Hagia Sophia and Macedonia

Their language was not greek in origin (or better, it's somewhat difficult to prove that), and the doric dialect was used along the normal attician dialect.... The most ancient words of macedonian language were not greek, but of another indoeuropean people... the glosses were totally different from greek or doric dialect, to be specific...

If you are stating that they were the same people, it's not so sure (to be honest there are very few historians that now say they belonging to the same strain for sure)...

Evidance in language, arts and other aspects of the macedonian culture speak of something else... i'm sorry, but that's the truth...

And if you want i can show you as much epigraphical material necessary to prove it...

Don't worry, i worked for some time at Benaki Museum, if you know it...

The most accredited theory right now, based on the archeological and linguistic evidances, speak of Macedonian as an indoeuropean people of the same strain of Illyrics and Epirotes, that established themselves in the region called Macedonia after the doric invasion of Greece... They adopt language and some uses from the greek people (a part from the doric people in the region another from the most prominent city stats of Attica...)...

The linguistic evidences are something like, if i remember correctly,the use of phoneme B instead of PH, the latter is the common greek...

There are other like G that in ancient greek is CH (i'm speaking of phonemes, not the alphabet)... In general the voiceless aspirated... we have about 700 words of the ancient language of macedonians, and, among them, many have no greek in the source...

Frigian and Illyrian langiages, have some similarities with them... So it's not proved at all that Macedonians are greek...

On the last statement of the previous user... When you match a superior civilization by culture, it's 100% sure that you will try to establish a link with it, to dignify your origin and you for sure will adopt their cutlure to ensure that.... The same was for the Romans... they wanted to establish a link with some great origin... so invented the story of Romulus descending from Aeneas (and the Iuli were proud of descending from Aeneas' son..)... And with that they were the heirs of Troy.... That's a common thing....

look i have heard again and again...and again the theory of indo-european people... and this "theory" just not only consider Macedonian people but ALL the city states of Greece. Athenians, Spartans and so on....
If you want to prove that all Greek weren't Greek OK... i have heard it before...(and this thing doesn't consider only Greek language but all Greek civilization).

But i'm asking you... If Macedonians weren't Greek what the hell were they..?? i have given you 10-15 examples that i explain why i am mad OF THIS TOPIC... Give me ONE..ONE..ONE.. example for the opposite...!!!

Tell me ONE thing....

and "benaki Museum" i know it for sure...although its a total unnecessary thing...

Then go to Benaki Museum, thera are macedonian coins with inscription....

They were probably of the same strain of Illyrians and Frygians (Neroznak, 1973 as reference)... That's all... Indoeuropean don't mean that they are all greeks Romans were indoeuropean, but not greeks.

And i don't understand why are you so upset about that, you are not Macedonian, they are existinc as people...

As an example you wrote that Macedonians had the the same greek gods, but it's untrue to some extend... First, most of the cults like the dionisiac mysteries were of eastern origin, as you surely know. Even Zeus had some traits from oriental religions....

Hammond and Wallbank in their History of Macedonia are more clear...

I'm not an expert of Macedonian history, but i have some books, if you wait i will consult them to be more specific...

look my friend ...what do you want to prove..??

that Macedonians weren't Greek... that Athenians weren't Greek (Dionysian mysteries were for all Greek although you say that they were eastern origin ...).

I have said 15 examples that i wrote... (my English isn't so good to answer).

All the historians say about the Hellenistic period... you of course have another option.

The truth is that every Greek is proud of Alexander what he had done. Say whatever you want...me and you are totally small to write to a forum and say anything...but its annoying to say something that all historians doesn't prove.

For me Alexander explore Greek - Hellenistic civilization.... for you it isn't... Greek civilization is so much bigger than your opinion...
Greek civilization and history last the Roman-Byzantium-Ottoman empire....when everybody want to destroy it (with facts) ...it will last today....haters try enough we will stand.


and tell me what Gods did Macedonians believe?,,not Hammond and Wallbank but something real...you as i understand you have problem with all Greek history.

is tin poli said:

that Macedonians weren't Greek... that Athenians weren't Greek (Dionysian mysteries were for all Greek although you say that they were eastern origin ...).

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Dionysian mysteries were not greek at all, they were imported... Dyonisius is a greek god, but he assimilated the Tracian cults, it was the same for Sabatius and the Kabyri.... The mysteries of Demeter were autochthonous, even before the hellenic invasion...

Macedonians used to be more close to Tracian (and some other eastern people) tradition and religion in the beginning...

Now i don't care at all of your ranting about Alexander, if you want to think that pink elephants are flying over Paris, it's ok, but please take your "way of thinking" for you, someone can be influenced by your ideas or learn wrong concepts of history...


Hammond and Wallbank are two historians...:suicide:

PS to crush your "pride", i can tell you that, modern Greece is far away from the strain of ancient greeks... You were, as italians(i'm italian) dominated by foreign country, so you don't share a single drop of blood of ancient greeks, as well we italians don't share blood with romans.... So you have little in common with Alexander, maybe he walked on the same land where you reside, that's all... i'm proud of being italian, but i'm not so delusional to take a character as Alexander or, in my case, Augustus, as a hero of my country....

look my friend ... you believe Thracian city state isn't Greek; you believe anything of Greece isn't Greek ....what can i say....
Dionysian mysteries was a Greek celebration were all the Greek had fun...the enjoy the chance of being alive... you can say whatever you want....we love it and we want it to be even today...Im not a historian but its clear that you aren't too...i don't care what you say...you can give how many smile you want; but the time will past you...
cheers for you....

edit: tell me my friend that you are an Italian...tell me....i can understand you know... cheers...were the only thing you gave to the history was Colosseum with the 1 million ways to die and live animal sex..!!...tell me...know i understand you..!!!!

@Hammond and Wallbank are two historians..





dig another more ...you can find another "historians" too...

look my friend.... the ancient Roman civilization is a totally joke...
It is an annoying copy (or cut) paste of Greek civilization..
It is actually a Bad CUT-PASTE but what ...can we do...


After 1.000 and more years of "Middle Ages" and the total destroy of anything Greek (destroy of ancient Greek monuments and destroy of any ancient Greek Temples and most of all Greek Philosophy) we had the Renaissance...which Greek Monks from Constantinople (Istanbul) left the capital of Byzantium and went to Florence and spread to the "Italians" the ancient Greek civilization...am i wrong..?????
And we had the GREAT and only "true" COPY-PASTE (not cut-paste) ...AGAIN of ancient Greek civilization to Florence and the Renaissance....am i wrong,..???

You can say whatever you want about Greek or Macedonian civilization but history will just say ...aliverdeci for you.

The real important thing to keep in mind when considering why Alexander is the leader of the Greek civ is the fact that for the next few centuries every empire and kingdom from Greece to Persia can be considered Hellenistic.

is tin poli said:

look my friend.... the ancient Roman civilization is a totally joke...
It is an annoying copy (or cut) paste of Greek civilization..
It is actually a Bad CUT-PASTE but what ...can we do...


After 1.000 and more years of "Middle Ages" and the total destroy of anything Greek (destroy of ancient Greek monuments and destroy of any ancient Greek Temples and most of all Greek Philosophy) we had the Renaissance...which Greek Monks from Constantinople (Istanbul) left the capital of Byzantium and went to Florence and spread to the "Italians" the ancient Greek civilization...am i wrong..?????
And we had the GREAT and only "true" COPY-PASTE (not cut-paste) ...AGAIN of ancient Greek civilization to Florence and the Renaissance....am i wrong,..???

You can say whatever you want about Greek or Macedonian civilization but history will just say ...aliverdeci for you.

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Ah now i undersand, you are joking!

The whole thread was a joke! It's amusing, excuse me, i had not seen the humorous vein of your speech

Alexander best player eva! the Hellenistic team has best players, next league champions, the Roman team have no chance this year, not after they lose Costantine to the twin team, the Roman oriental empire! Yoh!!!

Callonia said:

Why does Hagia Sophia in this game has to include the four poles which was only put on it to convert it from a church into a mosque upon conquest of Constantinople. It bugs me, in fact, it bugged me since civ 4 XD

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Oh yeah I agree let's ignore all historical progressions to suit our far right conservative views.

Callonia said:

Why does Hagia Sophia in this game has to include the four poles which was only put on it to convert it from a church into a mosque upon conquest of Constantinople. It bugs me, in fact, it bugged me since civ 4 XD

And then, why did Firaxis choose to have Alexander be leader of Greece when in reality he's a leader of Macedonia. Greece got their butts whooped by him, even now, they still hold a grudge.

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I agree with you on both accounts......good observation

Me and others have presented reasonable arguments and evidence to support the obvious and single truth.Yet some still try hard to prove us wrong.No problem, however like I said in previous post, You're gonna see Alexander as king of Fyrom in Civilization 102, IF you still exist by then.

Also, for those who feel the prefecture of Macedonia is anything other than Greek, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!

prefecture of Macedonia.. Is something to eat???

But i don't remember in any archeological o bibliographical evidance of that name...


To me all the rant about Alexander is: Υργή κοιλία...

BeyondCivilized said:

Oh yeah I agree let's ignore all historical progressions to suit our far right conservative views.

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The Hagia Sophia looks cooler with minarets. Yes it was originally a church, an effin BIG church. It has not always been a mosque.

As for Alex I think I would probably define him as Greek.

The Prefecture of Macedonia is a Greek province.

Also really? Rome wasn't that great was it? I have something to show you:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

BeyondCivilized said:

Oh yeah I agree let's ignore all historical progressions to suit our far right conservative views.

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The Hagia Sophia with minarets bothers me in the same way that it bothers me that Stonehenge in the game is just represented by the inner stones that we see today. The original structure of the monument was more complex, and it was actually part of a larger set of monuments.

JLoZeppeli said:

Their language was not greek in origin (or better, it's somewhat difficult to prove that), and the doric dialect was used along the normal attician dialect.... The most ancient words of macedonian language were not greek, but of another indoeuropean people... the glosses were totally different from greek or doric dialect, to be specific...

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In all fairness, the most ancient words of the Greek language are not necessarily Greek either; even mighty Mycenae, the greatest of those first, foremost early Greek Mycenaean city states is a name that is totally, and unmistakeably non-Greek in origin.

Just because an ancient strata of language is non of the following dominant language is not itself proof of anything: it must be remembered that indo-european as a whole is language that was moved into regions by peoples who did not wipe out the peoples who preceded them, but rather intermingled with them, and forged the cultures we know of today.

And the gloss of a particular word is rather minor -even today, in modern culture in the US, thier are totally different words from region to region for the word 'soda', and the meaning of the term 'choad' has totally different meaning from one area to another, and this is all in a society and culture largly homogenized by pop culture and modern media. So I am extremely skeptical about the validity even 700 words of different meaning or origin might mean in light of the later language which, so far as i have encountered in readings, is considered a dialect of Dorian Greek.

OK, it's obvious that the OP just wanted to start a flame war in this thread, by picking two subjects like that and taking separate sides in each one, in order to cleverly hide his trolling purposes... An interesting approach I might say... lol

Well I won't say much. There's really no reason to feed the trolls. I'll only give you one link, for those who happen to read this thread and want to learn some useful information on the subject. It was made from academic historians, university professors from all over the world, who gathered lots of accurate information and presented real facts to the public, as well as the US president Obama through a letter they signed and sent to him. The website is

http://macedonia-evidence.org/

For those who are easily bored there's even a F.A.Q.!

Philip and Alexander the Great were Greek. Case closed.

PS. I repeat, the scholars who sign these are not only Greeks, but from all over the world and most of them are well known for their expertise in the history of Greece. For a full listing of all 332 signatures, see here.

JLoZeppeli said:

Ah now i undersand, you are joking!

The whole thread was a joke! It's amusing, excuse me, i had not seen the humorous vein of your speech

Alexander best player eva! the Hellenistic team has best players, next league champions, the Roman team have no chance this year, not after they lose Costantine to the twin team, the Roman oriental empire! Yoh!!!

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All this argument is meaningless anyway, imo, because its like if people arguing over whether Nikolai Tesla was an American or a Serb, it depends on your definitions, whether you're talking ethnicity or citizenship. When you're arguing over Alexander, you're also arguing over definitions. Alexander thought of himself as a Greek and fought for Greece, and established "Hellenistic Greece", while at the time of his conquests his upbringing was somewhat culturally separate from the Hellenic states.

Basically I have no problem with the game calling him a Greek!

civgr said:

OK, it's obvious that the OP just wanted to start a flame war in this thread, by picking two subjects like that and taking separate sides in each one, in order to cleverly hide his trolling purposes... An interesting approach I might say... lol

Well I won't say much. There's really no reason to feed the trolls. I'll only give you one link, for those who happen to read this thread and want to learn some useful information on the subject. It was made from academic historians, university professors from all over the world, who gathered lots of accurate information and presented real facts to the public, as well as the US president Obama through a letter they signed and sent to him. The website is

http://macedonia-evidence.org/

For those who are easily bored there's even a F.A.Q.!

Philip and Alexander the Great were Greek. Case closed.

PS. I repeat, the scholars who sign these are not only Greeks, but from all over the world and most of them are well known for their expertise in the history of Greece. For a full listing of all 332 signatures, see here.

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No intentions to start a flame war.

Its some of stuff I've always pondered for a long time.

ur rather egoist