You know the combat system is FUBAR when...

I need to add that Civilization III still has one of the most fascinating diplomatic models ever attempted in a TBS. In many ways, the open trade table where you can actively haggle with the AI for every last scrap of gold, or tradeable item (maps, techs, contacts, resources, luxuries) is still BETTER than what we have in Civ4. The whole concept of a gpt deal also means you can create/mimmick financial instruments in the game. 180 gold lump sum for 10gpt per turn = a 180 gold loan with a 20 gold interest! And there are various combinations to work with as well.

Going back on topic, the fetish over 'historical accuracy' in this discussion is misinformed. Civ uses history to inform its design. For example the Civilizations, unit names, city names and general design of each civ is informed by history. But civilization is not a history simulation or even a government simulation, its a EMPIRE simulator in the tradition of Empire.
 
I don't feel like spending the time to repeat what I've and many others have complained about in detail like before. If you are really that interested, dredge up a few of the old threads on this from a few years ago and read them over.

Nah. I'm more inclined just to say "baloney" and move on. If you can't be bothered to defend your claim, then your claim isn't worth anything.
 
Nah. I'm more inclined just to say "baloney" and move on. If you can't be bothered to defend your claim, then your claim isn't worth anything.

Me, too. But my curiosity is piqued. Can you give us some kind of broad information meisen, or some links to these old threads that are so well established?


PS. Good post, Marsden!

Thanks! :thumbsup:
 
meisen, I think you have a strong bias that is clouding your perception here and you're taking little bits and pieces of inconsistencies in the game as absolute proof to a claim which you still can't prove. It's just an accusation.

It's already been noted that gameplay and balance comes before historical accuracy. It really is that simple. No claim was ever made that Civilizaiton games are historically accurate or attempt to recreate history. The advertising only goads players into this idea of ruling empires past and present and offer then a chance to conquer the world.

You're incessant harping on absolute historical accuracy has no real basis other than the fact that Civ isn't the game for you, in which case why do you post here?

And lastly, it is fair for people to ask you to provide argumentation for your accusation. And you still haven't. Wheel>Horse or Horse>Wheel is inconsequential as the first whelled unit is far less threatening than the first horse one. Maybe that's why the Techs got switched around during development to provide game balance. It may have been laid out correctly according to meisan for all we know.

You're clearly not approaching this from a game balance/gamer/game designer/FUN! point of view. I don't want to say you're in the wrong, but I can say that you're not right on this issue of historical accuracy and civilization. Your frame of reference is completely off.
 
dexters

Why don't you submit your application directly to those who make the game. I don't think they look that closely at what we write here and your employment efforts are probably going to waste. ;)

Please don't make this personal meisen. You seem like a great guy. I'm just telling you that you have the wrong frame of reference. I'm defending the developers because you not only accused them of being somehow less intelligent than you are, you attack them unfairly on many points of a battle system that works for what it is (see the lvl 1-5 defender/attacker analogy).

In anycase, i took the time to write a reply, instead of shooting off a quick reply attacking me and accusing me now of applying for Firaxis (I actually did help them test Civ IV) stick to the issues.
 
dexters

Why don't you submit your application directly to those who make the game. I don't think they look that closely at what we write here and your employment efforts are probably going to waste. ;)

Please don't make this personal meisen. You seem like a great guy. I'm just telling you that you have the wrong frame of reference. I'm defending the developers because you not only accused them of being somehow less intelligent than you are, you attack them unfairly on many points of a battle system that works for what it is (see the lvl 1-5 defender/attacker analogy).

In anycase, i took the time to write a reply, so did many others. Don't be defensive. Provide the proof that Firaxis developers are less educated and we can move on. If you can't then just admit you're biased and you won't change your views about this and no one will think the lesser of you.
 
Yes and no. What I refer to is the built-in checks against a run-away civ admitted to by the designers of which diddling with the combat system/results is but one possibilty.

I don't believe this exists. There can also be AI runaways. The problem is cognitive Bias. Soren Johnson, the AI's designer and Civ3 designer tackled this before. In one of his posts here or in poly (and it may have also been on a private forum) he admitted that Firaxis' own testers complained about the Spear wins over Tanks results and said the AI cheated.

So Soren sent them a new revision with a decisive human cheat, whereby statistically human players will win more Spear v. Tank fights by default and he got feedback saying the game was 'balanced'.

Soren has also gone out of his way to reiterate that there are minimal checks for who the human player is in the game. As for stacked results against runaways, it is most certainly not in the battle system as it would actually be detrimental to the AI as they can become runaways themselves especially on Emperor and above. The cheats that exist generally has to do with the AI doing something quicker, faster, to compensate for human advantages in city management, trade and economics (hence the AI-AI trade bonus and AI production and unit bonuses on moarch and above)

Edit: Soren Johnson touches on this again in his GDC 2008 conference entitled IA to AI. The focus is his work on Civ IV, but Civ III is mentioned as well as it was the building block to a lot of what went into Civ IV from a AI do's and dont's design perspective. Fun read.
http://www.intrinsicalgorithm.com/IAonAI/2008/02/gdc-2008-soren-johnsons-lecture-on-civ.html

Scroll down to the following section:
Civ 1, 2
Free wonders
Gang up on human (In Civ 1: If year > 1900 and human in lead, declare war on human)

Civ 3, 4
Human-blind diplomacy (Never checks “is human?”)
Information cheats (they DO have info cheats – most of them come down to limited dev. Resources… e.g. fog of war is very expensive)

Information cheats can really backfire on you. E.g. Amphibious Assault Judo using empty port cities in Civ 3. (solved by determining random time for updating the assault target, ignore temporary data such as nearby units.)
 
dexters

Why don't you submit your application directly to those who make the game. I don't think they look that closely at what we write here and your employment efforts are probably going to waste. ;)

Meisen, ease up. I have been doing game design and working with various game companies for 20 plus years. My background is history, emphasis on military and naval, with a 3,000 books or so personal library. I have done consulting work for various US government agencies, plus working for the Marine Corps on various projects during the First Gulf War in 1991. If you want to see what I look like, check out the National Geographic Search for PT-109 video. I am the guy that identifies the wreck, plus talks about the Tokyo Express, and other things.

I have some problems with the historical accuracy of Civilizations, but I still play the game. I have issues with just about every game that I play over historical accuracy, and I play a lot, because I use board games to teach history every summer for a three week period. I am always tampering with the rules, changing them to bring them more in line with what I think that they should be. There is an unavoidable tension between historical accuracy and playability in every game that makes even a pretense at being historical. When I am working for a game on a game design, that is always one of the biggest issues to deal with. The bottom line is that you have to have a product that the average person will buy and play, and then tell his/her friends to buy and play as well. Then you make sure that you give the historical guys the tools to edit the game to their satisfaction, and try to make both camps happy. It is NOT EASY to do. Now that I can do editing in Civ3, I am enjoying the game much more, but the key is that the editor is THERE.

As for some of the historical issues I have with the game.

Numidian Mercenary infantry for Carthage. The Numidian mercenaries used by Carthage were all javelin using light cavalry. The heavy infantry came from the Carthaginian holdings in Spain. Also, no Carthaginian War Elephants. Hannibal used them, and also the Successor Kingdoms to Alexander used them heavily.

Lack of an Assyrian Civilization in the game. The Sumerians never fully took over what was called Mesopotamia and is now Iraq. The Assyrians had one of the largest empires in the Ancient World, and an EXTREMELY GOOD army which helped in getting that empire.

Cleopatra for Egyptian Ruler. Cleopatra's background was Greek, descended from Alexander's general Ptolemy, who took over Egypt following the death of Alexander. It they needed a woman, Hatshepsut or possibly Nefertiti would have been much better choices. Rameses II or Thutmoses III could have been used as well.

Lack of any significant Agricultural improvement beyond Irrigation. There have been at least 3 or 4 major increases in agriculture productivity that are not reflected in the game.

Naval Units and Values. Too extensive to cover in this post.

Combat values of some units verses what they did historically. Again, too extensive to cover in this post.

Some of the matching of Civilization traits seems a bit odd.

Olive oil was one of the mayor items in early international trading, and is included in some of the scenarios. I cannot understand why it is not automatically in the standard game. It is still a major item in international commerce, along with other edible oils.

I hope that this is a sufficiently representative sample for those who ask where historical objections may be. However, I STILL PLAY THE GAME!!!!!
 
For starters, what clued me in to when these developers ended their history education is right at the beginning of the tech tree. They have "wheel" before "horseback riding". ...

...
As for some of the historical issues I have with the game.

Numidian Mercenary infantry for Carthage. The Numidian mercenaries used by Carthage were all javelin using light cavalry. The heavy infantry came from the Carthaginian holdings in Spain. Also, no Carthaginian War Elephants. Hannibal used them, and also the Successor Kingdoms to Alexander used them heavily.

Lack of an Assyrian Civilization in the game. The Sumerians never fully took over what was called Mesopotamia and is now Iraq. The Assyrians had one of the largest empires in the Ancient World, and an EXTREMELY GOOD army which helped in getting that empire.

Cleopatra for Egyptian Ruler. Cleopatra's background was Greek, descended from Alexander's general Ptolemy, who took over Egypt following the death of Alexander. It they needed a woman, Hatshepsut or possibly Nefertiti would have been much better choices. Rameses II or Thutmoses III could have been used as well.

Lack of any significant Agricultural improvement beyond Irrigation. There have been at least 3 or 4 major increases in agriculture productivity that are not reflected in the game.

Naval Units and Values. Too extensive to cover in this post.

Combat values of some units verses what they did historically. Again, too extensive to cover in this post.

Some of the matching of Civilization traits seems a bit odd.

Olive oil was one of the mayor items in early international trading, and is included in some of the scenarios. I cannot understand why it is not automatically in the standard game. It is still a major item in international commerce, along with other edible oils.

I hope that this is a sufficiently representative sample for those who ask where historical objections may be. However, I STILL PLAY THE GAME!!!!!

That's exactly what I was asking, thank you. I like history but I didn't know that about the chariot-horseriding. Also, MAS pointed out Alphabets do NOT predate writing. But historical inacuracies seem to be limited to unit strengths and names and tech tree choices. I understand what your saying now. I always found it strange "the wheel" gives you horses, the advance barely address the invention the wheel at all. I always thought democracy being a prerequisite to "free artistry" (whatever that is) is silly, were there any well established democracies at the time of Shakespeare? How about distilling 3 big ages into just 2 little advances namely you start out with stone axes, discover bronze working and pop you're in the bronze age, discover iron working and pop you're in the iron age. That represented a lot of time, but it's not such a big deal, here. As an aside to that I never research either of those techs, trade for them.

There are others, but liking the game so much, I just discounted them as part of the game. I saw having the female leaders as blatant pc pandering, and the culture is too militarily powerful but these are minor things that didn't stop me from liking the whole.

Interesting to me, most, but certainly not all, of your complaints were already fixed in Civ 2. The combat system was based on 10 hit points so that smoothed out 3 lucky hits in a row, plus there was a fire power ranking so gunpowder units did 2 points per hit as opposed to all doing only 1. I think modern did 3 per hit and battleships were a special that did 4. There was a farmland improvement over irrigation with the discover of refrigeration and building of a supermarket to utilize it. Every civ had a choice of a male or female leader. But there was no culture and no clearly defined borders. Also, if your units were stacked and the best defender lost they all died. If we could keep the look and culture and certain other things from civ 3 with the combat system and some other things from civ2 we'd have a real winner, maybe best game ever!
 
. . . . Numidian Mercenary infantry for Carthage. The Numidian mercenaries used by Carthage were all javelin using light cavalry. The heavy infantry came from the Carthaginian holdings in Spain. . . . .
For you, is the issue here one of graphics or unit stats? If the former, I assume that you've browsed Creation & Customization & the downloads for one more to your liking? There's also a unit request thread down there, so you could ask someone to make one. If the latter, well, you already know how to adjust the stats, so I'll assume you've done so.
 
They have "wheel" before "horseback riding". It used to be thought that chariot use came before horseback riding. By the 1970's this was shown to be bunk, and traces of horseback riding were shown to have predated chariot use by at least 2000 years, possibly 3000 years.

How is this clearly a lack of knowledge? Both of these techs are primarily military in nature in the game. It is pretty clear that the first militarily-significant use of horses was in the pulling of chariots. My understanding of the record (and admittedly, I am no expert) is that there is some evidence of horseback riding in the 3000-3500 BC range, but that there is no clear evidence of military use until the advent of the chariot. Seems like a reasonable design decision to me.

Look at the governments the various civs favor and reject in the editor. That goes beyond ignorant to racist and European-American cultural centric thinking.

Of course it is Euro-American-centric design. Where do you think they are selling the games? Playing to common stereotypes is common practice in marketing. Babes and beer. Your claims of racism are simply out of line.

I don't see much convincing evidence here, although I haven't caught up with the rest of the thread yet.
 
I hope that this is a sufficiently representative sample for those who ask where historical objections may be. However, I STILL PLAY THE GAME!!!!!

That was an excellent post, timerover, and an even better summary. There will always be inaccuracies in any game, as indeed there are in history itself. My point is that the inaccuracies do not necessarily reflect designer ignorance, as meisen had implied. (Or did he state it outright?) Most of the alleged "ignorance" is very much explainable as conscious design decision.

And it is hard to argue that the design decisions were wrong. This game was first released back in 2001 - an eternity ago in computer life cycles - and yet we are still discussing it and it is still for sale.
 
As for some of the historical issues I have with the game.
Lack of an Assyrian Civilization in the game. The Sumerians never fully took over what was called Mesopotamia and is now Iraq. The Assyrians had one of the largest empires in the Ancient World, and an EXTREMELY GOOD army which helped in getting that empire.

All your points are very good, but this is the best one. The Assyrians are as important to the world today as the Greeks, Romans, Chinese and Arabs. Not only did they rule the area for a thousand years, but the violence and ruthlesness with which they did it was passed on to every major civilization in that area. It was evident in the 20th Century Soviet Union and even Iraq, Syria or Iran of today.

The Assyrians redefined "despotism" and took it to new levels of brutality. That it has survived to this very day is indeed a powerful testament to their cultural heritage.
 
All your points are very good, but this is the best one. The Assyrians are as important to the world today as the Greeks, Romans, Chinese and Arabs. Not only did they rule the area for a thousand years, but the violence and ruthlesness with which they did it was passed on to every major civilization in that area. It was evident in the 20th Century Soviet Union and even Iraq, Syria or Iran of today.

The Assyrians redefined "despotism" and took it to new levels of brutality. That it has survived to this very day is indeed a powerful testament to their cultural heritage.

I have seen people call the Assyrians the "Nazis" of the Ancient World. A more accurate assessment would have the Nazis the "Assyrians" of the Modern World. The Assyrian rulers clearly gloried in exactly how much pain and injury they could inflict. Some of the wall reliefs that I have gone over are EXTREMELY GRAPHIC as to the pain inflicted for the enjoyment of the leaders.
 
And where are the jews? A civ that spawned two of the three most influential religions of the world of today. It is said that our Western Civilisation is built on three hills - Acropolis, Capitoleum and Golgata. One of them is missing from civ.

(Other missing, influential civs are the Moghuls, Bulgar and Magyar.)
 
And where are the jews? A civ that spawned two of the three most influential religions of the world of today. It is said that our Western Civilisation is built on three hills - Acropolis, Capitoleum and Golgata. One of them is missing from civ.

(Other missing, influential civs are the Moghuls, Bulgar and Magyar.)

I definitely agree with you there, Pyrrhos, which is why I like to play Turkhan's Test of Time, as they are present in that scenario. I am slowing working away at converting it fully to .biq format, with all of the Wonders and additions. I also need to work on a lot of the unit values.
 
I have seen people call the Assyrians the "Nazis" of the Ancient World. A more accurate assessment would have the Nazis the "Assyrians" of the Modern World. The Assyrian rulers clearly gloried in exactly how much pain and injury they could inflict. Some of the wall reliefs that I have gone over are EXTREMELY GRAPHIC as to the pain inflicted for the enjoyment of the leaders.

I think that might be the reason that they weren't allowed in.:lol:

BTW congratulations on your 1000th post Meisen!:goodjob:
 
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