SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

Duckweed said:

What happens to dingding?

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Hey, here

I've been busy since a couple of weeks for X and Y reasons (internship, final exams, changing city, etc.).

However I'll manage to find some time to take the next set. Hopefully can finish it early next week.

Will try to submit the plan ASAP.

Can you take the time to play 1 turn to finish Paper, check Toku's 2 closest cities for SoD and trade maps (ZY, Mehmed, Saladin) - today?
EDIT: Justinian, not Saladin (reversed the 2 in my head)

kossin said:

Can you take the time to play 1 turn to finish Paper, check Toku's 2 closest cities for SoD and trade maps (ZY, Mehmed, Saladin) - today?

Click to expand...

Yep. Let me just check the save and your previous posts.

Here is the plan for the pre-set:



Explanation about the *:


About map trades:


I'll wait a bit. If not any problem, I'll play within tonight. (5 hours since now)

T156
Remember we circled the globe so the wb has 3 moves (can check Osaka this turn by moving 2S of it)
Why slider 40% research? It will be a while before we get the next multipliers in and I'd rather not get asked for our gold.
I think we can delay the 7th cottage in Varanasi some more and improve something N of Vijay (farm presumably)
FW in Patali was for chopping in Parthenon, I'd wait for the Forge whip before chopping Varanasi's forest.
FW by Vijay was originally to help chop Parthenon but I guess that isn't too pressing (neither is the Incense... we can make a worker from Calcutta at size 4 maybe) - maybe help north?

Using your calculations for granary:
work 3H stone
+4f+4C + (-2F+3H) from pop, +12F from granary. Total: +14F+3H+4C is 1 hammer better. [Man I love granaries... they double the value of food !]

T157
Why sell Mathematics for maps? I realize only Izzy has Stone but seeing as the 'easy' war solution is to vassal the Buddhist continent we should leave them backwards as much as possible.
Trading our map should be fine enough, surely?
BTW, Izzy won't trade maps below Friendly. However ZY might have unloaded a unit on her landmass so it might be worth it to get his map anyway.

~~~

Next tech is Music I assume? (to ensure we get the GA and it's too early for Education yet I think+we want to give ourselves a chance to bulb it)

kossin said:

T156
Remember we circled the globe so the wb has 3 moves (can check Osaka this turn by moving 2S of it)
Why slider 40% research? It will be a while before we get the next multipliers in and I'd rather not get asked for our gold.
I think we can delay the 7th cottage in Varanasi some more and improve something N of Vijay (farm presumably)
FW in Patali was for chopping in Parthenon, I'd wait for the Forge whip before chopping Varanasi's forest.
FW by Vijay was originally to help chop Parthenon but I guess that isn't too pressing (neither is the Incense... we can make a worker from Calcutta at size 4 maybe) - maybe help north?

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1. Okey.
2. Slider to 40% in case we wanna discuss the tech path. And we'll use up the gold in 2 turns anyway. (Edit: more gold, better map trade.)
3. Will revise the FW moves.

kossin said:

Using your calculations for granary:
work 3H stone
+4f+4C + (-2F+3H) from pop, +12F from granary. Total: +14F+3H+4C is 1 hammer better. [Man I love granaries... they double the value of food !]

Click to expand...

Right.

kossin said:

T157
Why sell Mathematics for maps? I realize only Izzy has Stone but seeing as the 'easy' war solution is to vassal the Buddhist continent we should leave them backwards as much as possible.
Trading our map should be fine enough, surely?
BTW, Izzy won't trade maps below Friendly. However ZY might have unloaded a unit on her landmass so it might be worth it to get his map anyway.

Click to expand...

Aesthetics, CS, CoD and Calendar are all unique techs we own. Giving out Maths seems the most reasonable trade.
I'm not sure how much our map values in Emp. I think I overestmated AI's consideration of map value.
Don't worry I'll make the best bargain. We'll have 230g next turn. Maybe we can get Meditation+Gold+Map for map from Meh, then Map+gold for map from Justine.
Zara is the last one to trade map frankly speaking.

Revised plan:



Edit: WIII Warrior moves 1N1E to fogbuster
Edit2:
Demands to accept: Any techs except Calendar, gold < 130g (leave 100g for map trade), change Reli, resources except Marble.
Demands to refuse: Cancel OB. DoW.
Edit 3: for map trades
Edit 4: Slider at 100%

Slider doesn't matter, the overflow will be kept regardless of where we decide to send it. And we'll get more gold anyway from trading maps making it more dangerous to get begged. (if we get begged for 10 gold there's no problem giving it away)

Why chop the Varanasi forest pre-Forge? We can let it grow to 7 to avoid whipping the fp cottages.
WIII warrior is already 5x5 fogbusting every possible tile from barb galleys. Moving him outside the culture might cost 1 gold at some point.

kossin said:

Slider doesn't matter, the overflow will be kept regardless of where we decide to send it. And we'll get more gold anyway from trading maps making it more dangerous to get begged. (if we get begged for 10 gold there's no problem giving it away)

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Just WB check. AI's map at that spot is about 70-120g. Our map is worth 50-80g. Meditation is worth nearly nothing in the test.

OK to keep the slider at 100%. But given we haven't yet got Justine's +4 from generous trade, I'd like to make it right now while he's not the WE of Toku (he's got a great chance to make so in the future)

Map Trades:
Meditation+Map and/or money for Map from Meh.
Maths for map from Justine

kossin said:

Why chop the Varanasi forest pre-Forge? We can let it grow to 7 to avoid whipping the fp cottages.

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If we chop the forest, Forge would be a 2 pop whipping instead of 6.
I decided to move the FW to farm with another, giving up building a cottage in Varan. So I prefer a 2-pop whipping there instead of 3.

kossin said:

WIII warrior is already 5x5 fogbusting every possible tile from barb galleys. Moving him outside the culture might cost 1 gold at some point.

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Are you sure?


The WB will be back in 4 turns so at worst we'll loose 4 gold.
If it pops a Galley, it would certainly be annoying (ruin of the clam and blockage to the WB's coming back)

Absolutely, galleys can only spawn on coast. Both fogged coast tiles are in the 5x5 square around the warrior.

Question 1st -- Do we really need Justinian's map? Our chariot will scout them all in the next 10~20 turns. I vote for NO.

If the consensus is yes, then I'd do the following trade:

Jus -- Map <-> Map followed by
Meh -- Med <-> Map or Map <-> Map I don't think Med + Map is necessary.

How about let Del build Monastery this turn and whip next turn, 10% more beakers are more than the yield from 1 extra tile and this won't delay NE.

Var -- FW, better to finish the last cottage there since the cottages 1N is going to be worked by 3 clam city. Vij won't need more tiles shortly since we are going to whip the forge.

Vij -- takes Horse from Bombay. Why not send the FW to pat for chop? I don't have a clear idea when we can finish Part in Pat, If it can be finished in 15 turns, then another FW is needed there to do 3 chops

The E galley should move south toward whale tile, we don't know whether the barbarian galley is killed or not.

Played and uploaded:

The final FW moves:


Delhi switches to monastery as Duck suggests.

Pics speaks for themselves: (Found Toku's SoD!!)

Looks nice, DingDing ! Toku --> Justinian. That's a relief !!!
I'll check the map a bit later, I'm short on time, right now.

Toku has some really nice land.

Well done dingding!

It's clear we don't have to war at all to get our resources with Izzy+Meh having multiple resources.
However, it opens up the possibility of farming 2~3 GG's to replace GPs on the fur tile, further opening up bulbing or a 4th GA.
Cost: 30, 60, 90, 120 (300 for the first 4)

Justinian has room for 5~6 more cities while Mehmed 8+. Our UN opponent would likely be Mehmed. Well... Izzy+ZY aren't going to vote us over him as long as they are in the same religion.
So we need to start planning the UN vote *NOW* and manipulate diplo in that direction.

ZY is a non-factor in the UN vote imo, he'll get 4 cities at most. Still easy to get his vote (+5 Theo)
Toku isn't going to vote for us without sharing a war (Mercantilism+6... no way this is going to work).
Saladin might but we'll need to milk all we can from him (only +2 Theocracy)
Izzy might (Theo +4)
Justinian (Theo +5)
Mehmed (Vassalage +5)

We can always let Mehmed be our UN opponent, all we'll need to do is change his religion the turn before the UN vote (easy to determine with BUFFY). This can be done via Spy or bribing (Pleased). We'll have more than enough votes with Izzy+ZY+Justinian+Ourselves

This would mean that we don't care about Toku+Saladin so they could be vassal/GG farming candidates - making it easier as they are pretty close to us. Moreover, if the island by Justinian is the Fur island, then it makes even more sense as we'd need troops in that direction anyway.

Adding FP on that landmass or simply releasing the cities as a colony would take care of maintenance costs.

Anyway, this is a possibility. Feel free to suggest something easier!

~~~
Resources trades should be updated this turn of the next set.

If Meh or Justine is the UN rival, I can't find an easier game to win the diplo:

Convert to Hindu. Vassalize Justine and Izzy. Convert Zara into Hindu.
Then it's Zara+Saladin+Justine+Izzy+(Toku) 's votes for us, leaving Meh voting for himself.

The only problem is to get the Silk north of Meh ASAP. I think we probably need to spam 4-6 Swordmen before 1AD to capture the bar city.

Also I'd like load the Chariot into the galley and explore the bar island where there is a great chance to have a barbarian city on the Fur.

Edit: I found I'd make a mistake of screenshot. The settler of Toku should be at 1E of the Cow at pic 1.

BornInCantaloup said:

Looks nice, DingDing ! Toku --> Justinian. That's a relief !!!

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What, you felt nervous on something that was almost impossible -- (Justinian's power is more than 1.5 time of Toku's power).

Great, Now I see the great feasibility of 1st war on Zara!

@dingding
Could work, but I think it makes a lot of moving troops around to cap 2 AIs on 2 different landmasses (granted we have ~100 turns to do this). It's also no guarantee to get Toku's vote this way.

The galley can go to the island right away I guess, but that will leave our FW stranded with not much other than roads to do for a long while.

It's almost certain the barb city is on top of the Fur... and I would expect no less than Rifles protecting it. I guess it makes the most sense to give those trying Culture a better chance compared to UN.

When can we expect to see the plan for next 14 turns?

@Duckweed
What would be the benefit of a war on Zara? His capital is nice but then that'd limit our DoW flexibility a lot =\

Duckweed:
Yeah, I felt nervous because I feared MY set might have been a disaster

Maybe I just need better knowledge of the game to gain your confidence (saw your post regarding the 2 articles to read, btw. I'll read them).
Sorry I can't offer much input at the moment. I have only limited internet time but I'm working on that technical issue !!

kossin said:

It's almost certain the barb city is on top of the Fur... and I would expect no less than Rifles protecting it. I guess it makes the most sense to give those trying Culture a better chance compared to UN.

Only high chance. It would be better design if that island needed Astro to reach. Then I'd believe the FUR is there for certain.

@Duckweed
What would be the benefit of a war on Zara? His capital is nice but then that'd limit our DoW flexibility a lot =\

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Isn't this reason enough? A great capital plus a good city nearby. Only zara's cities will be a boost to our empire. Maybe add Cordoba. OK, another reason is that Izzy will be bribed to DOW us by Zara, so that we have another DOW left for either Justinian or Meh.

Agree with your opinion on the silk city, the chance of getting it before Meh/Izzy is close to zero.

Dow Zara will hit on our trade routes though... pretty badly too. (no ties to ZY, Izzy, Mehmed)

He's also going after Feudalism now (granted he won't have much units).

Anyway, it makes sense I guess. We'll need an army at some point and hitting ZY will be pretty easy... we just need to make it fast and be able to deal with Izzy (maybe a few Triremes )

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that we should be ready to war Izzy right away if we go after Zara. Losing so many trade routes isn't good so the wars would need to be really swift.

EDIT2: Anyone notice the sudden drop of OSS's score on the graph? Looks like they got hit by some bad luck.