RBP 10 - The Spanish Explorers - Team A

RBP10 - The Spanish Explorers (we're "exploring" Deity only to find out that there's plenty of people who've been living there for quite some time!)

Civilization: Spain
Difficulty: Deity
Standard Map
Continents, 30% land
Random Opponents
Roaming Barbs
Victory: Just win, baby!

Version: PTW 1.21f (if you *can't* play in 1.21f, speak up now!)

Roster:
Team A
Griselda
Kylearan
Dwip
6GenTexan

Both teams are currently full, although we might be able to start a team C as well *if* there's enough interest (or some Deity vets want to show us how it's done, hehe).

Teams A and B will not look at any spoiler information from the others' game until their game has ended! Hopefully we can keep things rolling along with 4 players and be able to discuss things at the end.

No exploits as defined here- http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html

24/48 is a good rule of thumb (you have 24 hours after it becomes your turn to post a "got it" message, and 48 hours after you post "got it" to play and post your turns). Of course, as a small group, the most important thing is to maintian good communication! The rules may need to be bent in certain situations.

The first two players from each team will play 20 turns, then everyone will play ten turns from then on (unless the late game demands 5 turns per round).

Does this sound all right with everybody?

Team A members please "check in" here.

The first start I generated looked pretty interesting, and actually pretty unique:



That's fresh water to our west, and salt water to our east, and the site doesn't look too bad for shields in the long run, either, for a coastal start.

Are we ready? I'm looking forward to a fun game!

RBP10 - The Spanish Explorers - Start

-Griselda

edit- added start file

(0) 4000 BC - I spent a lot of time deciding where to found our first city. The two spots I considered were our starting tile, and one tile SW. Either tile would allow us to irrigate the cattle immediately.

Advantages of 1SW-
- Fewer water tiles in the radius, although still coastal and on fresh water
- Spices would be in our radius, and easier to get hooked up quickly
- Possibly more room to settle N and NE of the capitol, depending upon what the land looks like

Advantages of starting tile-
- We'd settle one turn earlier
- We could get the game tile improved faster
- We'd pull in those two hills

It's hard for me to weigh the balance between those advantages and disadvantages. I ended up choosing 1 SW for the incense and hopefully to make better use of the land we have available.

I did move the worker to the cattle before making a final decision, since I was going to work the cattle first no matter what.

(1) 3950 BC - Madrid founded. Begin irrigating cows. Start pottery at max, and a warrior

(2) 3900 BC - zzz
(3) 3850 BC - zzz
(4) 3800 BC - zzz

(5) 3750 BC - Our first warrior is complete, and I start another. The cattle tile is irrigated, and we start on a road there. Our warrior heads south.

(6) 3700 BC - Warrior sees desert and another lake

(7) 3650 BC - zzz

(8) 3600 BC - cattle tile improved, move N to forest. War sees more spices to the south.

(9) 3550 BC - Here's the first total of the game, although one could argue that the capitol placement contributed to it- I forgot that we wouldn't be able to irrigate the game tile anyway without a line of irrigation (why had I thought of this for the cows, but not for the game?). So, I start roading this forest instead of chopping it. It took me a few more turns to realize my mistake. Boo!

Our second warrior is complete, and stays for MP duty. Madrid grows to 2, and our second laborer will work the lake until our borders expand to grab the game.

(10) 3500 BC - There's more spices S.

(11) 3450 BC - Madrid borders expand. With the unimproved game tile, it's at +3 food and 5 shields per turn! Our warrior sees the south coast of our continent.

(12) 3400 BC - Third warrior is done, and moves SE. S warrior sees a hut. What to build in Madrid? Pottery is due in 10 at 100%, and even building a barracks would be done in 8, so I can't start a granary prebuild. I could either slow the barracks after 5 turns or so by working the lake, or build a quick warrior, which will be done in 2 turns. I choose the warrior, since I figure we'll want one eventually anyway.

(13) 3350 BC - I choose to avoid the hut. If we're alone on our island, which it looks like we may be, then we could settle-pop it, or wait until we're somewhat more equipped to handle bars.

(14) 3300 BC - 4th warrior done, and, ack, we're over the limit already! We need to research at a deficit, or we may not get pottery before the prebuild finishes.

Warrior stays home, since Madrid will grow again in 2. Barracks started as prebuild for granary.

(15) 3250 BC - Worker moves to game tile

(16) 3200 BC - Here's when I realize there's no line of irrigation for the game. I don't want to chop the forest and leave that tile chopped and unimproved while I go get some water, so I move the worker back down to the roaded forest. Sorry!

Madrid is now size 3, and the third laborer is working the lake.

(17) 3150 BC - Now I begin forestry just NE of Madrid. A warrior scout sees fish and whales to the NE.

(18) 3100 BC - Find SE cattle.

(19) 3050 BC - Science to 60%, pottery in 1.

(20) 3000 BC - Pottery in. We're "moderately advanced." It's looking likely that we'll need at least map making for contact, so I start writing at 90%. Ack- 40 turns at 90%? I leave it set that high, because hopefully growth can take that down a bit.

Madrid to granary, due in 6. Forest chop to bring irrigation to the game will be done in 7.

Our island is pretty little, and I hope this turns out to be doable (I didn't play in before starting, just verified that the starting position looked OK). It's mostly explored, though we should double check around the edges to look for close neighbors or an isthmus.

Our cash situation should be pretty ugly between when the granary completes and the second city is founded, but things should turn around after that.



Shoot, we can almost see enough to make a dotmap, but it might be best to wait until we're sure about the edges.

RBP10A - 3000 BC

Griselda - just played
Kylearan - UP NOW (play 20)
Dwip - on deck (will play 10 from here on out)
6GenTexan - in the dugout

-Griselda

Now let's see if I can kick some... oh. Nobody's there.

(Hah, finally I can play with these smileys, too... )

Interesting start! Alone on an island is both good and bad - very easy to defend, but I don't like the resulting late contacts. Especially contact brokering normally enables you to get tech parity early...this could be a not-so-easy Deity game.

I'm glad you've founded the capital SW of the start, because I love early luxuries on deity! But I'll guess I can't connect them in my turn as the worker is busy making his way to the game tile, which I would have left alone at first. Heh, my first turn in my first SG, and already I see what it means to have different playstyles in one team.

So the objectives for my turn will be: Improve the game tile and get a settler going. I ponder long and hard what to do with science. I agree that writing is very important for map making, but it needs 40 turns even at maximum science, and I think that won't change in the near future. The editor says writing needs two times the beakers needed for the wheel, and the wheel needs 32 turns at 5 beakers for us. Now with already paying unit maintenance, and seeing the need to increase the lux slider in three turns, *and* seeing Madrid pumping settlers and workers thereafter, I change research to minimum - I hope that's not in your eyes!

I even thought about changing research to bronze working at maximum affordable science, because warriors as escorts for settlers definately make me uneasy - but maybe I'm overly paranoid after Epic 26.

(1) 2950BC: zzz

(2) 2900BC: First barbarian warrior has appeared! Our warrior moves on hill for defense. Madrid will grow in one, MM for more shields.

(3) 2850BC: Our warrior survived the attack, losing one. Heals. With only warriors at hand, I'll let the camp live - for now. Lux slider is increased a notch.

(4) 2800BC: MM Madrid to get granary one turn sooner.

(5) 2750BC: Granary is completed, settler started. First I thought about building a cheap temple first to let Madrid grow a bit more, but all these barbs are making me nervous: Another barb camp on the NE tip of the island had appeared! Oh, and our landmass is larger than it first seemed - theres a landbridge to the north!

(6) 2710BC: zzz

(7) 2670BC: Now the forest is chopped, and a bonus grass appears! Nice. Hm, but now what to do? I'd mine it, normally - but this would delay chopping and irrigating the game tile further, as the worker had to chop/irrigate/road another forest tile first. Okay, I grudgingly irrigate it - we can mine it later, losing "only" two turns. (Ack! Later I found out that from last Epic, I was used to being industrious. So we lose more than two turns, and I probably should have mined it instead. Sorry! )

(8) 2630BC: Settler is finished, and a warrior ordered. Now where to send him? The cattle tile to the east looks good to have early on, so the settler and *both* warriors are sent into baba-land.
The northern warrior-scout finds that the "landbridge" was rather short, and that we are on an island indeed. But another landmass can be seen to the west.

(9) 2590BC: zzz

(10) 2550BC: Madrid produces a warrior, orders another one. At minimum science, we are losing 1gpt now...

Okay, I stop here instead of playing 20 turns, because I'd like to discuss a dotmap before ruining any better proposals by plunking down cities in awkward spots. Here's my first attempt at one, ever, as I normally just settle on a case-by-case basis:



After throwing away my first half dozen or so tries, I'm still not satisfied with it, so maybe someone can do this better than I. With this little land, I was aiming for quantity instead of quality city-wise, and the white dots could be fishibg villages. Red dot would be where the settler is heading to: A site on the coast, on fresh water, and with a cattle in its inner ring.

Notes to the next leader, Dwip: Madrid grows next turn, so you probably can decrease science a notch next turn. I also pondered about moving the warrior out of madrid to fortify on the cattle tile, so that the barbarian warrior might move on the forest tile on its way to empty Madrid and the worker would be safe - the warrior could return to the city next turn. But that's, of course, up to you.

Have fun, and don't hesitate to critizise any I might have done! I won't be offended, in fact, I would be if any would remain unmentioned.

Have fun!

Roster:
Griselda
Kylearan - Just enjoyed his first
Dwip - Up now
6GenTexan - On deck

-Kylearan

Just checking in to say "I'm here!"

Got it.

And while we're here, not having looked much at anything besides Kylearan's dotmap yet, I offer up a second look at said dotmap:



Shifted the south a bit, made Ky's green dot a bit worse and shifted his pink dot over a bit in order to add my purple dot. Maybe not worth it for a fishing village, but it's a thought. After thinking REALLY hard about it, my thought is to move Ky's green dot/my blue dot north one to the second blue dot. It gets it that second hill which it needs more than the trees, IMHO. Food and commerce it has in spades. Shields it does not. Other than that, full agreement. Frustrating to try and dotmap this bit of land, though.

I think at the very least the first settler should be obvious, so I'll go ahead and deal with that. I don't anticipate a second settler on my turn, so...

(0) 2550 BC - Move out the warrior from Madrid and fortify on the cows. Madrid is of course unhappy and requires a 20% lux tax. Since it's going to grow next turn, and that citizen will ALSO be unhappy, I take the opportunity to move us up to 40%. We lose another -2 gpt for a whole turn. This may in fact be minor but better safe than sorry. Not entirely sure we need another warrior, but I'll decide on a settler or not next turn.

(IBT) - The Gepids attack, and suicide on our warrior, who loses no hp!

(1) 2510 BC - Madrid switches off the warrior to another settler, and everyone else drives around a bit. Lux tax goes back down, and we're at break even. Our worker runs on down to start roading his way to a luxurious, spicy lifestyle.

(2) 2470 BC - Barcelona is founded on pink/red dot. Our unit support jacks way way up, and we're suddenly making 4 gpt. Barcelona starts on a warrior.

(3) 2430 BC - Zzzz...

(4) 2390 BC - Zzzz...

(5) 2350 BC - Madrid cranks a settler, starts on another (famous last words, eh?). Not sure where to send said settler, but the north looks like the best bet for the moment, so that's where we'll be going. :weed: or not, I dunno.

(6) 2310 BC - Zzzz...

(IBT) - Well, the barbarians have Map Making, anyway. Maybe they'll trade?

(7) 2270 BC - Barcelona finishes a warrior, starts on a worker.

(8) 2230 BC - On second thought, I decide the idea of a fishing village up north would be a good idea, so I found Seville on Ky's green dot. The warrior that was up there doing camp supression moves in for garrison, and work begins on a worker.

(9) 2190 BC - Zzzz...

(10) 2150 BC - The barbs have horses now, and one of them is in range of Barcelona.

Notes: Barcelona's up for a worker next turn, and Madrid's up for a settler. That barb horse is kinda scary, so be careful with both units. The worker at Madrid will have the spices hooked up in 2 turns, which will keep the capitol happy, at any rate. We probably need to do that dotmap discussion before doing any more settling.

Speaking of settling, Madrid's being a nice little settler factory, and I for one don't see a lot of reason to switch it off of settlers for the time being. The next settler can probably just as well use the spare warrior in Madrid and the one in Seville for escort duty. Long term, somebody's going to need to start cranking warriors, but I'm not sure where.

Sciencewise, if we don't get to Map Making and boats ASAP, we are DEAD. I think we knew that, but I'll reiterate anyway. 40 turning everything, and being stuck on this rock...no. We need land that doesn't suck like you wouldn't believe.

Oh, random long-term exploration side note: We might want to get somebody down to that southernmost tip of land to check for fish/whales. Would muchly influence settlement down there, thinking.

And lastly, I'm not sure how much of my talking here is particularly needed, but I feel compelled to offer it up anyway. If you'd rather I'd not, lemme know. I'm new at this, dontcha know.

Look ma! A turn!

(man, that easy file upload thing needs some serious help...)

Roster:
Griselda - On deck
Kylearan - ? What ?
Dwip
6GenTexan - UP

Hi Dwip, good to have you in the team: Nice set of turns, and your report is funny as always!

The babas have horses and galleys already? Then the AIs have probably met each other, it won't take long for the first wonder completion message then...

Madrid pumping settlers from now on is one option - this would probably help to get rid of the scary barbarians soon. The other option would be to build a cheap temple now (to get some culture going, which will help relationships later!) and to let Madrid grow some to produce settlers faster, maybe on a 5->3 cycle or somesuch. This would also help research a bit, after writing@min comes in. I'm not sure which option is best here, I just wanted to mention it. A propos research: I'd recommend researching some "cheap" tech before tackling map making, as map making probably will need a long time and our cities need something they can produce in the meantime (after temples, that is)! Maybe bronze working, for spears? About being DEAD if we don't get map making: Maybe the AIs find us before we have our first galley out; I think we're only dead if the rest of the world is out of galley range.

Great that workers are constructed already! Only problem will be protecting them, but they will help tremendously.

On the dotmap: Your dotmap suspiciously looks like my second-to-last attempt. I discarded it because your white dot looked like a sorry location for a city, but I can see the advantage of your layout as well, so I hope I'm not the one who has to decide this...

And yes, I for one think your talking is needed here - that's why I've finally decided to get into SG business in the first place!

-Kylearan

Wow, you guys are moving pretty quickly. If I might comment just a little bit on the opening plays:

(16) 3200 BC - Here's when I realize there's no line of irrigation for the game. I don't want to chop the forest and leave that tile chopped and unimproved while I go get some water, so I move the worker back down to the roaded forest. Sorry!

Missing a line of irrigation is easy; even I still sometimes do that. But, you should have chopped that forest anyway while the worker was there. Game sitting on a bare grassland does produce 3 food in despotism, still breaking past the tile penalty and speeding your city's growth which is everything in the early game. And of course, chopping before roading saves worker turns overall.

By my count, Madrid can make +5 food surplus between the cattle and the game; it should be growing every two turns (farm workers after you're done with settlers) from here to the Middle Ages.

Kylearan: I agree that writing is very important for map making, but it needs 40 turns even at maximum science, and I think that won't change in the near future. The editor says writing needs two times the beakers needed for the wheel, and the wheel needs 32 turns at 5 beakers for us. . . I change research to minimum - I hope that's not in your eyes!

Spot-on analysis! One further detail - you will save up quite a pile of gold while doing that minimum research, which can be used to fund deficit research on Map Making, and to buy techs.

First settler to pink/red dot is also a great move; getting a second site up and running as a settler farm is one of the best things you can do in the early game. Have it build a granary soon; if the city will reach size 7 before the granary would finish, whip that granary.

Oh, and prepare to have absolutely no resources on your little... I can't even call it a rock, it's a sandbar.. (Me? Bitter about LK44? Naaaah....)

Just some unsolicited free advice, and it's worth what you paid for it

Good to be here. I think we've got a good team here - ought to put the to Deity, eh?

Hadn't thought about the meaning of horses and galleys, but yeah. Doesn't surprise me much.

Settlement: I'm not sure that I've ever tried the 5->3 route or anything else other than the "pump settlers out as fast as humanly possible" route. Can't really compare the two, though I guess I'd rather have more cities sooner than one good city, if that makes sense.

Cheap tech - didn't even think of that. Do we have any? I didn't check. We don't get cheaper follow-the-AI research until we MEET some AIs, so that's sort of out. Dunno. I guess I still like Map Making ASAP, because...

Because we need more land. We need more land in harsh, harsh ways, IMHO. And waiting for the AI to get to us leads the added risk that they get to the land before we do. Plus we'll get harbors, which will...help.

Of course, that will all backfire if it turns out we're stuck on our little rock until Magnetism, but if that happens, we've got bigger problems than going straight to Map Making.

Workers - My habitual build order is defense->worker for new cities, so I just did what came naturally. <shrug>

Dotmap - I figured anything I did would be something you did. Ah well. Great minds, or something? The more I think about it, though, the less I like my idea, and the more I like yours. One exception - move the eastern fishing vill to where my purple dot location is now to salvage the grassland. Otherwise, we can get away with just following what you've got. And yeah. Glad somebody else is going to make the settlement decisions.

Go team !
Will be supporting (and annoying) you from the sidelines
Welcome to RBP Land !

ps : no rivers ?

While we're here.

First settler to pink/red dot is also a great move; getting a second site up and running as a settler farm is one of the best things you can do in the early game. Have it build a granary soon; if the city will reach size 7 before the granary would finish, whip that granary.

Click to expand...

What exactly are the benefits of doing it this way? I ask, since I generally settler farm the capitol and build up the outlying areas first. It would seem to me that Madrid, with its granary already in place, would be a better farm than Barcelona, at least for the moment.

And eventually this thread'll catch up to those spammers over in B, hrm?

Hi T-Hawk, thanks for the comments! Although the idea of getting a second settler-farm city is kinda moot: When it will have built a granary and is ready to pump, I guess this little rock is crowded already... Oh, and you made me curious about LK44, I guess I will read it tomorrow.

Thanks Skyfish, I didn't notice that we lack rivers...I guess there's one more reason to get off our rock: Hoover!

Of course you're right, Dwip, that we need map making ASAP, maybe our cities can bide their time by producing workers in the meantime, when all have finished their temples. Regarding your question to T-Hawk: I think he means Barcelona to be an *additional* settler factory, not replacing Madrid as one, but until we have galleys soon, this won't be needed, unfortunately.

And while dotmapping this has given me serious headache, I do not want to even start thinking about a location for our FP...

But maybe we have at least saltpeter and oil in our deserts. Well, if not, all I can say is that I do like challenges!

-Kylearan

I'd wager that Barcelona will still get up to speed with a granary soon enough to build settlers for two or three sites in the southeast before Madrid pumps enough settlers to do so. And even if not, you'll need workers too, at least 16 I'd say. Madrid could cut over to every-other-turn worker production (that's BIG in despotism) while Barcelona functions as a six-turn settler producer for the last few areas.

I'll try and shut up now and let you guys play your game...

I've Got It.

Let's see what I can do.

The time has come for the inhabitants of Spain to choose a new leader from amongst the warriors protecting our great land. One among them rises above the rest and is now and for ever will be known as "El Jefe".

As I look out on my land, I sees a great need to find more. So I instructs the elder to continue their quest to find the means to leave our home island.

Since projects in Madrid and Barcelona are about to complete, I direct the citizens to new lands to change wasted shields to more income.

Before the sun sets on my first day, I see the smoke of a rival nation rising off in the SE. We must seek them out so I hope to found a city on the tip of our island to draw them to us.

0) 2150BC Start moving warrior out of Seville since no Barbs can pop up on the point and it will be a long time before it has a pop of 2.

1) 2110BC Madrid: Settler--->Temple....want it to grow more before switching back to Settlers. Barcelona: Worker--->Worker....5 to grow & 5 for Worker. 2nd Barb camp appears on the tip of the NE peninsula. Send Worker and 2 Warriors from Barc to cattle. Move Settler and Both Warriors from Madrid to wards Brown dot on W coast. Spices are now connected.

2) 2070BC Start Barc worker on road first(We're Commercial). Fortify one warrior with worker and send the other towards the hills SW of town since the Barb horsey headed W. Spice worker is headed to our game square N of Madrid.

3) 2030BC Settler reaches spot with one warrior. I hit the wrong key and the other separated to find his own path. Barb horsey is now on hills E of our new town site. Near Barc, warrior reaches hill top over looking Barb camp.

IBT – Barb horsey attacks our Warrior/Settler in the forest from plain and wins, setting back our nations growth.

4) 1990BC Change Madrid from Temple to Settler both due in 4. Start clearing Game tile, shields will help speed Madrid's Temple or Barracks the next leader decides to build. Seeking revenge, the Wayward Warrior defeats the injured horsey. Unfortunately, his compatriot from Barc does no damage assaulting the Barb encampment, while a new horsey rides down from the N.

5) 1950BC Barc settler completes road, starts irrigation. Wayward Warrior heads to Hills S of Madrid to see farther into the Barb wastelands to the S.

6) 1910BC Barc Settler—>Warrior Move to join neighbor working cattle. Wayward Warrior reaches hills to see a Barb Warrior on the other side.

IBT – Barb Warrior heads back towards camp while Barb horsey approaches Madrid.

7) 1870BC Nothing

IBT – Barb attacks Madrid and defeats our Warrior and delays our Settler 4 turns. The unknown tribe of Iroquois have built The Oracle in Salamanca. Barb warrior approaches the Wayward Warrior.

8) 1830BC Seville Worker--->Warrior moves S to start road to Madrid Barc workers complete irrigation, moves to hill with escort to mine/road to add shields to city. Bump Lux to 10% to put 3rd pop in Madrid to work.

IBT – The Wayward Warrior defeats Barb warrior.

9) 1790BC The Wayward Warrior heads back to Madrid.

10) 1750BC Nothing

Looking back upon his tenure as Leader, El Jefe realizes that his only contribution to this society was a greatly increased back account. Quietly, he slips out of town to seek vengence on the Barbarians who ruined his tenure.

I was able to up load the file to the server but I'm not sure how to attach it to a post.

It is on the File server under:

RPB1-A_1750BC.zip

Let's see if I can get this posted before I lose my connection again. (note- I lost the connection after typing only a paragraph here, so I'll post quick when it comes back on, before I check for new posts in the thread)

The dotmaps look good, but I was thinking that we should move Kylearan's brown dot one SE onto the desert tile. That puts a hill and a desert by Madrid to use, which is nice, and actually reduces overlap with Madrid. It increases overlap a bit with lime green dot, but that also should be OK as long as we don't let the fishing village end up with control over lime-green-dot's tiles (especially if we're moving the fishing village to the desert).

I don't have a good feel for the bar situation right now since I haven't been able to look at the saves, but if our little warrior guys can take out the camp to the south, we may have enough, or at least nearly enough, to light up our little sandbar and avoid new camps altogether. It's a shame we can't even build archers, but I do think that mapmaking is a bigger priority for us.

While planning for the FP might be , at least we'll have enough cities for the FP!

-Griselda

Wow, back to me already?

The address of your turn is generally http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/
plus add your filename at the end.

Every now and then they make a new uploads folder, so if it doesn't seem to work at some point check and see if your file's in /uploads5/

I was able to find your save with the info you provided, which is what counts.

I've only had a quick chance to look around so far tonight, so my post isn't going to be terribly deep or thorough, sorry.

If you misclick and send a unit somewhere you didn't mean to send it, that's plenty of justification for a reload, from the autosave if nothing else. In this case, reloading might just have meant that the bar horsie needed *two* turns to kill our settler instead of one, but it might have saved the settler altogether.

I'm kinda thinking that we may want to go ahead and found a city way down in the SW now, because at least that way we shouldn't have any more camps pop up. The trick, of course, will be getting a settler down there safely. I wonder if a 3-warrior escort would be enough?

Anyway, then, all we have to do is polish off the current bars before the AI get to the middle ages and explode them on us.

The science advisor still says we're moderately advanced. I won't be happy until the AI have the IQ of a carrot, though!

I'll probably get a chance to play tomorrow, but it might be until Friday. We'll see what RL holds...

-Griselda

Deity barbs strike again... Maybe we really do need Barcelona to be a second settler farm after all. I can hear its population demonstrating on the streets, chanting "Granary! Granary!"...

A quick note to 6thGenTexan: If you accidently hit a wrong key, I think it's okay to reload and replay the turn in question - after all, it wasn't a tactical but a GUI mistake you made. But I'm sure we'll recover from the loss of that settler, no problem there.

I suggest trying to attack barb camps with at least two warriors, so that it can be finished off if the first attacker did some damage before dying. And if a camp is near one of our dots, we could just settle there to safely defeat it.

Good point about my brown dot. That even makes the way to it, over the hills, safer for our settler.

-Kylearan