Is this the beginning of the end for the nuclear power industry?

Do you support the use of nuclear power

  • Yes, everywhere

    Votes: 96 58.9%
  • Only in certain countries safe from earthquakes/terrorism etc.

    Votes: 43 26.4%
  • I'm against all nuclear power

    Votes: 16 9.8%
  • What is nucular power?

    Votes: 8 4.9%

  • Total voters
    163
There's a bunch of reasons why I'm against nuclear power, so I'll list the major ones here:

  • Storage of the waste. There's litterarily a mountain of waste out there now. And no international regulation on ways of safely desposing of it. Building a new plant that would add to that waste seems irresponcible in the extreme. From just a few years to a few million years in disposal horizon.
  • Control. International monitoring of incidents and a solid framework for reacting to a crisis. IAEA is a lapdog of the security council and not the UN as a whole, with no proper mandate to monitor and advice on nuclear incidents. The ongoing situation in Japan is a good example of just how impotent and clueless they are.
  • Dual use problems. The distance between nuclear power and nuclear bombs is quite narrow. Having the infrastructure for one clearly makes most of the job if you want to get nuclear weapons later. Unchecked Nuclear proliferation is also an issue as more nations develop nuclear power.
  • Maintenance. Funding a nuclear industry might be totally different over a few generations. The aging plants are there, but the will and ability to maintain a safe operation is not present anymore.
  • Innocent third parties who're exposed to fallout from waste and incidents. Country A has nuclear power, but countries B through to Z are in danger of suffering the consequenses of a failure to safely dispose of it or operate the plant safely. No other source of electrical power plants has such a huge potential to ruin the day on such a large scale.
  • Finally the truth that radiactive waste is a potential showstopper to civilization. If the fire from a meltdown is fierce enough and the wind direction unfortunate enough we might risk having major metropolitan and agricultural areas/fisheries useless for not just generations but countless of milleniums. If you thought the toxic loans where bad try seeing what happens if Tokyo has to be abandoned and turned into a no-mans land.

Edit:Damnit, mis-clicked and voted for nuclear power everywhere. Guess I'm all for it :P
 
The % of nuclear power worldwide is by far lower than other kinds of power so comparing raw data on accidents makes little sense. In all your viciously propagandistic and wrong data you have of course not mentioned that there is not enough spare water on the planet to cool enough nuclear reactors for nuclear power to become the prominent form of energy. The truth is that the future does not belong to nuclear fission just like the present doesn't, unless fusion is really mastered which currently it isn't, if you of course do not consider movies reality.

Are you being sarcastic with this? I don't get it. Our planet is 2/3 water. How do you think navy ships get their water to cool the reactors? They make it. Pure water can be made from seawater. Yes navy ships put seawater (after run through desalination plant, deionized, treated etc.) into the reactors. The point is in a planet that is 2/3 water, there is no shortage of water. I don't understand this post at all.

anyways, this thread exploded fast since this morning LOL. I'm still trying to catch up, I just had to correct that bad info from page 2. A better argument would be the lack of Uranium. Uranium is not a renewable element to the best of my knowledge. It will run out eventually. I have no idea how much is in the Earth to be mined, or how long it will last, however.
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You try finding coastal land in a suitable location in Australia, let alone more crowded countries, where people are willing to countenance a nuclear power plant and where land isn't already prohibitively expensive to acquire.
 
You claim that coal power is the only alternative to nuclear power and that I have an agenda. Oh please... I'd make comparisons in the appropriate thread and certainly not with a form of energy that is possibly worse than nuclear and already surpassed.

I do recall saying wind, solar, and hydro are all alternatives, just less efficient than nuclear and eventually fusion. If you continue to place words in my mouth based on your ignorance of the nuclear industry then you will only make yourself appear mentally handicapped. You cannot win a debate by ignoring the opposite persons comments. Thanks, go live next to a coal plant, I'll live next to a nuclear power plant, check in for cancer in forty years. :p
 
How are you defining efficiency there, LM? Cost per MW? Thermal efficiency?
 
How are you defining efficiency there, LM? Cost per MW? Thermal efficiency?

Efficiency can be defined in multiple ways. The resources to make a nuclear power facility, including the land and materials used in construction, are, in the end, wholly less than a gigantic wind or solar farm. The energy output from a much smaller facility, over a much longer period of time, is much higher than from the massive farm required to match it. Green energy costs a lot of money, takes a ton of natural resources, including oil products which I believe is simply ridiculous in comparison to those for a nuclear plant. The environmental costs and long term use of facilities make nuclear a much smarter option and it always has been. Agenda driven ecofreaks don't realize they are hurting the planet more by working against it.
 
You try finding coastal land in a suitable location in Australia, let alone more crowded countries, where people are willing to countenance a nuclear power plant and where land isn't already prohibitively expensive to acquire.

good point. We have a similar problem here. No one is ever going to give up their beaches, or beachfront property. So we are stuck relying on rivers for cooling. But it does take a sizable river. The problem with using rivers is the environmentalists complain we warm the water too much affecting fish and other life in the ecosystem.

edit: I did look up Uranium. It looks like we have 85 years of reliable supply left. Maybe more can be found, but let's just assume 85 years. That's not much better than oil (which we might only have 50 or 60 years left). the point is neither are long term solutions. The world will need to learn to live on less energy. I actually believe nuclear fusion is impossible (at least in terms of being efficient and feasible), and wind and solar are limited. We will have to learn to live without energy in the future. that means back to the dark ages.
 
Arwon, you've made a lot of good points as general points but I'm not sure who exactly they were addressing here if it was meant to relate to prior discussion on the thread. Certainly in many places and on many scales other renewables are great investments too. But in just the same way you appear to be ignoring political realities or practical concerns too or are perhaps just not familiar with the US as others may not know much about energy in Australia. Do you consider it more likely that the US will invest tens of billions of dollars in, say, wind power than in nuclear? That from being a "realistic option" there's something else that stands out to you in the US besides more coal? I mean, the possibility that we do nothing at all due to a terribly stupid political climate and face decades of economic and societal problems is of course still there.
 
wind power I consider to be unfeasible too. It shares some problems with nuclear power I mentioned above. People don't want ugly nuke power plants on beaches, and they don't want ugly wind turbines on beaches, or on hills ruining the beauty of the land. Not to mention wind power kills huge numbers of birds.

I truly believe solar is our only hope of getting out of the dark ages I described above. But it will have a huge environmental impact as well. We will need to cover the deserts of the southwest in solar panels which would ruin the desert ecosystems. But it's only desert, so no one really cares. I actually do support putting solar panels all across the mojave and sonaran deserts. I believe all future research should go into making solar energy more efficient and economical.
 
wind power I consider to be unfeasible too. It shares some problems with nuclear power I mentioned above. People don't want ugly nuke power plants on beaches, and they don't want ugly wind turbines on beaches, or on hills ruining the beauty of the land. Not to mention wind power kills huge numbers of birds.

I truly believe solar is our only hope of getting out of the dark ages I described above. But it will have a huge environmental impact as well. We will need to cover the deserts of the southwest in solar panels which would ruin the desert ecosystems. But it's only desert, so no one really cares. I actually do support putting solar panels all across the mojave and sonaran deserts. I believe all future research should go into making solar energy more efficient and economical.

When I was driving from Delaware to Yellowstone in January, we were crossing upstate Indiana at night, headed for Milwaukee. Around 6-7 PM we noticed on the horizon a massive amount of red lights blinking with precision. It was a big ol' wind farm, apparently when done, it will generate a 1000Mw of electricity. It was really impressive.

The catch being it was also huge, spread out among farms. You couldn't power a country like that.

Then future isn't any one source of energy, but perhaps the most important one won't be a source of energy at all, but rather efficient use of it.
 
Earthling: I'm not that familiar with the US, but there's certainly a lot of scope for solar concentration along the lines of what Spain's doing. I believe the largest such plant currently in existence is actually in the Mojave.

I'm not sure what your hydro-electric situation is like, as you do have some very large mountains and rivers but you also have some fairly acute water issues in parts of the country and the risks of climate change exacerbating that.

One key with wind farms, though, is that ordinary land-owners can get in on the action and make some money from them. Anywhere there's private land ownership and wind, there's potential for that. Texas actually has the world's largest single wind farm currently, organised by a cotton farmer and paying dividends to several hundred landowners. You try showing me small businesses and remote communities making money off nuclear power.

I think the real problem is people simply don't understand how much energy can actually be gotten from these sources. To replace, say, a 1000MW coal power plant which will have an average output of about 7500 gWh per year, you would need about 2600 MW of wind power due to intermittency. That's, say, 1300 2MW turbines, across several sites anywhere on a country's electrical grid. The Danes and Spanish get pretty significant chunks of their total power needs from wind and solar, and are actually net exporters as a result.

Likewise, solar concentrating plants are still in their infancy everywhere except Spain (I can't believe we're not building dozens of them here), but they're competitive with other power generation sources in many areas, and can be pretty reliable as baseload power because they gradually ramp up and down over a period of hours. And photovoltaic panels, though expensive, coincide with peak demand periods in hot countries, which raises the price of the specific electricity they're competing with and makes them much more competitive than raw per-KWH terms would suggest.

I've posted this before but it bears repeating:

"It's only in Spanish, but Spain got well over half its power from solar, wind and hydro on January 6th. If my maths is right, that's 40% for wind, 17% hydro, 20% other "special regimen" power (cogeneration, biomass, solar).

For the entirity of 2010, the percentage contribution (table on page 7, chapter 1) to final demand was about 30% wind/hydro/solar, 27% gas/fuel/combined cycle, 21% nuclear, 9% coal, and 14% "special regime".

But, you know, renewable electricity generation is a total pipedream."


Efficiency can be defined in multiple ways. The resources to make a nuclear power facility, including the land and materials used in construction, are, in the end, wholly less than a gigantic wind or solar farm. The energy output from a much smaller facility, over a much longer period of time, is much higher than from the massive farm required to match it. Green energy costs a lot of money, takes a ton of natural resources, including oil products which I believe is simply ridiculous in comparison to those for a nuclear plant. The environmental costs and long term use of facilities make nuclear a much smarter option and it always has been. Agenda driven ecofreaks don't realize they are hurting the planet more by working against it.

You're right, there's embedded fossil fuels in renewable energy. But there is in nuclear as well - how do you think all the mining equipment is run, and what everything is transported with and processed with? That embedded fossil fuel subsidy exists in everything we do.

I'm also afraid you're simply wrong about the land use impacts as well. Wind farms do need to cover a lot of ground in order to be effective baseload power with minimal intermittency, but that land is still available for other use. 1300 turbines could cover, say, a combined total of 20 square kilometres, but that's distributed over multiple sites and still smaller than the impact of an equivalent coal station and its associated mine which can be more than 50 square kilometres once you include the area impacted by tailings and other waste. A solar concentrating plant uses less land still, and of course plastering solar panels over every building possible, while still expensive, uses no land whatsoever.

Given that nuclear power involves uranium mining and uranium enrichment and the waste products from those activities, water for cooling including runoff impacts on some unfortunate patch of ecosystem, and the need for waste disposal, I doubt the whole life-cycle land impact is really that minimal.

And I'd appreciate if you refrained from terms like "ecofreaks". Such abusive dismissal of serious people and well-thought-out proposals is not conducive to civilised discussion.
 
I JUST drove through that exact same windfarm. It's just north of West Lafayette on rt 65. Its HUGE.

We have plenty more space for stuff like that.
 
wind power I consider to be unfeasible too. It shares some problems with nuclear power I mentioned above. People don't want ugly nuke power plants on beaches, and they don't want ugly wind turbines on beaches, or on hills ruining the beauty of the land. Not to mention wind power kills huge numbers of birds.

Hey, I like wind turbines scattered across the on top of hills! Have you really traveled in an area with any?
 
Yeah, the Capital Wind Farm just outside Canberra up the road to Sydney is quite pretty. Would love to see more around the place.
 
Hey, I like wind turbines scattered across the on top of hills! Have you really traveled in an area with any?

Personally I don't mind them too much. But from what I read, most people don't like them. They have a certain artistic beauty and gracefulness. I haven't seen that many up close. I remember seeing some along Gibraltar as my ship passed the straits of Gibraltar- or it may have been in Spain. I can't remember exactly.
 
Yeah, the Capital Wind Farm just outside Canberra up the road to Sydney is quite pretty. Would love to see more around the place.

Yeah, the Capital Wind Farm just outside Canberra up the road to Sydney is quite pretty. Would love to see more around the place.

The wind farm I mentioned in Indiana is spread across 60 square miles (155sq km) and consists of 121 turbines. They can't be packed much closer, since they start to interfere with one another. So while less than a square kilometre was taken up for farm (less than 1%) you can't derive more power from the area. When the project is finished, it'll produce enough power for 250,000 homes. 300 square miles and it wouldn't be able to power Chicago.

I'm a big fan of hydro, but it can be rather destructive. I drove along some of the generating facilities in northern Quebec (James Bay Project and they're pretty damn destructive. They also put out enough power to run Belgium apparently though.
 
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