Informal: DG VI Version

Choose one.

  • Total voters
    38
Gres said:
Well, I am new to DG so my say carries little wait, but I believe that vanilla should be used because the pros out weigh the cons. How would you feel if you couldn't have complete participation because you were economically handicapped? I have conquests, though I still feel for those who don't. My vote is for vanilla. :)
BTW, Nice to meet you all. :goodjob:
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Nice to meet you too. Welcome to the Demogame and to CFC. Your say carries as much weight as anyone, and that is not just because I agree with you. :)

BTW, I think you are coming in a great point to make a difference. It is likely that DG5 will be finished within the next couple weeks (unless UN vote is tied). This can give you a chance to participate in the discussions about the ground rules for DG6. I didn't get involved until Term 3 in this DG. It can be fun. Speak (well write) you mind. It will gain you respect.
 
Gres said:
Well, I am new to DG so my say carries little wait, but I believe that vanilla should be used because the pros out weigh the cons. How would you feel if you couldn't have complete participation because you were economically handicapped? I have conquests, though I still feel for those who don't. My vote is for vanilla. :)
BTW, Nice to meet you all. :goodjob:
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First: welcome Gres.

As Moth pointed out; every voice is treated equal in the demogame. Yours carries as much weight as mine.

You raise a good point; participation in a Conquests demogame. I am, together with Eyrei and Chieftess, moderator of this section of the CFC forum. I see it as my task to make the DemoGame as playable as possible for all. Thus I have thought about the problem you raise. I do not want to stick with Vanilla for the DG forever, as Conquest is now the standard, but I also do not want to block non-Conquests players from playing. So there is a balance to be found.

I think it is possible to play a demogame on conquest in which members who do not own conquests can still fully participate. If that is possible, would that remove the blockade of -finally- stepping up to conquests ?
 
Ginger_Ale said:
To blackheart and Black_Hole: I doubt there will be another patch, like blackheart said (though Infogrames nor Atari make the patches - that's Firaxis' job, they write the code). While the patches do work, it would be perfect if the games came perfect, yes, but nothing is perfect. And Civ3 didn't get patches because people complained. They got them because the games needed them. ;)
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Infogrames (now calling themselves Atari) has the hold on the license and on the funding for the patch. So no more money from Atari = no patch.
 
Hi everyone :) Thanx for the warm welcome. I have been eyeing DG for a little while and have planned to be active in DG VI :cool:

Moving on,
Rik Meleet said:
I think it is possible to play a demogame on conquest in which members who do not own conquests can still fully participate. If that is possible, would that remove the blockade of -finally- stepping up to conquests ?
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Of course it would be fine if people w/o conquests could fully participate but you did not state how this is possible. Did I miss something?

I feel I should state this however: I don't think moving to conquests is a totally bad idea. I do see why some people would want that change but I am worried that it is unfair to non-conquest owners. Hence, if one for the change can convince me that non-conquest owners will be able to participate at a level which is comparable to conquest players then I am OK.

Those who are against the change: What say you to all the reasons for the change? How do you propose to keep people interested in DG and all the other "pros"?
I am an open person and see both sides of the argument. I fail to see, however, how each side addresses the other side... :cool:

I write to much... :eek:
 
Welcome Gres.

I don't think you write too much. You've raised an important issue. Raising important issues and addressing them is a major problem in the DG world. We need more people like you to ask those questions and WE need to start answering them.

I'm a diehard Vanilla owner from way back. I pre-ordered it. I actually went comatose one day playing Civ1 and stayed that way till Civ2 came out. THEN I became addicted. Civ2 was the bomb for me. High speed Civ2 was my game. But I was dissappointed when Civ3 came out. I stayed that way till I found the Demogame. Like 40J says, the Demogame was the best thing that ever happened to Civ3. This is my fifth Demogame.

DG1, 2, and 3 were great games, no bout a doubt it. DG4 had too many problems - the only things good I remember from that game really were that 40J came back and Furiey was President. Other than that it was fairly bland. But I liked it anyway. I liked DG5 also. It allowed me to once again explore the role of Mayor, which is unbelievably staisfying. I also enjoy being part of the Judiciary and the ruleset. All this has been done on Vanilla and allowed me to experience the greatness of Demogaming. :thumbsup:

But the year is now 2005. It's time to upgrade the game. Our DG population is mostly new players who own the state of the art - C3C. Old timers like me need to go find a rockin' chair to add a little excitement to our Vanilla playin'. Vanilla is perfect for the Demogame. I bet C3C will be perfect also. Only, from what I hear, C3C is the way Vanilla SHOULD have been. (Although I hear it cheats just as much, if not more. ;) )

I feel I am a progressive kind of person and although I will miss the game, I feel it is time for the Demogame to progress. Use the features, bring in the people currently buying Civilization, develop new strategies, keep the fire alive. Move on to C3C.
 
Cyc said:
Welcome Gres.

I don't think you write too much. You've raised an important issue. Raising important issues and addressing them is a major problem in the DG world. We need more people like you to ask those questions and WE need to start answering them.

I'm a diehard Vanilla owner from way back. I pre-ordered it. I actually went comatose one day playing Civ1 and stayed that way till Civ2 came out. THEN I became addicted. Civ2 was the bomb for me. High speed Civ2 was my game. But I was dissappointed when Civ3 came out. I stayed that way till I found the Demogame. Like 40J says, the Demogame was the best thing that ever happened to Civ3. This is my fifth Demogame.

DG1, 2, and 3 were great games, no bout a doubt it. DG4 had too many problems - the only things good I remember from that game really were that 40J came back and Furiey was President. Other than that it was fairly bland. But I liked it anyway. I liked DG5 also. It allowed me to once again explore the role of Mayor, which is unbelievably staisfying. I also enjoy being part of the Judiciary and the ruleset. All this has been done on Vanilla and allowed me to experience the greatness of Demogaming. :thumbsup:

But the year is now 2005. It's time to upgrade the game. Our DG population is mostly new players who own the state of the art - C3C. Old timers like me need to go find a rockin' chair to add a little excitement to our Vanilla playin'. Vanilla is perfect for the Demogame. I bet C3C will be perfect also. Only, from what I hear, C3C is the way Vanilla SHOULD have been. (Although I hear it cheats just as much, if not more. ;) )

I feel I am a progressive kind of person and although I will miss the game, I feel it is time for the Demogame to progress. Use the features, bring in the people currently buying Civilization, develop new strategies, keep the fire alive. Move on to C3C.
Click to expand...
you can find C3C for 10-15 dollars at lots of places ;) even though i know you are against more video games, think of it not as a video game but as a tool to help the demogame(we still need you)
 
Gres said:
Hi everyone :) Thanx for the warm welcome. I have been eyeing DG for a little while and have planned to be active in DG VI :cool:

Moving on,


Of course it would be fine if people w/o conquests could fully participate but you did not state how this is possible. Did I miss something?

I feel I should state this however: I don't think moving to conquests is a totally bad idea. I do see why some people would want that change but I am worried that it is unfair to non-conquest owners. Hence, if one for the change can convince me that non-conquest owners will be able to participate at a level which is comparable to conquest players then I am OK.

Those who are against the change: What say you to all the reasons for the change? How do you propose to keep people interested in DG and all the other "pros"?
I am an open person and see both sides of the argument. I fail to see, however, how each side addresses the other side... :cool:

I write to much... :eek:
Click to expand...
in an ideal government, you wouldnt have to even open the save to find out wahts going on. For example the science minister would have lots of info posted on how fast we are getting techs, that techs we just got, etc. The military advisor should post how the military campaigns are going, so you can make educated decisions without opening the save. Also fully participating wouldnt be possible, as the only office you could hold is the judiciary, but you can be a normal citizen. And maybe one day everyone will get conquests and all of this other good stuff will happen ;)

And dont worry about writing too much, that is Provolution's job ;)
 
There is at least one proposal [it happens to be mine :cool:] which has several government positions who wouldn't have to open the save if other people are doing their jobs right. This proposal would divide the work among strategic and tactical decision making, and have some positions with the job of making sure that full information is posted in the forum. The strategic decision makers only need to know a high level overview and don't necessarily need to have access to the game itself. We could even split the jobs of President and DP, making the President's job to organize the DP activities and optionally be a player. To compensate, the President's role needs to be expanded to include coordinating strategic decisions of the ministers. Hopefully this would serve to keep those without Conquests (for whatever reason) active in the democracy.
 
I still think it would be better to use the GOTM packs with vanilla Civ III for the demogame. I especially think so if it means the demogame loses Cyc's participation. There are promises that the game will be set up so one does not have to view the save to participate but I truly feel these will end up being empty promises. I can see many of us (maybe even myself) buying Conquests now because being able to use it for the demogame (in addition to the other reasons already there) make it something worth getting now. Then who will worry about those who can't look at the save? They will be forgotten once more.

It is not only those who do not have access to Conquests. Some can only get on-line at work where they can't play. Some (even with access to conquests) just don't have time to look at the save (or be at the chat) all the time but still want to be in on discussions and decisions. These people have been ignored for a long time leading to reduced participation in the demogames.

I understand the desire to get away from vanilla Civ. But this can be achieved by using the GOTM packs. Why not try DG6 with these packs and work out the fundamentals of participation without having to look at the save. Then if the latter is successful we can bring that system forward to DG7 and use conquests then.
 
donsig said:
There are promises that the game will be set up so one does not have to view the save to participate but I truly feel these will end up being empty promises.
Click to expand...

I'm trying to lead by example by making sure my office has all the relevant information posted. Will you join me in this endeavor? :D An army of people trying to make a change are far more effective than one lonely voice in the wilderness...
 
I think we should build into the constitution that leaders who can open the save must include updates with the relavent changes. This includes the president. We also need to build in that the DP and/or president upon request from any citizen or leader without the ability to open the save is responsible for providing these updates (either directly or indirectly). This allows someone without C3C to run for any position except DP. If the president cannot load the save himself then he will need to appoint a VP who can load the save and make the DP responsible. Leaders should post in their government threads whether or not they can open the saves (or in the case of RL interferences, on what schedule can they open the saves).

The legal wording will need a lot of work, but this can make sure that those who only have access to the forums can get all needed info (and if not then there is grounds for a CC).
 
Hmmm, No, I disagree that full participation is possible W/o being able to load the game. It simply is not the same. Looking at at tables and facts on a page as oppose to looking at the data yourself is not the same. Perhaps it is technically the same but it takes some of the fun out of the experience in my opinion. It is like playing a faceless game or somethin.

Here is how it looks. The issue is a big one (obvious). The threads on it seems to show that more people are for the change than against it. However, there are still a good many people against the change. I think there are enough people against the change to try and compromise, find a middle ground. I think the answer is a varient not a complete change to C3C. A mod that adds the spice that people who want the change are loking for. A mod that will not alienate those without C3C though. Seems good. Are there any problems with this solution?!!? HUH?! WEll?! Honestly, it seems like a good one.
I ofcourse did not come up with that solution and do not claim to have. I did forget who proposed it though :D
Um, Black Hole is testing a mod I think. I will look in to it as well and give some feed back.
Now lets all have a group hug! C'mon. No? Fine, B that way... :mischief:
 
While it is possible (look at Term 6 - Foreign Affairs or even the Hairando Province threads) to have people know almost all data about a given part of the game, can we really force it upon leaders to make it mandatory if we play C3C and decide we need to make it so that everyone can 'participate' even without Conquests? Then a 2-hour a week governor position could turn into a longer amount of (unnecessary?) time.
 
So, you are saying that we shouldn't change to C3C because it would require leaders to post all information making there job longer and harder?
Sorry Im just a little confused.
I don't think we need to make it so EVERYONE can fully participate but I think that changing it so that less people can participate is a problem.
Ya
 
If Demogame 6 is C3C, then I'll play. If it's vanilla, then I won't even lurk. Personally, I'd like RaR, but I realize that's not everyone's preference.
 
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