

TheLastOne36 said:
Heh, It's funny how we play this game without Aragorn or Legolas. Such a horrible start could end up ending beautifully.

It's still feasible, you know, even after all the lynching-our-own-allies and not-knowing-who-the-Mafia-are bits.

Bad Player · Mar 5, 2010

A random thought:

Were Mordor and Isenguard meant to compete directly against eachother? If so, why does Isenguard seem to have half? less than? the strength of Mordor (if you go purely by numbers)?

Mafia Game: The Lord of the Rings (Game Thread)

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