SUL4: Training Day for Emperors

This is the thread for the newest training day game. We will be the Greeks in this game, which I chose because I don't want players to become too reliant on cheap temples (religious), fast workers (industrious), cheap barracks and promotions (militarous), or scouts (expansionistic). It doesn't hurt that the Greeks essentially start the game with pikemen either if we get in a tight spot early on!

The map is a small one, with random barbarians and climate. Difficulty is Emperor (obviously), 5 random opponents. All victory conditions are enabled.

Roster
Sulla, the so-called "veteran" player
Ihmotep
Ridgelake
MingTheMerciles
Ziggy
This game is now full

Same rules as most succession games, no goto commands that last past your turn, no worker automation (it's one of your biggest advantages over the AI - use it!), no actions of egregious betrayal like ROP rape allowed. That kind of thing might be a good tactic, but I trying to teach how to play the game better, no how better to exploit the game's artificial intelligence. All rounds last 10 turns, which will take a short time early on and a long time later in the game. NO more, even if you really want to! please try to provide a detailed description of your turns; if you don't tell me what happened, I can't comment on it. Most importantly, wish us good luck! We may need it.

Here's the first turn summary:



(0) We have a very good starting position, on a river and on furs. As always, I move the worker first to see if there is a better city location close by. Not seeing anything, and already in a great spot, I opt to found where we started. For founding on the furs, we get a bonus shield and a bonus commerce, plus another bonus commerce for starting on a river, for a total of 2 food, 2 shields, and 3 commerce. Wow! And even better, there will be no fewer than 3 floodplains wheat in Athen's radius as soon as its culture expands in 10 turns. Athens itself is not on floodplains though, and thus shouldn't be subject to disease. We've got an absolute KILLER starting spot here.

Building queue is set to warrior, for scouting purposes. Before ending this turn, I go to the F6 screen and select to research Ceremonial Burial, then go to F1 and set science to max. We will get it in 10 turns. I then check Athens to see that it is working the right tile, a floodplains one. Only after doing all this do I hit then next turn button.

(1) I move the worker. Not real exciting.

(2) I move our worker again to the floodplains square to irrigate it.

(3) Worker begins irrigating.

(4) Still irrigating. Somebody stop this party, there's too much excitement going on!

(5) Athens produces a warrior and starts another. These will be our scouts.

(7) Worker finishes irrigating, begins roading the tile. Goody hut spotted nearby.

(8) Athens grows next turn to size 2.

(9) Athens finishes its second warrior a turn ahead of schedule, because when it grew to size 2 it pulled in extra shields from a forest tile. This is a very subtle micromanaging trick that you can sometimes pull off when a city grows. I would normally start a granary at this time, but Athens has enough food to go without one for the moment. It starts a settler, due in 8 turns but 10 turns will be required to grow to size 3. Am I crazy? No, I'm just going to do some tile swapping between floodplains and forest to get it done in 9 turns. Watch and see. Oh yeah, and the goody hut had barbarians in it. Our warrior is on a hill though so he *SHOULD* survive.

(10) Hey, guess what? Our warrior died! Isn't that great! *sigh* I have the worst luck with barbarians... The bonus against barbaians is lower on Emperor, so this isn't all that unexpected, but it still isn't good. Now the other warrior has to defend the capitol from the two barbarians that survived. This is a good lesson on "why you don't open goody huts with a non-expansionist civ on Emperor or Deity."Ceremonial Burial finished, research started on Pottery for the all powerful granaries. I change Athens to a Hoplite on second though, so that our warrior can keep exploring and because I'd rather have Athens alternating between 2 and 4 than 1 and 3 with the settlers.

(11) The barbarians head for Athens.

(13) Our other warrior kills one of the two barbarians to prevent a disastrous sacking of Athens. Hoplite completes next turn.

(14) Athens back on settler.

(15) The other barbarian impales himself on our warrior fortified across a river. The threat is over. Athens back on settler, Hoplie fortified in capitol for barb protection and military police. Athens is pulling a ridiculous 5 food from the irrigated floodplains wheat and will continue to grow like mad. Worker roads the tile he's on.

(16) Athens is now size 3. The game defaulted to another forest tile but I change that to another floodplains wheat, since growth is more important than production at the moment. Athens grows in 4 turns and produces a settler in 5. Our scouting warrior finds mostly desert to the west - not so hot.

(18) A Russian spearman and warrior appear out of the fog. Catherine is annoyed (they always are at first contact) and has Warrior Code and Mysiticism to our Alphabet. I hold off on any deals, since those two techs are not that useful and the last thing I want to do is put Russia, a scientific civ, further on the road to cheap libraries with Alphabet. Our score is actually higher than their at the moment, which means nothing, but at least they don't have a second city yet. We finished Pottery at the beginning of this turn and I choose to research the Wheel, as it will reveal the location of horses. Thanks to Russia, our time to research techs will go down now; we should probably follow them on the tech tree after this since it's cheaper than researching new techs and the AI won't give you jack for trades early on in the game.

(19) Some nice land a little southwest of Athens, with 3 bonus grasslands. I check with Russia to see if there are any workers to buy from them, which I always do early in a game. Getting them is a critical advantage both to cripple your opponent and speed yourself up.

(20) Athens grows to size 4 and I raise the luxury tax to 10% to prevent a revolt next turn. If we weren't on the furs, we would have needed it at size 3. If we didn't have the military police or furs, we would have needed the luxury tax at size 2! A settler completes next turn though. Looks like Russia is nearby; our warrior spots their first settler about to build a city on some spices only 7 tiles away from Athens. This could be dicey in the early going.

The Game, 3000BC

Comments: Right now, Athens should probably build a granary after its settler finishes. That will allow us to go settler - settler - settler ad nauseum for as long as we want. The new city [Sparta, unless you change the name] will be responsible for military defense early on. I suggest a river site for the second city, but I won't lay out any specific location. Remember, I'm offering more critiques after turns than saying beforehand "You should do this" because otherwise it would really just be me playing all the turns, right? Don't be afraid to make a mistake, and do your best, that's what counts!

Map:


Sulla
Ihmotep <<< UP NOW
Ridgelake <<< on deck

10 turns each! I only took 20 because it was the first turn of the game.

If you still need a player, I'd be interested.

Hey Sulla,

Why would you build a Granary if you've got a Wheat Flood Plain in the vicinity of Athens? One of the other TD leaders (won't drop names) said that he'll only build a Granary in the main city early if there isn't a Cow or Wheat available..won't a Granary force you to maintain happiness early (as you'll keep growing faster than you can pop workers/settlers)? Just wondering what your rationale is.

got it

You said you want a river location for city #2 but as far as I can tell, Athens controls that whole river....if I had Sparta on a river that would be tile-sharing to the extreme especially since the capital is due to expand again once we get a temple/library in it

On emperor you want to build cities close together, because it means less corruption, and it helps in keeping up with the AI.

oh btw sul, how do you get your irrigation to look like that?

..i want my irrigation to look like that....

Its a graphic mod. Go to the Graphic Mod Forum and download Snoopy's Terrain, or one other guy. Sorry can't remember his name.

If a spot is still open I would be interested Sulla. I've been in 2 of the training day games so far (both of which have died off)...and I mostly play Regent/Monarch...though i did play the diety GOTM

The idea behind the granary is that with it we can make settlers without any switchoff to warriors in between them. After looking at the map again though, with no fewer than 3 floodplains wheat, we probably don't need a granary after all. So.... let's see what happens without one, in that case! Never let your philosophy get in the way of what the situation dictates, after all

Since I see two posts in the last 12 hours, I'll accept both MingTheMerciles and Ziggy into the game, which now closes with 5 players. You will be at the end of the playing order for now.
New Order
Sulla
Ihmotep (has the game)
Ridgelake <<< on deck
MingTheMerciles
Ziggy

BTW... my current graphics set is a mixture of a couple of different ones, mostly Sn00py's graphics but without his trees since I didn't like them. Hunt around in the modpacks forum and see if there's one you happen to like!

Originally posted by Ihmotep
oh btw sul, how do you get your irrigation to look like that?

..i want my irrigation to look like that....

Click to expand...

Ihmotep, didn't you tell me not long ago (during a Chieftain game) that you didn't even want to play at Regent?

Well, best of luck with the game, guys. These training games are a great experience and you'll learn lots..

BTW you can download modified graphics in the downloads forum.

Okey welllll here it goes


Pre turn - nothing needed to be vetoed. upped science 10% lowering time for Wheel to 9 turns with no gold loss. Micromanage Athens to grow 1 turn faster with no loss in production.

1-2950BC) Athens goes into disorder suddenly...doh...I lower science to 90% and up luxury to 10%

2-2900BC) order restored. Settler completes. I start a Barracks. Russians plop about 3 or 4 squares south of Athens. ....

3-2850BC) Worker starts road

4-2800BC) Sparta settled on the river. It went against everything I'd been taught about tile sharing..but I did it. I hope I settled where you had planned, Sullla.....if not then

5-2750BC) Nothing

6-2710BC) Nothing

7-2670BC) in between turns, a bab warrior was attackign a russian warrior....War between Russia and Babylon. Hammi offers me Warrior Code for Alphabet. Since I dont want to give him a head-start on Literature, I decline but instead give him 5 gold but it doesn't up his feelings toward us...still annoyed

8-2630BC) We start Ironworking 11 turns

9-590BC)Athens finishes barracks and starts Hoplite. I noted that the micromanagement that I had done (moving a citizen off the trees) had been undone....is that a bug?

10-2550BC - Lower science 20% and are back at 11 (but aren't losing money anymore). I was getting a 'low treasury' warning. I move the worker onto a nearby wheat for the next player..

I hope I didn't botch up too bad...especially with the settler...now that I think of it I probably did. When is a city considered to have a river? does the center square need to be next to the river or does a river square just need to be insdie its borders...if its the latter then I messed up.

if you rightclick and view terrain info, you will see that river squares have 1 extra Commerce bonus (gold). The city needs to be founded on one of these squares. Sometimes the sites are diagonal or not quite clear, viewing the terrain info will help.

Ihmo, which square in did you put the new city in? I am at work now and cannot open the save game until I get home tonight. Please reference the area picture that Sulla posted above.

Ridge

Critique for Ihmotep:

Turn1: Athens went into disorder because you weren't watching the luxury rate? That's a bigtime move there, I'm afraid. We essentially lost a turn to all of our rivals as a result. With only one city, there's absloutely no excuse for it to go into disorder. I'm being a little harsh on you (it was your first turn, after all) but you have to recognize these things. Little things like this are where the difference between winning on Regent and winning on Emperor occur.

Turn2: You chose a barracks as the second build choice?! Bigtime here. Why do we need a barracks? Are we fighting anyone? What did I say we were going to use Athens for? SETTLER production! NOT military at this stage in the game!!! Barracks was a very bad choice. Now we will be paying 1g/turn on it for something we're not using AND we wasted 7! turns of production in the early game where it is most crucial. I suggested another settler as the build choice, and if Athens wasn't growing fast enough to produce settlers non-stop to build a granary. This is just not a good choice.

Turn4: You placed Sparta exactly where I would have put it though! It is on a river; you can check by getting the terrain info and seeing if the tile has an extra gold to it. Yes it overlaps quite a bit. But the location gives us several big advantages: it's easy to defend, it can take the third floodplains wheat in the north, it's on a river for bonus commerce and no aqueduct, no need for an early temple, and we won't have a big issue with tile sharing until we get hospitals. Very good choice in my opinion. I generally don't build this close either unless the situation merits it - and I felt that it does here. My views are not infalliable by any means, but I think Sparta is in a really solid location. The next city shouldn't overlap with either though if we can manage it.

Turn7: Don't bother give gifts to foreign leaders early on. They'll be "annoyed" with us until we build an embassy in their capitol. It doesn't mean they're going to war with us or anything. But you did throw away 5g here for no reason - and at this point in time, 5g is a lot of money. You were right not to trade Alphabet for Warrior Code; the cost in beakers for Alphabet is about twice the cost for Warrior Code. Also good note on the scientific civ thing again. We can research Warrior Code on the cheap now that we have contact with both Russia and Babylon.

Turn8: I probably would have followed Russia and Babylon on the tech research, but there is nothing wrong with Iron Working to find the iron locations. Good choice.

Turn9: Bad choice for Athens. Why do we need a Hoplite? We're safe from attack here. If you saw the gambit I ran in GOTM7 in terms of paper-thin defense... well, let's just say that I had warriors defending cities when the other civs were fighting with infantry. But remember I did win that game. Trying to "turtle" and do nothing but defend against possible aggression from other civs is not going to win the game for you on Emperor and Deity. You have to expand as fast as possible under minimal defense, or start an early war and take their cities. On Emperor you can still be pretty safe, but on Deity... you really have to hope luck is with you and the AI doesn't attack. The more you gamble the bigger the possible gain; I tend to be pretty conservative but I still expand relentlessly in the early game. In any case though, we shouldn't be building a Hoplite in Athens. If we need military police or a scout, we should be building a warrior. Athens needs to produce a SETTLER next.

As to the AI rearranging your tiles, you have to check them every time the city grows, because sometimes the game rearranges them. In the current setup, Athens is maxing shields with two forests and one wheat tile being used. Ahhhh! NO! We want Athens on max FOOD! *beats head against wall* OK, I know that the tiles get rearranged sometimes but it's your job to fix that. That's how you win on Emperor; the artificial intelligence doesn't make great choices on city builds, tile improvements, and which tiles to work. To win all you need to do is be smarter than the AI. In a more abstract sense, growth is power in Civ3, and food = growth. It's a rare case when you DON'T want to run max growth in the early game, and this is NOT one of those cases. By putting Athens on the floodplains, by this time it would have grown to size 5 and could be working the floodplains AND the forests, as well as bringing in more commerce for research. Conclusion: Athens on max food for now!

Turn10: Why are we losing money? It's that useless BARRACKS in Athens doing it! We shouldn't sell it because we will need it later, but it is hurting us. More importantly, did you turn the luxury rate down when Athens shrunk after completing a settler on turn 2? No, you didn't although you should have. By just changing the slider (and causing no unhappiness) I was able to stay at +1 g/turn while shortening research time from 11 turns to 9 turns. Over the last 9 turns we could have had 9 more gold, plus witrh the 5 you gave away, we shouldn't be in any finiacial trouble. See how the little things add up? It's all linked together; being a successful player is nothing more than knowing how to get the max possible out of your cities, and we weren't doing that on Ihmotep's turn.

Suggestions: Athens on SETTLER, Athens rearranged so that it works 2 floodplains (1 with a wheat) and 1 forest. It will then grow in 2 turns and be right back on the 2 forests again. After the settler is finished, stay on the floodplains and build either another settler or a worker; we will need both soon. Sparta probably should just build warriors at the moment to guard our settlers that will be going out to form new cities. Why is our warrior not scouting? We know NOTHING about our surroundings! We need more knowledge to find good places for the next cities! Up north near the bonus grassland and the wheat would make a good location for the next city.

This is a pretty viscious critique. In a way though, I'm glad that the first turn was a little sloppy so that I could comment more about what needs to be prioritize. Ihmotep, I used you as a guinea pig of sorts by being deliberately vague on what to do, so that I could comment more after the first turn. At your current level, you should be able to win on Regent but Emperor is definitely not your thing. But never fear! By the end of this game I'm confident you will be able to solo Monarch and begin working towards a higher level if you so desire. It wasn't so long ago I was struggling on Regent either. Remember that nothing I say is directed against anyone else here as a person; I'm just trying to explain how better to play the game. If that causes me to say harsh things like this sometimes, well that's just me breaking out the hammer and beating weedy gameplay.

Sulla
Ihmotep
Ridgelake <<< UP NOW
MingTheMerciles <<< on deck
Ziggy

The Upload File feature isn't loading on my computer at the moment, so I'm just going to attach the current picture. On final thing: you should have irrigated the tile that is roaded but is otherwise empty. We could be using that floodplains now; there's no reason to road it and not irrigate it. That would have been a better move for Sparta. We need more workers, and soon.

Is the desert one NW of Sparta also on the river? I can never tell with river mouths. If so, I think that would have been a better spot.

Arathorn

i was also thinking that spot arathorn. Actually, it probably IS river, but NOT floodplain. this would make the disease rate lower, but more importantly it would elevate a desert square (normally 0 food) to 2 food (as all cities). It would also be less overlap.

Sulla makes a very good point about access to that wheat - i have seen some benefit to trading a wheat back and forth between starting cities in your lotr3 emporer training.