DG4 Discussion - Const: Article K

Our current Article K based upon the DG2 Constitution:

K. Game actions will be played out during a public turn chat.

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I know I can certanly agree to this article .

I think we should allow the DP to play offline preturns and take other actions (such as a couple that I took during my presidency, like investigating Berlin) that do not involve pressing the button. However, I would be in favor of requiring the DP to conduct all game actions involving hitting the button and going beyond the preturn during a public turnchat. It may, however, be better to codify this in the CoL rather than the constitution.

Originally posted by Bootstoots
I think we should allow the DP to play offline preturns and take other actions (such as a couple that I took during my presidency, like investigating Berlin) that do not involve pressing the button. However, I would be in favor of requiring the DP to conduct all game actions involving hitting the button and going beyond the preturn during a public turnchat. It may, however, be better to codify this in the CoL rather than the constitution.

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Err, I can agree to this. But would I trust the DP to do a offline preturn.

Also, an Offline preturn will be helpfull if the Civilization gets a bit larger that requires a half an hour of Tedious Build Queues and Worker orders.

Preturns during Term 8 of DG2 would take hours on end. Even with much shorter preturns during the last term of this demogame, I must say that doing the preturns was the most annoying part of being DP to me, overall.

BTW, I usually set the build queues offline the night before the chat.

I can sypmathise on that part .

I am not convinced that this section is necessary. As Bootstoots suggested, we could even move any text related to this into the CoL.

I think that gameplay procedure should be mentioned, if not defined, in the Constitution. It is also the perfect place to add K.1, which would be the standard "do not play the save" passage that currently exists in the CoL.

Some questions to help us along:

- Should we require that all moves be played during a turnchat?

- Is there ever a circumstance that warrants a private gameplay session?

- Do we want to allow the President the option of "quick chats" ie brief info-gathering sessions to support a longer turnchat thereafter?

Ill agree to keep this and to add an addition for "non-button pushing things", like boots's example of the investigation of Berlin or big preturns.

in response:
-Not all. For doing preturns, we should state that they are allowed to be done. The DP should post some sort of statement like "There will be an off-line preturn done prior to the chat" for this to be allowed.
-I cant think of any off the top of my head.
-Yes. As long as its stated, like what boots did whenever he held one. Always said "This will be a quick-chat"

We need to consider allowing the option of no-chat play sessions, or everyone who cannot access a chat for any reason is automatically excluded from being the DP.

OTOH, my personal preference is that there has to be a chat as long as "hell hasn't frozen over"...

Originally posted by DaveShack
We need to consider allowing the option of no-chat play sessions, or everyone who cannot access a chat for any reason is automatically excluded from being the DP.

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Quite honestly, I had never thought of that DS, very interesting point. Also, if we have a person that does not generally have 3-4 hours open in a row (kids, life, etc), allowing off-line turns would permit them to run for President. In addition, if IRC is down for some reason, no chat can be held under the current law. Also, I believe there are other DGs that use an off-line session and do quite well.

As a side note, what if the DP decides to use another chat mechanism, other than IRC? I would point out that the requirement would be satisfied so long as the information was made publically available in a reasonable manner. Just something to think about ...

This would make a nice question during the debates for the President - how will you run your game play sessions?

I think the section should state the usual (Thou shalt not play the save ..) rule,that the DP is responsible for playing the save, and maintaining a log of actions during the save, and that the DP is selected according to the Chain of Command. We'll define the CoC in the CoL.

Maybe something like this:

"Game Actions will be played during a Game Play Session by the Designated Player. No citizen may play the save at any other time, except to determine peace offers. The Designated Player shall be selected according to the Chain of Command."

-- Ravensfire

All game actions should be done in public chats, including preturn actions. There is no justifiable reason for the DP to require a closed session for any reason. Unruly or disruptive citizens can always be devoiced or kicked or even banned.

Nonetheless, this needs to be polled. Options should include status quo, public/private at president's option, and all private.

I think it is nice to be able to jump into a chat and follow along with the DP as he plays the turns, but I don't think it should be a requirement. Most citizens don't attend the chat anyway. My biggest issue with Game Play Sessions is that the DP post a good summary quickly.

@Forty - I think you should also include an option for all actions to be conducted publicly, excepting preturns, which may be online or offline at the president's option.

@DS and ravensfire - I can't think of a situation where a DP wouldn't be able to access IRC at all (the IRC network can go down, but if that happens we can simply switch to another network temporarily). I also really think that the ability to set aside 3-4 hours every few days for a turnchat should be a requirement; I don't want to have a President who plays a few turns a night offline or something like that.

Originally posted by Bootstoots

@DS and ravensfire - I can't think of a situation where a DP wouldn't be able to access IRC at all (the IRC network can go down, but if that happens we can simply switch to another network temporarily).

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What if my ISP goes down when I am about to start the turn chat? Or I have a software problem?

Originally posted by Bootstoots
I also really think that the ability to set aside 3-4 hours every few days for a turnchat should be a requirement; I don't want to have a President who plays a few turns a night offline or something like that.

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Setting aside 3-4 hours may not be a problem. But for some of us, 3-4 contiguous hours could be a problem. If a public turn chat is a requirement, I would have to say I would probably never run for President.

Originally posted by zorven
What if my ISP goes down when I am about to start the turn chat? Or I have a software problem?

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In that case, you shouldn't be playing the save. First, you won't have access to the forums to obtain the most recent instructions, and second, it is possible that someone in the chain of command will assume that you are absent and assume the role of DP for the scheduled chat (resulting in two saves).

Originally posted by zorven
Setting aside 3-4 hours may not be a problem. But for some of us, 3-4 contiguous hours could be a problem. If a public turn chat is a requirement, I would have to say I would probably never run for President.

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There are other options available to the President than simply scheduling 2 turn chats each week that last between 3-4 or even 10 hours in length. In fact, as the DP, you would have the option to stop the chat at your discretion.

Turn chats provide an excellent medium for the citizens to observe their elected officials in action. The fact that this is a constitutional article is significant to me. Removing this clause, and/or privatizing the playing of the game, would, in my opinion, significantly infringe on the basic rights of the citizenry.

Keep in mind, that I am not advocating that the DP be subject to the whims of the attendees. As far as I care, the DP could devoice all attendees except those he/she desires to hear from at a specific time. However, the citizenry must have the right to observe these proceedings. It is a failsafe to ensure that our elected officials are acting honorably and in the best interests of those that elected them.

Originally posted by FortyJ
In fact, as the DP, you would have the option to stop the chat at your discretion.

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Can I then resume the chat at my discretion?

Originally posted by FortyJ
Turn chats provide an excellent medium for the citizens to observe their elected officials in action. The fact that this is a constitutional article is significant to me. Removing this clause, and/or privatizing the playing of the game, would, in my opinion, significantly infringe on the basic rights of the citizenry.

Keep in mind, that I am not advocating that the DP be subject to the whims of the attendees. As far as I care, the DP could devoice all attendees except those he/she desires to hear from at a specific time. However, the citizenry must have the right to observe these proceedings. It is a failsafe to ensure that our elected officials are acting honorably and in the best interests of those that elected them.

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I see no difference if citizens get an "action report" live or in summary after the fact, as long as the information is provided by the DP in a short period of time after the turn. In fact I would prefer better summaries and no live chat because that would take less of my time to see what happened.

Originally posted by Bootstoots
@DS and ravensfire - I can't think of a situation where a DP wouldn't be able to access IRC at all (the IRC network can go down, but if that happens we can simply switch to another network temporarily). I also really think that the ability to set aside 3-4 hours every few days for a turnchat should be a requirement; I don't want to have a President who plays a few turns a night offline or something like that.

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Why SHOULD that be a requirement for President? You're telling me that if we have a great candidate, highly skilled at the game, great at starting and leading discussions, but doesn't have the time available that you would reject them out of hand as President? Ridiculous! As with zorven, I will probably not be in a position to run for President again.

This ongoing fixation with all session must be chats is reducing the number of viable candidates for the office of President. That's nuts! This issue should be part of the Presidential campaign, not the Constitution. All that we should have here is that the DP must maintain and publish a log of their activities, nothing more.

-- Ravensfire

Originally posted by FortyJ
In that case, you shouldn't be playing the save. First, you won't have access to the forums to obtain the most recent instructions, and second, it is possible that someone in the chain of command will assume that you are absent and assume the role of DP for the scheduled chat (resulting in two saves).

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Assuming both the forums and IRC are down, I would agree with you. Assuming that only IRC is down, I do not.

There are other options available to the President than simply scheduling 2 turn chats each week that last between 3-4 or even 10 hours in length. In fact, as the DP, you would have the option to stop the chat at your discretion.

Turn chats provide an excellent medium for the citizens to observe their elected officials in action. The fact that this is a constitutional article is significant to me. Removing this clause, and/or privatizing the playing of the game, would, in my opinion, significantly infringe on the basic rights of the citizenry.

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What basic right? I've had turn chats where there was 1 other person there! One! Ask Rik about the chat he ran for me - he literally had a monologue for most of it!

The people have a right to have a summary of the events of the session - that's it. A chat log, a written summary, whatever. The DP must give them a log of what happened. Some of the chat logs get so filled with useless garbage that reading them is difficult at best.

Keep in mind, that I am not advocating that the DP be subject to the whims of the attendees. As far as I care, the DP could devoice all attendees except those he/she desires to hear from at a specific time. However, the citizenry must have the right to observe these proceedings. It is a failsafe to ensure that our elected officials are acting honorably and in the best interests of those that elected them.

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So if a DP devoices everyone, and types a log of what happens, what's the difference between that and an off-line session? None! The game log itself, and the analysis of citizens and leaders of the various saves is the ONLY failsafe for verifying the actions of leaders. Chat logs can be edited, heck the DP can flat-out lie during the session and NOBODY WOULD KNOW. A DP can very easily act dishonorably, and you wouldn't know until the end of the session when the final save is posted. A live chat CANNOT prevent such an action any better than an offline session.

-- Ravensfire

That's where you're wrong, Ravensfire. Your arguement has some good points, but is basically flawed in respect to comparing off-line, closed-door sessions to publically open Turn Chats as equal. Before I get into the details of my stance, I will once again say that t/c's have always been a part of the Demogame, and Presidents who lead their countrymen through a t/c is a tradition that should not be broken. I make this point especially for those "possible Presidents" who wouldn't really be able to find the time to fulfill the responsibilities of the Office this day or week, or even this Term. If you want to be President, be prepared to run open Turn Chats. Turn Chats are a major part of the game.

The key to a successful Presidency is keeping your constituency happy. In the game play portion of the Demogame this is done by making the correct moves at the correct times, asking the suitable questions at the appropriate times, and keeping the people well informed of almost every (if not, every) aspect of the turns played.

Let's start with pre-turn Instructions. Over the course of Three Demogames, I've seen President's just plain forget to do an Instruction. Wether that be a single Instruction from a Leader's post in the TCI or simply skipping a Leader's post altogether, thinking it was already done. These are horrendous mistakes and stepping through the Instructions in a t/c chat log can not only help alleviate the problems I listed above, but if they do occur (intentionally or not) , then the DP's actions are fully documented and witnessed by the public. Even if there are only one or two people at the t/c, I would have the opportunity to be one of those people and hold the DP accountable for things stated in the chat log. Very seldom is there only one person, such as the DP, logging the chat. Whether they are there or not, people log a chat room on a daily basis, so a back-up copy is normally available. But in closed door sessions, all of this would not be allowed. The public would have to put full trust in the President. This is not the Czargame, this is the Demogame. (I have more to say, but I was just brought some delicious food, later)