Coming Soon: Alexander the Great Scenario

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT:
Discussions on this scenario are NOT to continue here at CFC. We have found a new home at CDG. Feel free to browse the existing threads, as they will remain here and continue to be a reference for the scenario. To contribute to the scenario, or to stay updated on whats going on, visit CDG:

ATG Scenario Index
ATG Scenario: Main Discussions
ATG Scenario: UNITS
ATG Scenario: CIVILIZATIONS
ATG Scenario: Historical Discussion
Civ3 Index at CDG

Please, visit us at our NEW home!

--Ex (10/24/02)

Visit the official website here. Thanks to realn for creating and updating it for us.

After several months of planning, debating, creating, and no sleep, we are all still planning, debating, creating and losing sleep .

Anyways, this scenario is essentially underway and plans are being made and units are being animated . Here is the dirt on the scenario:

Final Civ-Leader List:

Macedonia - Alexander
League of Corinth (Athens) - Demosthenes
Lacedaemonia (Sparta) - Agis
Ionia (Greek colonies) - Spithridates
Persia - Darius
India - Porus
Scythia - Chorienes
Phoenicia - Azimilik
Egypt - Mazasces
Arabia - Gerrha

***Note: India may be further subdivided into more civs to reflect the different Indian attitudes towards Alexander. See this thread for more details.

Click here to see a list of Civs, regions, resources, and units that have been compiled for this mod.

-Kryten, the man, is working on virtually all the units for this scenario, you can find previews and discussions of/about them scattered throughout this thread

Here are just a *few* samples of his work:









-Since this post was first created, three new graphic/unit creators have joined the team: Exsanguination (me), Smoking Mirror, Civanator. I am working on the many variant units that are non-essential to the scenario but instead add flavor and uniqueness. these units are civ2-style units, meaning they are just one-frame all-encompassing 'picture' units. Smoking Mirror is working on several city sets for the scenario, and is reportedly wokringon some ships. Civanator has recently joined us and is busy working on the Mercenary Hoplite for the non-Greek civs.

Smoking Mirror's City Sets:





-almost all of the units will be civ-specific to reflect the vast differences in military formations and army styles

-Each region will have its own "strategic" resource, a resource that they must have to build they're civ-specific units. If another civ conquers them, they now have the right to build those units

-there will also be four new resources: bronze, elephants, timber, and olive oil. The oil replaces ivory as a luxury resource.

-Several civs will start the game with their own armies headed by their resepctive generals (ie the Persian Bessus for the Bactrian Cavalry)

-of course, the scenario will have its own map (by Exsanguination):



Click here to download the finished version.

If you want to make ANY comments whatsoever, so ahead (constructive preffered ). I'd like to get a team of commited members to help this project get a good start. Just say you'd like to help and we can give you something to do, guaranteed! Otherwise just keep giving input! Anything is helpful!

Right now our 'team' has the following members and contributors:

• Exsanguination - team leader, unit designer, map creator, visionary
• Kryten - unit animation and historical analyzer
• Mongoloid Cow - history buff
• Realn - Website Designer
• Smoking Mirror - graphics artist
• Civanator - unit animation
• The Strategos - historical genius
• History_Guy - historical genius #2
• calgacus - historical genius #3
• Piernik - Leaderhead Creator

(if you'd like a better description, just drop me a line )

--Ex (10/05/02)

Exsanguination, I don't know if it'd be of any use to you, but I can give you the leaders and cities of Ionia that I am currently using for a Greek mod of my own:

Cities:

Miletus
Ephesus
Smyrna
Halicarnassus
Phocaea
Erythrae
Teos
Magnesia
Samos
Priene
Clazomenae
Colophon
Cyme
Tralles
Cnidus
Iasus
Chios
Heraeum
Emborio
Didyma
Mycale
Amyzon
Lade
Pygela
Panionion

leaders:
Polycrates (ruler)
Thrasyboulos
Histiaeus
Aristagoras

The leaders are not from the time of Alexander and if you want to take an extremely rigid definition of Ionia (i.e. the land on the west coast of Asia Minor in which Ionian Greek is the native dialect) then some of the cities may have to be dropped. I'm happy with this because it fits my mod's division of the Greek world. Sorry if it's not of much use. Good luck getting a city list for the Scythians!

calgacus - for some of the barbarian civilizations (ie Scythians), I might just leave it to the player to name their own cities because the Scythians never really settled. They just raided and sat down in a certain spot.

Well, looking in my old 'Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars' by Duncan Head (a 1982 Wargames Research Group publication):-

Unique units:
Thrace --- 'the Peltast': armed with a long Hoplite spear plus javelins and an oval shield, a bronze helmet but no body armour.
They used their javelins to skirmish/disorder the slower heavier Hoplites then charge in with their long spears. They could also move through difficult terrain or out-distance heavier troops if under pressure to regroup (so a move of 2 instead of the Hoplites move of 1?). Just about every army of the period had mercenary Thracian Peltasts with them.

Eturia --- 'Etruscan Hoplite': these look like and are armed as Hoplites but also carry the heavy short ranged javalin called 'the Pila' (this is essentially the same weapon that the Romans adopted in 500 BC when they gained their independence from the Etruscan kings).

Arabia --- (this is the hard one!): all I can find is light javelin armed horsemen and camel riders.

Scythia --- 'the Horse Archer': the Scythians (Sarmatians/Rhoxolani/Siracae/Saka/and so on) were all light fast unarmoured horse archers, who used their speed to skirmish at a distance and could outrun heavier horsemen (speed of 3 perhaps?).

Crete --- 'Archer/Bowman'; Cretans were noted for their mercenary archers, and served as such in Athenian/Philip II/Alexander's armies.

Ionia --- 'Hoplites'; the Ionian cities were Greek colonys under Persian rule, so would be armed as the Greeks.

Macedonians --- 'the Phalangite'; like a Hoplite but with a smaller round shield strapped to the left forearm and a 5 meter (18 foot!) two handed pike (called a 'sarissa').

Hope this is of some use. If you need city names (except for the Scythians!) then please let me know.

kryten, all the info you can possibly give me is what I'd like, if possible.

I was wrong about the Arabs! They were noted for their foot archers (no shield, no armour, no helmets, almost no clothes!). They also had some camel mounted bowmen, but NO horses during this period.

The Macedonians also had 3 elite 1,000 man units called 'Hypaspists'. Some historians think that these were sarissa (i.e. pike) armed, but others think they were Hoplite armed. Then there is the famous 'Companions', heavy sarissa armed horsemen (by the way, NO cavalry of this period carried shields. Hard to believe I know, but the first use of cavalry shields was in the 317 BC by 'Tarrantine' light Greek cavalry).

Etruscan cities: Volaterrae, Arretium, Vetulonia, Cottona, Perusia, Clusium, Rusellae, Volsinii, Volci, Veii, Caere, Tarquinii, and to the north of Etrusca in the Celtic Po valley is Felsina, Hafria and Mantua (the Etruscans were a league of 12 cities without a set capital, but as they had a couple of kings called 'Tarquinius', you could have the city of Tarquinii as the capital).

The 7 Etruscan kings who ruled over Rome were: Romulus, Numa Pompilius, Tullus Hostilius, Ancus Marcius, Tarquinius Priscus, Servius Tullius and Tarquinius Superbus.

The Thracians (like the Celts/Gauls) lived in wooden villages and their names are not recorded. All I can find is Greek colonies in Thracian territory (all on the coast), but some of these may be Thracian or at least Thracian controlled:
Abdara (this dosen't sound Greek, so may be Thracian), Thasos, Maronea, Aenus, Perinthus, Eion, Therma, Sestus, Neapolis and Amphipolis (polis is Greek for 'city', so these must be colonies). I've no idea what the Thracian capital was. In fact, I'm sure they didn't have one.

An idea for the Scythian cities: why not call them after the various Scythian tribes? So you get Sarmatia, Saka, Pazyryk, Massagetai, Rhoxolani, Siracae, Sindi, Tauri, Maiotia, Kimmeria, Getae, Iazygia, Alania.

Cretan cities: Knossos, Khania (later Kydonia or Cydonia), Monastiraki, Arkhanes, Hagia-Triadha, Phaistos, Mallia, Mrytos, Gournia (later Gortyn), Palaikastro, Kato-Zakro and Itanos.

If I find any more I'll let you know.

During the Hellenistic Period in which started around Alex the Great and ended in 50BC or so, all of the Greek Black Sea colonies on the north and east coasts were conquered by Scythian tribes. The Scythians stayed there until Mithridates the Great of Pontus conquered them. If you want some of the cities, they are : Tanais, Chersonesus, Tyras, Oblia, Theodosiopolis, Panticipaeum, Pityus, Dioscurias, Phasis, Tiflis and Asiopolis. More Scythic tribes are the Tabae, Paratae, Parnii, Maracandans, Margianes, Sarsae, and the Choresmii.

Thrace was a barbaric region with different tribes ruling different areas. After Alex the Great died, his general Lysimachus took control of them and used Byzantium as his headquarters. I don't know if after his death, Byzantium was conquered by the Greeks or the Bithynians, and if it stayed as a whole kingdom.

Good input Mongoloid Cow. I also have more info:-

The Thracians:
Gods --- the Thacians worshipped a warrior goddess called 'Bendis'.
Tribes --- Odrysai, Dioi, Bessoi, Bastarnae, Triballoi, Getai (the Getai, although Thracian, fought as Scythian horse archers. And the Odrysai were the largest and most important tribe).
Kings --- Kotys III, Seuthes III (both Odrysai) and Dromichaites (of the Getai)
Cities --- Vratsa, Aghighiol, Lentnitsa, Cotofenesti, Baiceni (I don't which tribe owned which city, but as I said, the Odrysai were the biggest tribe).

The Etruscans:
Capital --- the Etruscans were a religious association with their federal centre at the temple of Voltumna in the city of Volsinii.
Abilities --- very Religious and superstitious. They were often led into battle by a contingent of priests "who advanced like furies, brandishing snakes and burning torches". They could also be considered Commercial, as they had a large fleet and trading links with Carthage. But in no way should they be considered as Militaristic. The Romans say that thay feared the Etruscans because of their numbers (well, 12 cities versus 1, wouldn't you!), but not for their skill or courage. The Romans had a low opinion of these qualities, and were suprised when an Etruscan army gave them a hard fight in 310 BC: "It seemed as though we were contending, not with the so often defeated Etruscans, but with some new race. There was no sign of flight in any quarter".

And that's all I can find.

kryten and mongoloid cow, your info is invaluable!!! THANK YOU!!!

kryten - I've been debating about hypaspists for the Macedonians, but the key to their success was the phalanx. I might tinker with the ancient age units, this mod will be very in-depth. Just wait...

Until then, keep the info coming!!! Thank you all!! (and yes, I'm researchong myself, not that lazy)

Amphipolis although in Thrace, should be a Macedonian city. It came under control of Macedonia, which fought Athens, Boeotia, the Thracians, Persia and Sparta to keep it because nearby was Mt. Pangeus which was rich in gold.

Other main cities in all of ancient Thrace were : Crenides (When conquered by Philip II it was renamed Philippi), Agraines, Buridava, Maleusa, Apollonia, Oddesseus (sp?), Istrus, Ismarus, Aenus, Alexandropolis, Maronea, Perinthus (a Megaran colony), Poiana, Toni, Tomi, Naissus, Serdica, Stobi and Ophiusa.

Some ancient Arabian cities are Makoraba (Mecca), Yathrib (sp? Medina), Tema, Harra, Dedan, Petra, and Leukome.

If you want some Scythian cities around modern Kazakhstan, there are : Maracanda, Margiana, Nautaca, Orreschata, Siraca, Susia, Aorrus, Bactra (Zariaspa), Alexandria Oxiana, Alexandria Esclath, Alexandria Aeorofum and Chorsem. Some more Scythian cities around the Black Sea are Theodosia, Leuce, Heraclea and Maeotisopolis. More Scythian tribes are : Taurii, Tyrii, Dahae, Thyssagetae, Sacaraussae, Aspisii, Sogdiae and Astauenes.

final list of civs:

Macedonians
Greeks
Persians
Egyptians
Babylonians
Indians
*Thracians
*Arabs
*Scythians
*Cretans
*Ionians
*Phoenicians (people of Tyre)

Any extra info on the civs with a "*" would be still greatly appreciated. Special thanks to Kryten for the enormous help he has been to this project.

Why thank you.

The Horse Archer is nearly done, and I thought I'd start on the peltast next as I'm having trouble with the phalangite (pikemen use both hands so they lead with their LEFT shoulder. The problem is that half the Hoplite frames lead with the RIGHT, so I'm going to have to draw some of them by hand. Ugh!).

Meanwhile, here are a few idea's and suggestions:-

*Dark Sheer posted an interesting reply to Zeeters 'Better Infantry' thread along the lines of giving foot units both attack AND defend attributes. He says that the AI has no problem with this. So you could have foot and mounted troops out in the open fighting battles instead of the infantry hidding in cities while the cavalry rushes about doing all the capturing.

*Here's an idea of my own; reduce the road movement bonus to x2 but then +1 to all land units movement. Instead of foot units plodding along at 1 tile a turn across-country and in enemy territory, they would now move 2, with a top speed of 4 on roads that they control. Fast foot units (peltasts and bow skirmishers?) along with slow mounted troops (heavy cavalry/elephants/chariots?) would move 3, with a top speed on roads of 6, the same as in a standard civ3 game. Fast mounted units (light cav and horse archers) would move 4 and 8, only a tad slower than standard. This would really open up the tactical side of things without having ridiculously fast or slow movement (you could even have siege engines with a move of only 1 thus slowing down the army, which is why Alexander frequently dashed ahead with light troops and why they were so rarely used on the battlefield).

*One last idea; have you ever concidered hiding the date? This may be possible by simply putting a black box where the date/year is usually displayed (black writing won't be visible in a black box!). We all know that Alexander died at the age of 33 in the year 323 BC, so you always get situations where the player says "Oh, it's 327 BC, I've only got a few turns left, I'd better capture this city to get a good score". But if you hide the date, then the player is not quite sure how much time they have left before the old boy kicks the bucket and ends the scenario. After all, none of the soothsayers of the period knew when he was going to die, so why should the player?

These are just some ideas to mull over. Some of them may not even be possible. It's up to you, your'e in charge. I just make the units!
And speaking of units.....I've got a present for you. You weren't going to try to make an Alexander the Great scenario without Companion Cavalry were you? (if you did, I would be the first one to write flaming threads screaming "it's not realistic!!!")

So here it is, a preview of this months special offer; a free Companion Cavalryman with every Scythian Horse Archer!
Ok, so it's only a Horseman with a Thracian helment, a bronze breastplate, and a longer weapon (!). But it is free (and like all free things there is a catch....er....it's not finished yet!).

ahhh... kryten you are the man....

allow me to address your ideas:

first off, im not sure what you mean by giving foot soldiers both attack/defense attributes... don't all soldiers have both?

about the movements... I'll think about it, but I probably will leave most early units as movement of 1 because i find it fine as it is, but later on, yes I believe more units should have higher movement points.

anf for the date - for now I'm just leaving it as is. Until I can change the year sequence, I'll just have the mod have the major civs of Alex's conquest. The techs/units/eras/etc will be the same (except for UUs, of course). If FIRAXIS COMES OUT WITH A DECENT EDITOR *ahem ahem*, I will make radical changes to the game (ie, it will deal strictly with 356 BC-323 BC: everything)

And lastly, for the companion horseman, those *may* have to wait. I feel the phalanx (phalangite) is more important to Alex's success. If FIRAXIS COMES OUT WITH A DECENT EDITOR, I will change the benefits of the civ attributes -

examples:
-Militaristic civs get an extra UU (companions for macedonians...)
-Expansionistic civs get settlers with A/D (prob something better)
-Commercial civs ... undecided
-Religious civs ... also undecided
-Industrious get cheaper workers w/ A/D (also maybe better)


Also, these are all just possibilities and none of it is set in stone. But it all depend on whether FIRAXIS COMES OUT WITH A DECENT EDITOR.

Originally posted by Exsanguination

Im not sure what you mean by giving foot soldiers both attack/defense attributes... don't all soldiers have both?

Click to expand...

My fault. I used the wrong word. Should have said 'AI Strategies', i.e. the archer unit has the 'offensive' flag ticked in the Editor so that the AI knows that it is supposed to use these units to attack, while the spearman has the 'defense' flag ticked. Dark Sheer is saying that a unit can have BOTH flags ticked. This is how human players use, say, the Legionary unit, sometimes using it to attack and sometimes to defend a city.

If you want info on Alexander and his world the best place to look is the original sources - all modern books basically just repeat what people like ARRIAN say anyway.

ARRIAN, 'The Campaigns of Alexander' should be in any good bookshop.

Also another good ancient historian is PLOYBIUS. He writes about a later period but his stuff contains excellent anaylsis of various nations military forces (he was with the Roman army when they destroyed Carthage and he saw Greek battles first hand).

For example Ploybius tells us that the greatest strength of the Macedonian Pike formation (armed with 18 foot+ pikes) was its ATTACKING strengh. Which doesn't quite fit with how Fireaxis has pikemen and hoplites.

Basically the Pikemen would form up 5 rows deep with their pikes facing forward and then charge the enemy. The weakness (this is all accroding to Ploybius remember) was it required flat clear groud to work effectively. Uneven ground or attacking up hill restricted it's usefullness.

its Polybius not Ploybius .

(this is mainly for Kryten) - I am going to start the final production of this mod once I get your animations. Be in no hurry, I prefer quality to, well, I guess speed. Just to let you know!

BTW - v1.0 will include only the civs, not a map or any edited rules. Just the civs. Once Firaxis decides to get it together and release a nice editor, I will unleash my ultimate goals for this mod... but that is for a later date.

ploybius? PLYBIBIBIBIS? huh huh huh???

Aaaargh! I apologise for my typing skills.

Of course it's Polybius!

kryten? how are we on the animations? i'm still anxiously awaiting those finished products!!!

Sorry I haven't kept in touch for so long.

The Sythian horse archer is finnished and is in the units forum. I took me three times longer than I thought it would! As for the others, well I AM still working in them, but they are not ready yet.

I think that the Thracian peltast will take about a week, and another week for the Hypaspists. The Macedonian pikeman will take longer....about two weeks. Add it all up and it comes to about a month for them all. Sorry it's taking me so long.

Try out the horse archer and tell what you think.