Tech Tree Discussion

Arakhor said:
Well, even if you set "Deception" as a column 3 tech, descended from Language and level with Cooperation, I still think that you're stretching "human psychology as a tech" almost to breaking point. Behavioural modernity obviously was a massive thing (and what literally sets us apart from animals and early humans), but given that we're already representing those with Language and Cooperation, I think it becomes very difficult to justify such high granularity of tech "research".
Click to expand...

The plan is to make it a column 2 tech and situate Deceit between Language and Cooperation. We needed to learn how to defy natural cooperative behaviors to bring cooperative behaviors to conscious consideration. I'm also thinking it would be pertinent to add Deceit as an additional prereq for trapping.

Additionally, since we already ARE using psychological elements of Behavioral Modernity in the early stages of the tree, why would it be a problem to expand on that a bit more, particularly when Cooperation is already chock full of every reason in the world to go for it?

I guess I don't see a 'breaking point' existing here, only room to improve the model.
 
Well, I suppose that the proof of the pudding would be in what goodies the Deception tech would provide. Visually, I think the best place for that tech would be at (2,15).
 
Arakhor said:
Well, I suppose that the proof of the pudding would be in what goodies the Deception tech would provide. Visually, I think the best place for that tech would be at (2,15).
Click to expand...

I was debating 16 or 15. I can go with 15 np.
 
I'd definitely champion the term Deception over Deceit, because (to me, at least) the first sounds more like a psychological development, whereas the second seems more like "sharp practice" instead.
 
Arakhor said:
I'd definitely champion the term Deception over Deceit, because (to me, at least) the first sounds more like a psychological development, whereas the second seems more like "sharp practice" instead.
Click to expand...

Fair 'nuff.
 
Thunderbrd said:
This was from the Crime modmod thread Joseph's got going. I also wanted to breakdown some other adjustments I'm wanting to make for full discussion.

x2
Add Tech 'Original Sin' (or 'Deception') at x2/y16
Add Watcher Unit unlocked at said tech.
Add Buildup (Crime Fighting) I unlocked at said tech.
Add Pariah Unit unlocked at said tech. (first 1pt crime unit - would love to make it impossible for him to stay inside the lands of his owner as he's an outcast)
Move the first crime generating promo here.


x3
Add Buildup (Disease Control) I to be unlocked at Herbalism.
Alternatively add Buildup (Crime Fighting) I and the Watcher (name is up for debate) to Cooperation as opposed to Original Sin/Deception. Watcher COULD thus take on a building prereq of the Watch Post (I think) building that unlocks at Cooperation.
Move Policing I to a later tech. See below.


x8
Move tech Conduct here to x8/y19 with prereqs of Games and Cultural Identity
Add Policing I to Conduct and Move Policing II further down the tech tree - see below.
Move Build Up (Crime Fighting) II further down the tech tree - see below.
Add Enforcers unit here (Bldg Prereq of Elder Council). Upgrade of the Watcher unit. (Similar upgrade to Wise Woman upgrading to Healer.)
Healer is here at Naturopathy already - good
Disease Control I at Naturopathy already - good


x24
Remove Town Watch from Masonry, see below.


x25
Dualism was here but since it was moved I've adjusted the plan.
Medicine Man (New Human Healer (primarily an upgrade in disease control rather than actual unit healing) fits in at Folk Medicine, which currently has no benefit for non-Asian civs otherwise.)
Move Disease Control II here at Folk Medicine
Build Up (Disease Control) II here at Folk Medicine


x27
Patrols (New Law Enforcement Unit at Dualism)
Move Policing II here to Dualism
Build Up (Crime Fighting) II at Dualism


x35
New Tech: Law Enforcement at y15
Preq Code of Laws and Military Training
Town Watch moves here to Law Enforcement (and is adjusted to match proper progression)
Policing III opens up at Law Enforcement
Build Up (Crime Fighting) III opens up at Law Enforcement


x36
Apothecary unlocks at Ancient Medicine currently - good
Disease Control III moved to open up at Ancient Medicine
Build Up (Disease Control) III moved to open up at Ancient Medicine
Replace Code of Laws Preqs on techs that have it with Law Enforcement Preq


x44
Move Guard from Engineering


x46
Move Guard here to Charters
Move Policing IV here to Charters
Build Up (Crime Control) IV to Charters


x50
Surgeon opens up at Anatomy as is - good
Move Disease Control IV here to Anatomy
Build Up (Disease Control) IV here to Anatomy


x53
Remove Policing IV and Build Up (Crime Fighting) IV (placed earlier)
Remove Disease Control III (placed earlier)

x54
City Guard opens up here and I intend not to move it.


x56
Remove Disease Control IV (placed earlier)


x58
New Technology: Elixirs and Tonics (x58/y17)
Preqs Microbiology and Biology
New bldg:Snake Oil Salesman
Add to Modern Sanitation Preqs
New Unit: Doctor at Elixirs and Tonics
Disease Control V at Elixirs and Tonics
Build Up (Disease Control) V at Elixirs and Tonics


x59
Move Sheriff


x62
New Tech: Deputization (or Deputies) (x62/y11)
Preq of Rep Democ & Military Tradition
Move Sheriff and Outlaw here from Steam Power (Outlaw maintains prereq of Cavalry Tactics)
Move Sheriff's Office here from Railroad
Add to prereqs for Firefighting and Wildlife Conservation
Policing V at Deputization
Build Up (Crime Control) V at Deputization
Moving Sheriff here to Deputization


x68
Medic at Medicine is here (good)
Disease Control VI (move here to Medicine)


x69
Police Squad is already here at Criminology (good)
Policing VI at Criminology (new promo)


x70
Police Car is already at Motorized Transportation (good)
Ambulance I is already at Motorized Transportation (good)


x75
Police APC is already at Mechanical Warfare (Good)


x76
Ambulance II is already at Logistics (Good)


x80
Add Police Helicopter (new unit) to Vertical Flight
Policing VII (new promo) at Vertical Flight
Add Modern Healthcare prereq to Medevac Helicopter and Modern Medevac Helicopter
Disease Control VII (new promo) at Modern Health Care


x84
Ensure Modern Medevac Helicopter unlocks here at Modern Warfare


x87
Remove Policing V and Build Up (Crime Fighting) V (they've been moved to earlier in the tree at this point.)
Add new Swat Team unit to Forensics
Add Policing VIII to Forensics


x90
Disease Control VIII at Bioinformatics
New Unit: Medical Lab Tech at Bioinformatics


x94/x95
Move Police Mech to Disaster Robots but retain Mechs prereq
Add Policing IX at Disaster Robots


x105
Medevac Dropship at Skyroads +
Disease Control IX


Going beyond this plan into Disease Control X and Crime Control X somewhere in the Galactic should wait til more development takes place there but we should be on the lookout for the perfect opportunity one more upgrade to both anti-disease and anti-crime units. That would round it out in finale imo.

As I hope is visible here, the point is to try to increase the anti-crime and anti-disease in a more gradual and somewhat comparable manner to each other throughout the tech tree.

There's also a solid plan in this to get unit upgrades to pop at the same time further anti-crime and anti-disease promos are unlocked - makes it much easier to upgrade everything and since they are now woken by doing so, you can promote those that you've been holding off on promoting. Might even teach the AI to do this as part of the project ;)

Another side to this project would then be to work on what DH and I have been talking about for some time now which is the more advanced law vs criminal units inside cities dynamics. And I'd like to also now circle back to fleshing out the Advanced Disease system into an Advanced Properties system as AIAndy suggested long ago. Would work nicely to go in tangent with these developments.

All is open to discussion.
Click to expand...

Looks great. As a general rule I think gameplay would improve if the cost (in gold per turn) of Policing units was increased. (or alternatively they could consume food or productivity) as a way to make the cost benefit analysis more important
 
MacCoise said:
Looks great. As a general rule I think gameplay would improve if the cost (in gold per turn) of Policing units was increased. (or alternatively they could consume food or productivity) as a way to make the cost benefit analysis more important
Click to expand...

If you increase the costs, especially in gold, you will definitely reduce the number you can "afford" to use. But the negative is your Crime will become even that much harder to control. You will run out of crime control bldgs at various times in different eras and run out of gold/turn to support your number of Policing units needed.

If my modmod gets incorporated into the Main C2C this will be even more so as I have reduced the minCrime levels (and redistributed so Ancient has more than 5 crimes now) and maxcrime level (now 1000 and not the previous 1500). You let Crime get over 300 you could be in for a tough period of time till you get it back under control.

JosEPh
 
Yeah, I don't know about you guys but I'm finding the gold balance in the mod to be getting fairly heavily weighted towards the 'challenging' side of the fence at the moment. I may not be too inclined to make them much MORE expensive, but they generally do, if I'm not mistaken, have an extra cost as it is so that extra cost will be put to full analysis as I'm going through planning out unit data on these.
 
Money seems to be better (i.e. in smaller supply) up until Mediaeval or so, at which point you still have tonnes of it around. The AI can be each sitting on tens of thousands of gold, with few opportunities to spend it all.
 
In my current test game with Crime modmod using SVN 8616, Emperor, Normal, PM Large map I've just hit the Ren Era and no one that I have met in that game has more than 4000+ treasury. There has been 2 major extended wars involving 5 of the 8 AI met so far and my self too. I can't generate enough gold to update older seasoned units so I've had to resort to killing them off so I can afford newer More advanced units.

JosEPh
 
So, I like the look of the new tech tree in rev 9132, but I have noticed a couple of issues. The attached file contains the Ceremony/Yoruba changes.

Ceremony still requires Ideograms, which is wholly unnecessary, as it also requires Board Games (for which Ideograms is a prerequisite as well). Furthermore, sending Ceremony from Board Games (and raising it to Y15) avoids the nasty "arrows behind techs" syndrome which I tried so hard to avoid and which someone has helpfully messed up again in the later Classical era. (Yoruba should be raised to Y15 as well to tidy things up.)

Canaanism still requires Polytheism, which is considerably to the right of it on the tech tree. This is still daft.

Why does Polytheism require Dualism and Stargazing and Sculpture and Resurrection? That seems excessive, to say the least.
 

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Arakhor said:
Canaanism still requires Polytheism, which is considerably to the right of it on the tech tree. This is still daft.
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It requires Polytheism because it is a Polytheistic religion. All polytheistic religions should be to the right of Polytheism.

Arakhor said:
Why does Polytheism require Dualism and Stargazing and Sculpture and Resurrection? That seems excessive, to say the least.
Click to expand...

Good question. The need is to make sure that techs are learnt in the approximate order they were on Earth with room for some variation. Converting from "or" to "and" may have been done to tidy up the tech tree. I would have thought Dualism and (Stargazing or Sculpture or Resurrection) would have been better but not ideal.

edit I can see no difference between your Yoruba tech and the one on the SVN. I am going to assume I am being dyslexic and go and get my morning coffee before looking again.
 
Canaanism is not to the right of Polytheism and never has been that I can recall. I imagine it's in its place right now because historically it probably contributed to Judaism.
 
The first polytheistic religion would've been Mesopotamianism, so in all reality, if its intended to be required for all polytheistic religions, which makes sense, it should be within the first 1 or 2 columns of the ancient era. That religious development would've been right on the heels of real city building. It could even potentially predate sedentary lifestyle. I had a sociology professor in college that believed that moving into sedentary lifestyle would've been impossible without this development. The reasoning was that life was actually easier for people in hunter/gatherer lifestyles and it was only by convincing the people that the 'gods' wanted us to make these changes that we were able to be motivated to do so.
 
Mesopotamianism is right at the start of the Ancient Era and presumably that was polytheistic too, even though it doesn't require that tech, but then the Ancient Era has always been inconsistent that way.
 
Definitely after Sedentary Lifestyle; we already have plenty of religious techs in the Prehistoric Era.
 
Arakhor said:
Definitely after Sedentary Lifestyle; we already have plenty of religious techs in the Prehistoric Era.
Click to expand...

There are even more in the Ancient. And I'm not suggesting we necessarily put another 'religion' before sed life, just, perhaps, as a prereq, polytheism itself (the IDEA of multiple gods before it forms into a fully structured religion itself).

Of course I say this without much evaluation of the tech tree and without looking at what poly opens up. This stance is purely based on a suggestion of historical accuracy according to some theories I've had shared with me.

It also would resolve DH's 'all polytheistic religions should require polytheism' statement since Meso should, as it is, be the first religion in the ancient era and almost immediately after sedentary lifestyle and would've clearly been the first polytheistic religion on Earth.
 
Well, the Ancient Era was the age of organised religion, I suppose. That's when most of our major religions are born.

I agree though, we'd probably want to look at the tech-tree and see how much would be affected by its change.
 
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