SGOTM 05 - Geezers

No quibbles about the city builds.

Research:

My first inclination was to beeline to Construction. It won't be long and we'll be needing cats. However, if Confusionism is not yet discovered, we might want to beeline to CoL first. If we get Confus and change to it, we'll get some much needed smileys. Since everybody already hates us, who cares about religion minuses? Oh, and we might like some Courthouses to minimize the pain of distance maintenance.

Now this is an interesting subject to discuss. :) Beeline to Construction has definite advantages for warring. However both Maths & Construction have long research times (30 & 49 turns respectively). :( Total research time is 79 turns.

CoL (49 turns) for courts & confucianism has Meditation (7 turns) & Priesthood (6 turns) as pre-requisites. Both of the pre-requisites are already part researched so total research time would be 62 turns. This is 17 turns less than the beeline to Construction. Meditation & Priesthood are also pre-requisites for Monarchy so the research into them helps two lines of research. Once Meditation & Priesthood is learnt we could reassess whether we want/need Monarchy earlier. Total research for Monarchy and pre-requisites is 55 turns.

Other alternatives are Metal Casting (53 turns), for forges and an additional happiness from :gold:, and Iron Working (23 turns) for swordsmen. Axes are good but swords have distinct advantages for city attacks.

Personally I think there is a fairly good case to go for Meditation & Priesthood initially. Our barb allies are likely to reduce the cost of research for us anyway. We can then decide if CoL for confucianism is still worth it or whether some other tech is a better choice. With luck the cost to research some of the other techs may well have reduced by then.

NB. Following AgedOne's research we need to remember that if we found Confucianism the holy city may well go to a barb city on lush island or somewhere else. :eek:

EDIT: We should road to our new city asap to reduce costs. The worker by Beshbalik can return to the cottage later.
 
19) 865BC : Cyrus completes The Pyramids

Phew. I doubt we would have finished in time, even if we would have settled beneath the stones.

Besides this, things start to get going :)
Looks promising. Now lets build some galleys and LET ME RRRUUULE THE WORLD - ahem I mean lets take some preparations for a forward defense.

I think we need both Construction (Cats) and CoL (Courthouses). For founding Confucianism I don't care - we probably won't get it. But a barb holy city on Lushland may be not bad either. It's not only the barbs who suck a war, the "right" AIs aren't much better either.

I would research Construction first, to build some cats while researching to CoL, to build a courthouse in Alex' old capital (which we probably will want to keep).
And we need Fishing/Sailing before, and are we still in to time take our first victim without cats?
 
I think our pace is good. Still we have 24h for a "got it" and 48h to play. We should keep that to keep us engaged in the game. For me it is more fun to play a quick moving game. Furthermore with this starting position there is not much to do anyway. We do not have to fear any barbs and the AIs are still in settling mode. A big part of the map is still clear. However after The-Hawk finishes his turnset we will change to 10 turns / player.

Fishing we already have and sailing is about to be finished. After that we can concentrate on confucionism or construction. Iron Working would be high on my list, too as we have some jungle to clear. After growing Ning Hsia will have just one more forest to work IIRC. Turfan just has sea tiles.
 
I think our pace is good. Still we have 24h for a "got it" and 48h to play. We should keep that to keep us engaged in the game. For me it is more fun to play a quick moving game. Furthermore with this starting position there is not much to do anyway. We do not have to fear any barbs and the AIs are still in settling mode. A big part of the map is still clear. However after The-Hawk finishes his turnset we will change to 10 turns / player.

I agree, markh. I'm actually quite enjoying us being ahead of the bunch. It means we can find our line on the graph very easily, and then check back over the next few days to see how the other teams are comparing to us. We're sitting quite well at the moment. Nobody else is tearing off into a score lead - not that scores are what it's all about at this stage.

(The 'Power' graph is a little more intriguing at this stage. You can see how we are staying low, but beginning to increase dramatically, while others - like Gypsy Kings, Fifth Element and Misfits - seem to have gone for early power)

Fishing we already have and sailing is about to be finished. After that we can concentrate on confucionism or construction. Iron Working would be high on my list, too as we have some jungle to clear.


My vote would go for construction and iron. As we all know, cats rule, and they'll be just the thing for weedling a few entrenched phalanxes out of their foxholes!

Confucianism is interesting. I think there's a random chance as to which city in your (combined) empire gets the holy city status. Once we settle our SE city, we'll have 5 and the Barbs have (iirc) 3. So that's a 62.5% chance that we get it, 37.5% that they get it.

What benefit would it be if the barbs get a holy city? It won't spread to us. It might spread to the AI?? They will get cultural border expansions. I can't imagine they'll handle religion very well - using Gt Prophets etc. Sounds like it would be an interesting diversion, but not too useful to us. So I'd not expend too much energy getting Confucianism first.
 
Looks like the front runners for research are Construction & CoL with Iron Working as third. AgedOne & drhirsh think we should head for Construction first. Mark said Col or Construction next but not necessarily in that order.

Personally I feel the 3 :mad: in Karakorum, which I feel will affect our other cities when they grow, needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. As such I would prefer Col or Monarchy first. The reason is that the unhappiness in our cities will affect both our production and :gold:. :whipped: is obviously one solution but I have my doubts as to how much that will help us in the short term with the existimg WW.

The lack of :gold: will affect research. Since both Maths & Construction need lots of research I feel we should be looking for techs with an early(ish) payback. Bear in mind that the WW so far is before we even generate our own before attacking Alex. Equally part of our problem is that our allies have been remiss in scouting Alex's land for us. Hence we do not know if cats are a 'nice to have' or 'essential'.

On the subject of WW should we be looking to make peace with anyone? I suspect the answer is no unless we can be sure it will reduce WW or allow some trading.
 
Personally I feel the 3 :mad: in Karakorum, which I feel will affect our other cities when they grow, needs to be addressed sooner rather than later .... On the subject of WW should we be looking to make peace with anyone? I suspect the answer is no unless we can be sure it will reduce WW or allow some trading.

I believe peace with any AI will reduce WW, but I don't know this to be a fact. I didn't realize WW was this bad. I think we are going to have to make peace with some AI's or we will stop growing. Not sure with who though. I'd like to keep lush island AI's at war, so I was going to suggest peace with isolated AI's. However, the way barbie is going, maybe she will overcome Qin and we'll end up with a fully settled island. Maybe we should make peace with the lush island AI's with religions, hoping they will war with each other once the barb threat has ended.

Having said all that, as there are few who would even make peace (without us giving up something), we might need to take what we can get.

drhirsch said:
I would research Construction first, to build some cats while researching to CoL, to build a courthouse in Alex' old capital (which we probably will want to keep).

Yes, I think you have it right on this one. I liked CoL for couthouses, I think they will be a necessity once we are off our start island. However, we are still many turns away from actually taking Alex's capital. Contruction first will allow us to get some cats going. I am nervous that we will not be on Alex fast enough to take his capital without cats.

By the way, one other random thought. I tend to keep most cities going for Dom so that the AI's don't resettle and to hurry my growth towards the land percentage. Of course, this makes money management a big issue due to maint. The nice thing about this scenario, we can raze all but the best cities and let the barbs fill in the open land. E.g. on Alex island... maybe we keep his capital and nothing else (unless he has a wonder or a kickass multi gold city). We move on, barbs fill in and we get closer to the dom limit without big maint.
 
By the way, one other random thought. I tend to keep most cities going for Dom so that the AI's don't resettle and to hurry my growth towards the land percentage. Of course, this makes money management a big issue due to maint. The nice thing about this scenario, we can raze all but the best cities and let the barbs fill in the open land. E.g. on Alex island... maybe we keep his capital and nothing else (unless he has a wonder or a kickass multi gold city). We move on, barbs fill in and we get closer to the dom limit without big maint.

Rubs hands in glee... It'll be interesting to see how may cities the barbs actually settle.... :hmm:
 
I believe peace with any AI will reduce WW, but I don't know this to be a fact. I didn't realize WW was this bad. I think we are going to have to make peace with some AI's or we will stop growing. Not sure with who though. I'd like to keep lush island AI's at war, so I was going to suggest peace with isolated AI's. However, the way barbie is going, maybe she will overcome Qin and we'll end up with a fully settled island. Maybe we should make peace with the lush island AI's with religions, hoping they will war with each other once the barb threat has ended.

Having said all that, as there are few who would even make peace (without us giving up something), we might need to take what we can get..

markh said:
War Weariness starts to kick in.

Cyrus, Tokugawa, Saladin, Izzy won't make peace
Qin, Asoka want Beshbalik for peace
Alex would make peace straight away

I must admit I could see advantages to making peace with the lush island crowd. Our allies already have two cities in the west with one in the east. More cities for our allies would be good as would our allies not continuing to lose units against the AI and bumping up our WW.

IIRC Toku, Izzy & Asoka all have different religions so would hopefully keep going at each other. For me the question would be whether or not making peace helps their research. That said, it does look as though none of the lush island set are interested in peace atm.

Of the rest it sounds as though we should keep up the war against Qin. Since there's no point on letting Alex off the hook, that only leaves Sally. :confused:
 
there's no point on letting Alex off the hook,

Actually, now that I think about it, why not make peace with Alex? Sounds like he is willing, might get a war weariness reduction. We aren't ready to attack yet, let's make peace. We can always backstab him later. :evil:

PS... did I ever mention I hate Alex? :mischief: Backstabbing Alex = happy Hawk.
 
PS... did I ever mention I hate Alex? :mischief: Backstabbing Alex = happy Hawk.

Equally his is the only land our barb allies have failed to map in any significant detail. :rolleyes: This doesn't mean we shouldn't make peace with him to indulge The-Hawk's pleasure in backstabbing him. However perhaps it should make us wonder why he's so keen for peace. :hmm:

Maybe we should prioritise galleys a bit more to scout his land?

I strongly suspect that it's the lush island crowd that's generating most, if not all, of our WW. If so then they should be our priority for peace. It'll keep mark happy when we backstab Izzy if nobody else. :lol:

Btw I think that's my 1000'th post. :) Better late than never. :D
 
I think maybe I only played 19, sort of lost count. Anyhow:

Turn 0 (850 BC)

  • Settle Old Sarai, start obelisk. This creates a net -5 commerce, drop research to 60%.
  • Switch capital from Axe to Barracks. I think since we get 1/2 price barracks we should build them in all cities that will be producing land forces.
  • Notice that Alex still only has one city. I suspect he is on a tiny island to himself, and the bit of land we see to the SE is a separate island.
  • Make peace with Alex, no change to WW :( .

Turn 3 (805 BC)

  • Oracle built somewhere, send worker at Karakorum to the SE to help down there. Not much more to do in the capital since WW is getting so bad.

Turn 4 (790 BC)

  • Barbs have come very close to capturing Edo... but continue their stupid play (a steady stream of single units). That archer in Edo will prolly end up at level 20.

Turn 5 (775 BC)

  • Sailing finished. I almost took a break here to talk to the team about the possibility of IW next. A couple of cities really could use some jungle clearing. We need to get those jungle hills mined so we can start producing in earnest. However, after a long internal debate, I decide to stick with the original plan. WW will keep those cities from growing. In most cases, there are tiles to work (e.g. grassland forests) for the time being. So: Sailing -> Math

Turn 6 (760 BC)

  • Beshbalik obelisk -> galley

Turn 7 (745 BC)

  • Turfan: workboat -> galley
  • Barb city of Kushans is in jeopardy. Two Cyrus and two Asoka units attacking three archers. Try to make peace, neither will.

Turn 8 (730 BC)

  • Kushans survives for now (one wounded archer left)
  • Karakorum: Barracks -> Axe

Turn 9 (715 BC)

  • Kushans falls to Cyrus. War weariness jumps.
  • Ning-Hsai: Axe -> Archer. I want to create some archers to sit in cities and prevent "no protection" sad faces. I gave this axe medic 1, I assume most following troops should have city raider.
  • Karakorum is now -4 and has two unhappy citizens. Whip Axeman to get rid of one of those malcontents.
  • Drop research to 50%.

Turn 10 (700 BC)

  • Karakorum Axe -> Archer.

Turn 13 (655 BC)

  • Ning-hsai now unhappy. Whip archer.
  • Back to 60% research.

Turn 14 (640 BC)

  • Karakorum: Archer -> Axe. Move archer toward SE towns.
  • Ning-hsai: Archer -> Axe. Fortify archer here, start to move the medic axeman to SE.
  • Turfan expands, work fish.

Turn 15 (625 BC)

  • Alex founds his second city to our SE.

Turn 17 (595 BC)

  • Finish a mine near Old Sarai so that it can build obelisk quicker after pop increase.
  • Start quarrying stone.

Turn 18 (580 BC)

  • We discover Horseback riding. Guess the barbies were working on it. Can you say "Keshik"??? Sure you can...
  • Ning-Hsai: Axe -> Keshik

Turn 19 (565 BC)

  • I notice we are now paying 1 gpt for units. Suicide the scout to get that gold back.
  • Not sure why, but war weariness is decreasing. Now at -2 in capital.

End of turnset.


Overall state of affairs:

  • Two chariots and three axes are on their way to Old Sarai. More units being built. Galley is 5 turns away. Old Sarai is 1 turn from obelisk, then 15 turns to bridge.
  • War weariness is not too bad, but nobody will make peace.
  • I would suggest we follow the galley at Beshbalik with one more galley. After the second one, we build a barracks and have Besh start building units.
  • Once the quarry is done, Turfan will be a decent producer. For the time being, Turfan can keep building galleys (no barracks).
  • I notice we can bridge to the eastern side of lush island. However, this will require us to build a city in the jungles on the western part of our island. Therefore, this does not seem like a good option.
  • I also notice that the western side of lush island is largly uninhabited. Great opportunity to build a foothold. So, I think we stay the course and go to lush island via Alex.
  • I think we are about 20 turns from DOW on Alex.
 
Oooo... do I get to do this part now?

Sam - UP :D
drhirsch - on deck
Harbourboy
AgedOne
markh
The-Hawk - just played

Pariah (skipped until he reports being available)
 
Got it. :)

I won't be playing before tomorrow evening at the earliest so plenty of time for comments. Looks like I will just be building units for someone else to play with though.

A couple of points I've noticed:

  • Looks like there is a bridge to the N towards Qin. Whilst we're probaly not interested in attacking Qin that doesn't mean he won't be interested in attacking us at some point. Not an immediate problem however.
  • Looks like Alex has founded a city just across from Old Sarai. :rolleyes: Bit of a pain as it would have been convenient to ferry our troops across before declaring on Alex.
 
  • Looks like there is a bridge to the N towards Qin. Whilst we're probaly not interested in attacking Qin that doesn't mean he won't be interested in attacking us at some point. Not an immediate problem however.


I've just had a close look at the save, and I don't think Qin can get through to us - well, not unless he founds a city on the SW corner of his land (between the copper and the cows) - as there are definitely ocean tiles all the way along his side of the fog-of-war.


  • I think we are about 20 turns from DOW on Alex.

Looks like another productive turnset. :goodjob:
I checked the graphs on the save and they make quite pleasant reading.
We've been leaving Alex sadly adrift on the score, and we're catching up to the rest of the pack.
The Power graph is even better. We've suddenly screamed up from last place to 4th in a very short space of time. In particular, we're well ahead of poor little Alex on power. :D

I noticed that we have some of our Barb friends on Alex's island. However, they seem transfixed like rabbits in the headlights and won't move from the village they're protecting. Don't they realise they would be more help to us by abandoning the village and spying out the rest of the island for us. The greater good, and all that. (Next time we're teamed with barbarians, we set up CIV schools for them before we start)
 
Nice turns. :goodjob:

At least the barbs knew what they had to do to give us our UU. :lol: I like that. Pity we are playing vanilla, so no stables.

@Harbourboy: yes, let's do 10 turns / set now.
 
I noticed that we have some of our Barb friends on Alex's island. However, they seem transfixed like rabbits in the headlights and won't move from the village they're protecting.

Bear in mind that we made peace with Alex during The-Hawk's turn. :) Mind you I agree it would have helped if they could scout out the bits of land that Alex doesn't control...
 
Bear in mind that we made peace with Alex during The-Hawk's turn. :) Mind you I agree it would have helped if they could scout out the bits of land that Alex doesn't control...

Actually that brings a small thought to my mind.
When we (and the Barbs) have made peace with an AI, then presumably the AI can still walk into huts - but can do it while sharing the tile with the barbs!

If that's the case, then why is the barb bothering to stay on the hut?

Also... what if the AI popped the hut to reveal 'hostile villagers' - who then proceed to stand by and act friendly??!
 
Top Bottom