Nah, he wouldn't trade anything with me. Sharing religion helps a lot though. At the moment I have +5 religion, +2 open borders and -1 close borders modifiers. After he became pleased I did a sheep vs deer trade, that's about it. It's all for nothing though, if he keeps pulling away like he's doing atm. Obviously I'd rather see him beaten to a pulp as an enemy than cruising to victory as a friend. ^^
Clash of War(Peace)mongers on Deity - BTS
- Thread starter ABigCivFan
- Start date
That might work, worth a try.
Not entirely sure what you mean, but did you offer the exact same resource both times or just the same type? Cuz they give less if they have it already (but they will still accept extras now, don't think it was like this before).
If it's not this, give a concrete example.
Unconquered Sun
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 1,462
I check all possible resource trades every few turns, lux, health, strategic. The results I get are very unusual. Hannibal and Boudica didn't agree on 1 for 1, ever, and mind you their empires are larger than mine.
S-dude didn't agree on 1 for 1 also, but at least he pays well in gold, largest empire and all.
S-dude didn't agree on 1 for 1 also, but at least he pays well in gold, largest empire and all.
Ah, ok.
Personally I didn't get a single trade in, ever, not even for gold or as a gift - until Hannibal in the late ADs. Everything was marked in red, so I thought DoW was coming close. I'm pretty sure they lacked the resources too, guess the deity AI hates my guts. It's like a stacked world of Tokugawa's! ^^
Personally I didn't get a single trade in, ever, not even for gold or as a gift - until Hannibal in the late ADs. Everything was marked in red, so I thought DoW was coming close. I'm pretty sure they lacked the resources too, guess the deity AI hates my guts. It's like a stacked world of Tokugawa's! ^^
ABigCivFan
Emperor
I noticed some changes about trading too. Now the AIs are very stingy about mutiple item trades, I can only do 1-1 trades most of the time, I i want 2 of their resources, they will want 5-8 of mine. I guess this was programmed to reduce the "circular" trade exploit human do well. (i.e. I trade my only copper with AI1 for his Iron, then trade this Iron to AI2 for copper+Corn).
Sometimes AIs pop in to propose a trade, i normally take it.
Sometimes AIs pop in to propose a trade, i normally take it.
Guess I could upload my save as well in case anyone wants a closer look at the action. Only 7 turns for researching Rifling in 1200 AD without representation and not a single cottage! Also got a +3 relations event with Hannibal just recently, I took it for some reason eventhough I was planning on going to war. Hopefully it won't go away any time soon or at DoW. Bagged Chemistry from Boudica giving R. Parts+world map+190 gold. Hannibal's got riflemen already though. I guess Constitution (representation) is next on my tech list.
Save attached.
Save attached.
ABigCivFan
Emperor
It will be very very cool if you guys are able to tech to Assembly line/Industrialism for our UB and Panzers, when these things are one line our chances are much better followed by immediate war with Hannibal.
If possible, get Boudica busy with Kehmer guy as they already hate each other, they make a real nice couple, i have my money on the Khmer guy though
Also, Space is probably the only possible winning condition for us..
If possible, get Boudica busy with Kehmer guy as they already hate each other, they make a real nice couple, i have my money on the Khmer guy though
Also, Space is probably the only possible winning condition for us..
That UB and UU might just be the light at the end of the tunnel indeed! 
This game illustrates why I usually play on immortal though. It's a lot fun to play an overwhelming deity challenge every once in a while (and win some/lose some), but for me it feels so passive and luck-dependant. On immortal I can go to war and make my fortune in a more active way, like the last clash with toku (although that one felt a little easier than my average immortal game for some reason), while on deity I feel so weak and stuck camping. Then again it could just be my game plan who needs tweaking on deity as well as my possibly too high of a respect for the AI bonuses. I'm afraid to make my move at any time, while on immortal I'd see an opening. I guess the AI is still as stupid as on immortal though, so maybe I just need to work up my confidence and everything will turn out better. Hopefully I'll find a solution for more aggressive deity play during this thread. *crosses fingers*
If/when I lose this one I will start over and play more aggressively, possibly using your forward-hill city-settling. Even if I lose it should be a lot of fun.
This game illustrates why I usually play on immortal though. It's a lot fun to play an overwhelming deity challenge every once in a while (and win some/lose some), but for me it feels so passive and luck-dependant. On immortal I can go to war and make my fortune in a more active way, like the last clash with toku (although that one felt a little easier than my average immortal game for some reason), while on deity I feel so weak and stuck camping. Then again it could just be my game plan who needs tweaking on deity as well as my possibly too high of a respect for the AI bonuses. I'm afraid to make my move at any time, while on immortal I'd see an opening. I guess the AI is still as stupid as on immortal though, so maybe I just need to work up my confidence and everything will turn out better. Hopefully I'll find a solution for more aggressive deity play during this thread. *crosses fingers*
If/when I lose this one I will start over and play more aggressively, possibly using your forward-hill city-settling. Even if I lose it should be a lot of fun.
Monkeyfinger
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2006
- Messages
- 2,002
What happened to the AI's resource trading behavior is a bug wherein they fail to red out resources they already have. They still have the same behavior when it comes to trading for resources that they lack, but they've stopped being able to only ask for those resources. They value resources they already have really low, so if you unknowingly offer them such a resource they will mercilessly gouge you.
The root of this bug was identified in the code and fixed in an unofficial patch within like 24 hours of 3.13's release, then almost all mention of the bug died out, so I can't really blame you for having missed the whole thing.
The root of this bug was identified in the code and fixed in an unofficial patch within like 24 hours of 3.13's release, then almost all mention of the bug died out, so I can't really blame you for having missed the whole thing.
VirusMonster
Quechua General
I would say forts act as cities with the new patch. You might get away with a Fort after discovering mathematics, but I guess since you can't build walls on a fort, you are probably better with a city.
VirusMonster
Quechua General
While I appreciate you guys trying to beat the Deity with custom leaders and custom enemies, I strongly suggest you try to customize map and race choices. It will make your life much easier.
Firstly, no matter which leader you are going to play, the real difficulty of deity comes from the fact the AI has too many bonuses and 2 settlers. You need to think of ways to limit AI growth.
For example, your tactic of blocking AI expansion with a far-away city works great, because it buys you time.
Now, a second trick is the following:
Since your strategy depends greatly on the AIs hitting each other and not you, then why don't you start with the maximum number of AIs possible under the HOF rules? For Standard map size, it is 10.
In my last Immortal game, I had 10 AIs to start with and very few of them had enough land at start to build more than 3 cities. I was able to settle my first 3 cities and attack the closest enemy who had no Iron. With increased land size compared to the AI empires, I was the score leader and when you are the score leader things become easier, because AI would rather go to war with someone else.
Here is the most important map considerations when playing the deity.
- put max number of available AIs to the map (10 for standard size under HOF rules)
- no barbarians (barbarians only make Deity harder for the human player, land will be settled very quickly anyway and just when you are about to settle one of the few remaining pieces of land, you don't want to fight a barbarian for the city location)
- no aggressive or charismatic leaders (I think you are trying it too hard for now, try beating more peaceful leaders first) I have read the Byzantine Deity guide btw, which version was it played on? 3.13?
- you can try the Boreal or RainForest map to limit AI expanding power early game. RainForest map is full of jungles and AI won't be able to expand before IW. Boreal is mainly Tundra and AI won't have the food to grow its cities.
- If you play pangea, go for temperate as it will put almost all possible resource types on the map. Then, when you have the largest empire with 6-9 cities after you have conquered 2 civilizations, you will gain control of huge number of resources, because:
1) you have the largest land and have most resources
2) you can trade them for anything you need
So the AIs happiness and health bonuses will be balanced out by the fact you control more resources.
After you control 8-9 cities, bribe aggressively and start building up. You should be score leader at this point and start catching up on the tech race.
Best leader for this strategy would be Ceaser of the Rome. Regenerate map until you have 2 of the gold, silver or gem resources in city radius and you won't have to depend on tech popup from huts. Initial goal is to settle a total of 3 cities and hook up Iron. Steal workers as required.
Firstly, no matter which leader you are going to play, the real difficulty of deity comes from the fact the AI has too many bonuses and 2 settlers. You need to think of ways to limit AI growth.
For example, your tactic of blocking AI expansion with a far-away city works great, because it buys you time.
Now, a second trick is the following:
Since your strategy depends greatly on the AIs hitting each other and not you, then why don't you start with the maximum number of AIs possible under the HOF rules? For Standard map size, it is 10.
In my last Immortal game, I had 10 AIs to start with and very few of them had enough land at start to build more than 3 cities. I was able to settle my first 3 cities and attack the closest enemy who had no Iron. With increased land size compared to the AI empires, I was the score leader and when you are the score leader things become easier, because AI would rather go to war with someone else.
Here is the most important map considerations when playing the deity.
- put max number of available AIs to the map (10 for standard size under HOF rules)
- no barbarians (barbarians only make Deity harder for the human player, land will be settled very quickly anyway and just when you are about to settle one of the few remaining pieces of land, you don't want to fight a barbarian for the city location)
- no aggressive or charismatic leaders (I think you are trying it too hard for now, try beating more peaceful leaders first) I have read the Byzantine Deity guide btw, which version was it played on? 3.13?
- you can try the Boreal or RainForest map to limit AI expanding power early game. RainForest map is full of jungles and AI won't be able to expand before IW. Boreal is mainly Tundra and AI won't have the food to grow its cities.
- If you play pangea, go for temperate as it will put almost all possible resource types on the map. Then, when you have the largest empire with 6-9 cities after you have conquered 2 civilizations, you will gain control of huge number of resources, because:
1) you have the largest land and have most resources
2) you can trade them for anything you need
So the AIs happiness and health bonuses will be balanced out by the fact you control more resources.
After you control 8-9 cities, bribe aggressively and start building up. You should be score leader at this point and start catching up on the tech race.
Best leader for this strategy would be Ceaser of the Rome. Regenerate map until you have 2 of the gold, silver or gem resources in city radius and you won't have to depend on tech popup from huts. Initial goal is to settle a total of 3 cities and hook up Iron. Steal workers as required.
Unconquered Sun
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 1,462
Rigging games HOF-handholding-cheater style is not my style. I play real Deity.
The Byz guide was done on 3.0 up to 1400AD. I'll finish it on 3.13.
This new patch is very buggy. The resource thing sure held my game. Also, the deity AIs seem more likely to support large (40-60 unit) SoDs. This is a relapse back to Warlords times when I've had to destroy SoDs of 200 in the modern age. The good thing about so much military is deity is challenging once again, the bad thing is we're playing Fred, no early UU, no combat trait.
obsolete
Deity
Where is the fun in a cheated game? Deity wouldn't be deity...
ABigCivFan
Emperor
Great wall is truly helpful in this game, without it, the barbs constantly harrassed my capital, pillaging resourecs and etc.
I re-played until 600AD, got a lot better results when i did some early cottaging in capital and good timeing growing 3 GS.
Since the happy cap was low, it was a very good idea to cottage those Floods and Spice. combined with Academy and Scientist specialist, the capital was generating some major beakers. I was able to trade many techs with AIs to speed up the whole research pace.
475BC:
I did settle the south city on the Gold hill, have high hopes for it later to hold off large AI stacks.
300BC: Civic change, took 2 turns
425AD:
Capital, rushing to Liberalism, the Kehmer guy is very close.
560AD:
1 Turn to Liberalism, taking Printing Press as free tech. Did not skip any major tech along the way, a lot by trading.
The relationship is now much better this game, Jewish spread to Berlin early and i was able to join the club, soon Hannibal is pleased the the other Friendly.
Hannibal is expanding at amazing rate, same with the Kehmer guy, i bearly had any hammer to spare for any military. Had OR runing, building lost religion buildings. good Kehmer guy built AP and am able to gain 4 more hammers per city.
At 600AD: I am building lots longbows both to raise happy cap and for defenses. Hope to stay alive until our UU and UB on line. Munich and Hamburg are planned for Military cities they will be back bone of our Panzer Factories. Hamburg building Moai Statues now. Will put a castle in all these cities for trade route and defenses.
A little late to settle the 6th city, the Oxford will be delayed. Will settle the Marble/Fur city next and prob will put NE in Capital (no better GP farm) and HE in Munich.
I re-played until 600AD, got a lot better results when i did some early cottaging in capital and good timeing growing 3 GS.
Since the happy cap was low, it was a very good idea to cottage those Floods and Spice. combined with Academy and Scientist specialist, the capital was generating some major beakers. I was able to trade many techs with AIs to speed up the whole research pace.
475BC:
I did settle the south city on the Gold hill, have high hopes for it later to hold off large AI stacks.
300BC: Civic change, took 2 turns
425AD:
Capital, rushing to Liberalism, the Kehmer guy is very close.
560AD:
1 Turn to Liberalism, taking Printing Press as free tech. Did not skip any major tech along the way, a lot by trading.
The relationship is now much better this game, Jewish spread to Berlin early and i was able to join the club, soon Hannibal is pleased the the other Friendly.
Hannibal is expanding at amazing rate, same with the Kehmer guy, i bearly had any hammer to spare for any military. Had OR runing, building lost religion buildings. good Kehmer guy built AP and am able to gain 4 more hammers per city.
At 600AD: I am building lots longbows both to raise happy cap and for defenses. Hope to stay alive until our UU and UB on line. Munich and Hamburg are planned for Military cities they will be back bone of our Panzer Factories. Hamburg building Moai Statues now. Will put a castle in all these cities for trade route and defenses.
A little late to settle the 6th city, the Oxford will be delayed. Will settle the Marble/Fur city next and prob will put NE in Capital (no better GP farm) and HE in Munich.
Wow! Settled on plains gold, you're crazy!
If i didn't know better I'd think it was the deity AI playing in your place.
Really, really looking forward to seeing how that plays out for you.
And as to the points brought up by Virusmonster I agree with Obsolete and Unconquered Sun. I/We aren't looking for some diploma about beating a (rigged) deity game, it's suppose to be the real thing - the real difficulty. If this means losing then so be it.
If i didn't know better I'd think it was the deity AI playing in your place.
Really, really looking forward to seeing how that plays out for you.
And as to the points brought up by Virusmonster I agree with Obsolete and Unconquered Sun. I/We aren't looking for some diploma about beating a (rigged) deity game, it's suppose to be the real thing - the real difficulty. If this means losing then so be it.
ABigCivFan
Emperor
Wow! Settled on plains gold, you're crazy!
If i didn't know better I'd think it was the deity AI playing in your place.
Really, really looking forward to seeing how that plays out for you.
And as to the points brought up by Virusmonster I agree with Obsolete and Unconquered Sun. I/We aren't looking for some diploma about beating a (rigged) deity game, it's suppose to be the real thing - the real difficulty. If this means losing then so be it.
It is Gold Plain Hill. Will stuff in Wall/Castle/Best CG and Drill defenders + flanking mounted in later and hope they come for it. This is the forward strong hold I was talking about. dont know if it work though.
What I meant was that it wasn't a desert hill (less useful although still good), but one of the best tiles in the game, and also missing out on the other nearby resources. That's what makes this move so interesting. Clearly a novelty move, it just looks so silly surrounded by Carthage land on all fronts. I have done aggressive settling for sneaky defense before, but nothing like that, it's just on a different (ingenious?) level. *in awe*
Monkeyfinger
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2006
- Messages
- 2,002
I had that on Monarch with aggressive AI off... yay for nukes.
Granted, it was Shaka.
ABigCivFan
Emperor
I hope the gold will lure them to concentrate on this city later. I saw Hannibal's settler near when i settled this city so I know he will settle right inside the gap between my core cities and this gold hill city.
When the war starts later, I hope this city will really work to reduce the pressure on my core cities by holding off the largest AI SODs. My main cities will be able to produce strong offensive units quickly and overrun Hannibal's cities next to my core cities. So it looks like a "Go" game where I have a city being surrounded by Hannibal but he has some cities being surrounded by me.
The difference is I should be able to take down his cities easily since they are culture pushed to the city center tile but not my strong hold. Also will railroad to this city so reinforcements can come in every turn.
to concentrate on this city later. I saw Hannibal's settler near when i settled this city so I know he will settle right inside the gap between my core cities and this gold hill city.When the war starts later, I hope this city will really work to reduce the pressure on my core cities by holding off the largest AI SODs. My main cities will be able to produce strong offensive units quickly and overrun Hannibal's cities next to my core cities. So it looks like a "Go" game where I have a city being surrounded by Hannibal but he has some cities being surrounded by me.
The difference is I should be able to take down his cities easily since they are culture pushed to the city center tile but not my strong hold. Also will railroad to this city so reinforcements can come in every turn.
One more thing: when are you planning on declaring war on Hannibal? Which unit choice as defenders/attackers? Unless you're just trying to hold on for the UB/UU and having that city as a back-up in case he won't let you in peace until then.
