Starting as a tribe

Naokaukodem

Millenary King
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Messages
3,952
You would start as a tribe of hunter-gatherers.

There would be more tribes at start than civs in any civ up to date. (more like : civs + city-states + barbarians of Civ5)

There would be 4 major tech paths you could choose from at start, determining the type of faction you will become :

1) Hunter-Gatherers. You could improve but stay as so. It would be quite a futuristic / fantasy path, because there's no example of a truly modern (technologically) hunter-gatherers society on Earth. (apart from Hippies)

2) Sedentary. (first tech : agriculture) Much like every Civ up to date.

3) Pastoral. Basically this would be for military victory (possibly early ?) mainly, with alternate military techs.

4) City-States. One city. (? several colonies possible ?) Big bonuses.
 
Yes, indeed. This would break the absolute core position of the City concept in the game and open 2 or 3 more play styles which conform to history better :
I have been thinking also about pastoral civilisations. It always feels weird that the Huns and the Mongols, and the american indians, can only expand by settling a city first and then go after the horses. The great Nomadic empires on the eurasian steppes expanded because they united tribes in a large cavalry army and then went after the cities.

So with the pastoral lifestyle a game will unfold like Tribe -> migrate -> horses -> unite -> expansion -> tribute -> domination.

When a Tribe stays put it will have a camp (yurts, tipi's, etcetera) and control a Fat Hex of only one ring. Vegetation resources in that ring will be consumed in a certain time (the eadibles like wheat and luxury plants). The animal resources will provide less food after a number of turns. This will urge the tribe to move to fresh pastures and settle their camp again. The original claimed animal resources will trek with them as cattle herds and such.

A settler will create a new tribe, for less hammers than a sedentary settler. So one can make more tribes and grow/expand accordingly. The accumulation and spending of culture will have to be quite reworked, as there will be no buildings to generate culture, or maybe a few small ones, like a Totem. Will camps be able to grow beyond the first Fat Hex ring? If so will the extra extended area be lost when the tribe migrates? Or are the cultural borders dependend on the size and location of the Tribe's military?

I would say that a pastoral lifestile will not exclude the settlement of cities (e.g. Karakorum) if only to have the means to keep up with sedentary civilizations in later part of the game. How will science work for a pastoral civ? Will you have the means to research for gunpowder weapons, or can you only get them only by trade/steal/plunder? Note that the real-life Nomadic empires got eclipsed by Russia, China and the Americans at around 1750 - 1850, when the sedentary empires got more and more production muscle.
 
1) Hunter-Gatherers. You could improve but stay as so.

How would a hunter-gatherer society improve?

there's no example of a truly modern (technologically) hunter-gatherers society on Earth.

Ever wondered why that is? Have you also ever wondered why the few hunter-gatherer societies still in existence today only live in areas too marginal to be of value to civilized societies?

3) Pastoral. Basically this would be for military victory (possibly early ?) mainly, with alternate military techs.

This could work, but as you suggest it would only be a viable option in the early game. History shows that warring pastoral nomads tend to either be ultimately supplanted by sedentary societies, absorbed into sedentary societies, or become sedentary societies themselves post-conquest. Perhaps players could have the option of starting with a whole bunch of military units instead of starting with a settler, but as a pastoral nomadic society you would basically be forced to adopt an aggression-oriented strategy right from the start, otherwise the game is going to get very boring very quickly.

4) City-States. One city. (? several colonies possible ?) Big bonuses.

Isn't this just an OCC version of "sedentary"?
 
Interesting questions and ideas here so far. :)

Yes, indeed. This would break the absolute core position of the City concept in the game and open 2 or 3 more play styles which conform to history better :
I have been thinking also about pastoral civilisations. It always feels weird that the Huns and the Mongols, and the american indians, can only expand by settling a city first and then go after the horses. The great Nomadic empires on the eurasian steppes expanded because they united tribes in a large cavalry army and then went after the cities.

So with the pastoral lifestyle a game will unfold like Tribe -> migrate -> horses -> unite -> expansion -> tribute -> domination.

Yes, a definitely useful feature in the next Civ should be to be able to merge with several other civs. Merging a pastoral civ with a another pastoral civ should be easier though.

When a Tribe stays put it will have a camp (yurts, tipi's, etcetera) and control a Fat Hex of only one ring. Vegetation resources in that ring will be consumed in a certain time (the eadibles like wheat and luxury plants). The animal resources will provide less food after a number of turns. This will urge the tribe to move to fresh pastures and settle their camp again. The original claimed animal resources will trek with them as cattle herds and such.

Not sure if the fact you have to move your camps around pretty often would be fun. I'm more thinking about setting "waypoints", provisional camp locations that would constitute your territory.

A settler will create a new tribe, for less hammers than a sedentary settler. So one can make more tribes and grow/expand accordingly.

Not sure if you should be able to create "settlers" yourself... I imagine more a pastoral culture spreading, creating new pastoral tribes around you that you could join later.

But that could be a possibility.

The accumulation and spending of culture will have to be quite reworked, as there will be no buildings to generate culture, or maybe a few small ones, like a Totem. Will camps be able to grow beyond the first Fat Hex ring? If so will the extra extended area be lost when the tribe migrates? Or are the cultural borders dependend on the size and location of the Tribe's military?

Your territory should expand according to the number of people there is in your tribe. Maybe culture per population point ?

I would say that a pastoral lifestile will not exclude the settlement of cities (e.g. Karakorum) if only to have the means to keep up with sedentary civilizations in later part of the game. How will science work for a pastoral civ? Will you have the means to research for gunpowder weapons, or can you only get them only by trade/steal/plunder? Note that the real-life Nomadic empires got eclipsed by Russia, China and the Americans at around 1750 - 1850, when the sedentary empires got more and more production muscle.

I imagine the pastoral tech tree be only a hook in the main one. So, either you manage to win before you die, either you convert to sedentary, with all it means of lack of culture and science. (a way to delay defeat and maybe win with this additionnal time)

How would a hunter-gatherer society improve?

Pretty much the same than sedentary, except that they would be more careful of nature. A little like the "Earth" path of Alpha Centauri, even though I have no clue of what the tech tree would look like at say Middle Ages.

Ever wondered why that is? Have you also ever wondered why the few hunter-gatherer societies still in existence today only live in areas too marginal to be of value to civilized societies?

Well I won't start a debate on here, but "civilized" is about to question in your sentence, as well as "value".

This could work, but as you suggest it would only be a viable option in the early game. History shows that warring pastoral nomads tend to either be ultimately supplanted by sedentary societies, absorbed into sedentary societies, or become sedentary societies themselves post-conquest. Perhaps players could have the option of starting with a whole bunch of military units instead of starting with a settler, but as a pastoral nomadic society you would basically be forced to adopt an aggression-oriented strategy right from the start, otherwise the game is going to get very boring very quickly.

I imagine Pastoral Path to be a hook of the sedentary one (from Animal Husbandry to ???), so that it's just a way of playing for aggressive players. But, it wouldn't be "from the start", as Mongols for example put a certain time to "federate" before attacking the others.

Isn't this just an OCC version of "sedentary"?

Pretty much, yes, except that you would have bonuses for your only city, unless those bonuses are compased into the colony idea.
 
I would love to see something like this added in Civ VI. Not all civilizations really fit in the city founding system. If they could find some way to have alternate play styles that are fun and viable, that would be a huge improvement, I think.

For Civ V, I had some ideas for a barbarian civilization, where you can found new encampments in fog of war. Then having the ability to build simple buildings, but mostly just poop out a bunch of units to harass major civilizations. Pillaging tile improvements would give you additional resources to build encampents/buildings/units with etc.
 
This ties in with something I've been thinking about a lot, lately: the fact that Civilization's starting sate of 4000 BCE comes after a lot of the 'technologies' researched in the game were already discovered.

Specifically, in addition to Agriculture, Animal Husbandry (domestication of cattle, sheep, dogs, among others), Pottery, Archery, coastal boating were all discovered in some parts of the world, in some cases long, long before the 'start date' of the game.

So, why not differentiate 'civilizations' at the start by differentiating their starting technology or technologies?

A group/tribe that has domesticated large food animals will follow the herds/flocks instead of settling down and farming. That makes them nomads or pastoralists automatically. A group that starts on the coast with islands visible off-shore will be boating/fishing/whaling long before 4000 BCE (Crete, an island visible from other islands visible from shore, was settled about 30,000 years ago!).
If the surroundings are rich enough, hunter-gatherers, with no other 'food' technologies like agriculture or animal domestication, can develop a fairly sophisticated 'civilization': the hunter-gatherers of the American Pacific Northwest, because of the extreme richness of the environment, had wooden plank houses, intricate weaving (basketry) net fishing, elaborate totems ('monuments') and the Haida peoples' dugout boats for whaling, made from 8 - 10 foot diameter cedars, were almost as big as triremes! How many 'technologies' that currently have to be researched in Civ V does that make?

Nomads did not wander at random. Groups moved about with the animals within a pretty well-defined territory, so using the current model of the Shoshone in Civ V, they would start with a larger territory, instead of cities build nothing larger than camps or villages. These could be the centers for some 'technologies' not usually associated with nomads: the Scythian nomads of southern Russia had villages that produced advanced gold and bronze metal-work and elaborately decorated woven cloth and clothing. They had also domesticated the horse long before the 'civilizations' of the Middle East, and produced very fine saddlery and tack for the horses - and, of course, also the composite bow for mounted archery well before the 'Classical' period.

Instead of the current broken model where you pick a Civilization to play, then get a starting position that makes no sense at all (how many of you have played Mongols in a jungle? Or Polynesians starting inland?), why not turn it around:

You start with a place on the map. Based on the resources/terrain in the starting area, you pick a starting technology: Agriculture (look, I got Wheat!), Animal Husbandry (follow them Cows!), Boating (with fishing). Anyone starting with Animal Husbandry, will be pastoralists from the start: larger starting area, and instead of a single city your 'Settler' or Tribe can establish up to 2 Camps - possibly one on a river for the fish, one in the hills near a mineral resource. Because of the starting materials you have to work with: leather, bone, sinew, you are going to get technologies like Archery, Leather armor, and even Composite Bows pretty early. In addition, your 'workers' can not only establish 'pastures' for the animals, they can establish new herds/flocks with new pastures in your territory - because animals breed and there is no reason I can't breed cattle or horses or sheep anywhere that the terrain is suitable, if I have the technologies and the need.

Note that this sequence can apply to any group: Civilizations, Barbarians, or what is now called City States. It just depends on how they develop later. Historically, the 'nomad' pastoral groups either settled down, usually by conquering some settled group and taking over their cities, like the Mongols, Persians, Medes or Turks, or got swept away when the settled groups got weapons they could not match in their camps: muskets and cannon.

But, for a good portion of the game, up to the end of the current 'Renaissance' Era in Civ V, a pastoral 'civ' can be competitive. Playing it, you just have to know when to 'break' and get access to the Settled Technologies, so you can develop like the Seljuk/Ottoman Turks, and not be swept away like the Lakotah or Alans.
 
So, why not differentiate 'civilizations' at the start by differentiating their starting technology or technologies?

This sounds so much like something that have already been done (in Civ4 for example) that I'm unsure of the real impact it would have, as it has very little impact (flavorfully at least) by the past.

A group/tribe that has domesticated large food animals will follow the herds/flocks instead of settling down and farming. That makes them nomads or pastoralists automatically. A group that starts on the coast with islands visible off-shore will be boating/fishing/whaling long before 4000 BCE (Crete, an island visible from other islands visible from shore, was settled about 30,000 years ago!).
If the surroundings are rich enough, hunter-gatherers, with no other 'food' technologies like agriculture or animal domestication, can develop a fairly sophisticated 'civilization': the hunter-gatherers of the American Pacific Northwest, because of the extreme richness of the environment, had wooden plank houses, intricate weaving (basketry) net fishing, elaborate totems ('monuments') and the Haida peoples' dugout boats for whaling, made from 8 - 10 foot diameter cedars, were almost as big as triremes! How many 'technologies' that currently have to be researched in Civ V does that make?

How does it translate ingame ? Should we start way before 4000 BC, or having several types of civs to choose from (with the different techs), or having no civ choice and adapt as soon as we settle the first city ?

Nomads did not wander at random. Groups moved about with the animals within a pretty well-defined territory, so using the current model of the Shoshone in Civ V, they would start with a larger territory, instead of cities build nothing larger than camps or villages. These could be the centers for some 'technologies' not usually associated with nomads: the Scythian nomads of southern Russia had villages that produced advanced gold and bronze metal-work and elaborately decorated woven cloth and clothing. They had also domesticated the horse long before the 'civilizations' of the Middle East, and produced very fine saddlery and tack for the horses - and, of course, also the composite bow for mounted archery well before the 'Classical' period.

That could be a nice starting point in order to define more the modern nomads. Although I fear that realistically, such tribes would be obliterated culturally, just by population pressure or conquest. (can nomads make armies ? I think they are not numerous enough for that, unless we invent something totally new, but would it still be History related ? We could give it a try i guess (after all, well, Giant Death Robots...), especially if we lack of faction types, or just abandon it) Or, even if they are doomed, why not simulate them anyway ? They would be a factor of population and interaction on the map at start. And, if you are isolated, you could even reach the modern era with high techs ?

Instead of the current broken model where you pick a Civilization to play, then get a starting position that makes no sense at all (how many of you have played Mongols in a jungle? Or Polynesians starting inland?), why not turn it around:

You start with a place on the map. Based on the resources/terrain in the starting area, you pick a starting technology: Agriculture (look, I got Wheat!), Animal Husbandry (follow them Cows!), Boating (with fishing). Anyone starting with Animal Husbandry, will be pastoralists from the start: larger starting area, and instead of a single city your 'Settler' or Tribe can establish up to 2 Camps - possibly one on a river for the fish, one in the hills near a mineral resource. Because of the starting materials you have to work with: leather, bone, sinew, you are going to get technologies like Archery, Leather armor, and even Composite Bows pretty early. In addition, your 'workers' can not only establish 'pastures' for the animals, they can establish new herds/flocks with new pastures in your territory - because animals breed and there is no reason I can't breed cattle or horses or sheep anywhere that the terrain is suitable, if I have the technologies and the need.

Note that this sequence can apply to any group: Civilizations, Barbarians, or what is now called City States. It just depends on how they develop later. Historically, the 'nomad' pastoral groups either settled down, usually by conquering some settled group and taking over their cities, like the Mongols, Persians, Medes or Turks, or got swept away when the settled groups got weapons they could not match in their camps: muskets and cannon.

But, for a good portion of the game, up to the end of the current 'Renaissance' Era in Civ V, a pastoral 'civ' can be competitive. Playing it, you just have to know when to 'break' and get access to the Settled Technologies, so you can develop like the Seljuk/Ottoman Turks, and not be swept away like the Lakotah or Alans.

Seems you answered to my question. (third choice) The only thing I don't like is how your "choice" isn't really a choice, for example if you get animal husbandry early you could still go the traditional civ path, it would just depend on a choice of yours. I mean, the choice would still be open at any time. It would just be pretty much like a commitment at a given time : for example, if you go pastoral some times, and give up before having a military hedge, you may be backwarded technologically. In the same way, if you don't win being a pastoral civ at the apogee of its power, you may be too short technically (although I wish there are ways to recover fast), but also culturally, adopting the way of life of your enemies, being absorbed by them... (or becoming them ? how would that work ?)

I would love to see something like this added in Civ VI. Not all civilizations really fit in the city founding system. If they could find some way to have alternate play styles that are fun and viable, that would be a huge improvement, I think.

For Civ V, I had some ideas for a barbarian civilization, where you can found new encampments in fog of war. Then having the ability to build simple buildings, but mostly just poop out a bunch of units to harass major civilizations. Pillaging tile improvements would give you additional resources to build encampents/buildings/units with etc.

Yes, barbarians is a huge 'idea' that haunts me as a playable faction lately. The problem here is that "barbarians" just represent unknown people by auto-proclamed "civilized" civs, and that it's their major character.

We can find other characters like having undisciplined troops but numerous fighters, maybe also organized in 'clans' that you have to unite before going to war, and that's pretty much it.

Or you can just, to represent that, make them developping in a different way, like the Zergs in Starcraft... for example, they acquire territory in a different way, are organized in clans, are based on pillaging regular civs, etc...
 
One possibility is something very simple. Like Beyond Earth, you could choose something about your background and get a bonus whit it.

Hunters: knowledge of a great part of the land map. Free Scout with 15xp.
Sedentary: extra grain resource beside your Capital with a farm build.
Cannibals: Units start with Cannibal Promotion (cause fear and gains HP after kill); Extra free Warrior; Units loose Cannibal Promotion when you enter in Classical Era.
Gatherers: +1 culture in your Capital until Medieval Era.
 
One possibility is something very simple. Like Beyond Earth, you could choose something about your background and get a bonus whit it.

Hunters: knowledge of a great part of the land map. Free Scout with 15xp.
Sedentary: extra grain resource beside your Capital with a farm build.
Cannibals: Units start with Cannibal Promotion (cause fear and gains HP after kill); Extra free Warrior; Units loose Cannibal Promotion when you enter in Classical Era.
Gatherers: +1 culture in your Capital until Medieval Era.

I don't like it too much. Because it's too unconsequent, like Unique Abilities of Civ5 : once choosen, you most of the time stop interacting with them as they are just passive abilities. You just forget them and play as usual.

Here is about having something that deeply changes not only the way you play, but also the unfolding of the game. All that for one goal : flavor, flavor, flavor.
 
This sounds so much like something that have already been done (in Civ4 for example) that I'm unsure of the real impact it would have, as it has very little impact (flavorfully at least) by the past.

As long it is only a starting choice with no other changes extending from that choice, it is almost worthless in a game of Civ's scope. The point I'm trying to make is that the Starting Position on the map, the resources and terrain available, the starting technologies that come out of that, fundamentally change the way your civilization will develop, at least for the first third to half of the game.
For example, if you start on a plain with a river and herd animals as a starting resource AND choose Animal Husbandry as your starting technology, the Applications for Animal Husbandry include include Leatherworking, Composite Materials (leather, bone, horn), Animal Breeding, and Exotic Domestication. You can research any of these in about half the time you could research another 'regular' technology. Leather Working will lead you to Leather Armor (upgrade to any early troop-type), Composite Materials will lead to Mounted Archery, Animal Breeding will lead to Horseback Riding, Exotic Domestication will allow you to utilize Elephants or Camels if they are available.

You could, of course, try researching Agriculture and converting to a 'standard' current-civ-type technology advance, but you would actually be going backwards: Agriculture as a standard Technology will take you twice as long to research as any of your Applications, and your Applications will lead more rapidly towards units and technologies more immediately useful to your particular civilization. No single choice change will make a great difference in a game of the scope of Civilization, but a choice that leads to other strategic choices can change your development for a good part of the game, and that's the kind of 'differentiation' I'm looking for.

Should we start way before 4000 BC, or having several types of civs to choose from (with the different techs), or having no civ choice and adapt as soon as we settle the first city ?

No need to start before 4000 BC, as long as the game recognizes that by 4000 BCE civilizations and groups had already differentiated to some degree, based on their surroundings. Thus, some civ will already have developed Agriculture, others concentrating on Animal Husbandry, and still others have already taken to the Sea (island start, coastal start with islands visible off-shore).

I foresee two ways to start the game. First, you could start Traditionally (the way the game always has until now), You pick a Civilization, possibly with a specific Leader. Example: you pick Carthage. In that case, you WILL get an Historical Start Position: your Settler will be on the coast, the starting radius you can exploit will include some kind of Grain/Fish or Animal, and you will have a list of Starting Unique Attributes from which you can choose. These will include General Attributes based on your Starting Location, and Civilization-Specific Attributes. For Carthage, these might include:

Barbarians are 33% more willing to Trade than Fight
Barbarians and City States are 33% more willing to Hire their Units to you as Mercenaries
Research Exotic Domestics 50% faster as soon as you get access by trade or exploitable radius to either Camel or Elephant resource.

Note that these are designed to give Carthage access to some of its signature Uniques: trade routes and influence with Barbarians and City States (Trade Empire), armies of Foreign Mercenaries, and Elephant units. The ability to move over Mountains is, frankly, drivel: Hannibal tried it once, lost all his elephants doing it, never tried it again.

Having a coastal start, Carthage could choose a Starting Tech of Boating, which allows sea trade along the coast, a primitive coastal ship (Pentekonter?) and non-mounted military or civilian units to move through coastal tiles - to exploit island resources or establish Trading Posts/resource-exploiting Camps down the coast. However, having a coastal start will make researching that Technology much faster than if they started inland, so you could also start with Agriculture to build a fat city on the coast, do fast research of Boating to start trading down the coast, and Exotic Domestics to access Camels and start Trading Routes across the desert. Obviously, that last choice requires a desert and trading partners, but it shows the possible "Carthaginian Strategies" which the Historical Start Position gives you.

The other start technique is what I partially described in the previous Post: you start with, for instance, a basic choice of Starting Position: Jungle, Plains, Desert, Forest, Coast, Island. You open the game, see the actual resources in the Starting Radius, and pick a Starting Technology and General Attribute. The Civilopedia will give you hints as to what Civilization your choices will be tending you toward, and a choice of starting City Names based on those hints.
Example: You choose a Coastal start, open the game and discover your Settler is on the coast, with hills, Grain, Olives, Fish and islands visible offshore. Your choices for a starting Technology are Agriculture or Boating, because you do not have any herd animals to exploit as a Pastoral culture. You choose either one, and the Civilopedia will point out that your starting position is compatible with Greece, Carthage, Phoenicia (or however many other variants of Civs the Civ VI programmers decide to include). That choice will give you access to Starting Uniques, or you could choose not to choose, and accept the General Starting Uniques and see what develops later.

The Applications of Agriculture are Irrigation, Terracing, Forest Cultivation, and Lunar Calendar,
of Boating they include Advanced Woodworking, Stargazing (primitive Navigation with Religious Applications), and Weaving (Nets, Sails)
Whichever you choose will obviously lead you in somewhat different directions down the Tech Tree, assuming you make a rational attempt to Maximize your research effectiveness from the start.

(can nomads make armies ? I think they are not numerous enough for that, unless we invent something totally new, but would it still be History related ? We could give it a try i guess (after all, well, Giant Death Robots...), especially if we lack of faction types, or just abandon it) Or, even if they are doomed, why not simulate them anyway ? They would be a factor of population and interaction on the map at start. And, if you are isolated, you could even reach the modern era with high techs ?

That first question is a joke, right? The answer is Yes, in the languages of the Scythians, Persians, Ottoman Turks, Huns, Hsung-Nu, Mongols, Alans, Magyars, and all the other Nomadic Armies that conquered or harassed the Hell out of their settled neighbors. Nomads chasing herds, even massive herds like the North mercian bison, are not particularly numerous; nomads with semi-domesticated herds of their own can be quite numerous, and more importantly, the requirements to protect those herds from predators two and four-legged makes every adult male (and many of the females) of the nomadic society a dangerous warrior, with riding, archery, javelin-throwing or lancing skills that require specialized training for their settled counterparts.

Historically, though, purely nomadic groups were all eventually stomped by their settled neighbors who both outnumbered them and got access to technologies that provided gunpowder weapons: the horse archer is a devastating opponent who can wound from 200 meters away until he faces an enemy with a black powder rifle who can knock him off his horse dead at 300 meters and outnumbers him 5 to 1. The successful ones took over their settled neighbors, like the Persians took Mesopotamia, the Turks the settled middle-east (after being invited in as mercenaries!), the Mongols the Chinese Empire. This gave each of them access to the 'settled' technologies and the manpower base to continue to be competitive. That's the transition you have to make if you chose to start as a Pastoral civilization, but how is it different from the choices you have to make now, playing as the Huns in Civ V? All of your advantages are Front-Loaded: if you have not conquered your way to prominence by the Middle Ages, enemy Knights will ride down your Horse Archers, enemy Pikemen will crush your Battering Rams, and you will get soundly whipped.

if you don't win being a pastoral civ at the apogee of its power, you may be too short technically (although I wish there are ways to recover fast), but also culturally, adopting the way of life of your enemies, being absorbed by them... (or becoming them ? how would that work ?)

See above for the historical answer. In Game Terms, I suggest that conquering a city would give you access to some or all of the Technologies discovered by that city's Parent Civ, and holding a city as a pastoral Civ would start giving you discounts on researching Technologies related to non-pastoral cultures/civilizations. This would, I think, allow the gamer to try replicating the historical Ottoman/Persian/Mongol successes in a game, and avoiding the historical Hun/Lakotah/Alan failures.
 
You can research any of these in about half the time you could research another 'regular' technology.[...]

Agriculture as a standard Technology will take you twice as long to research as any of your Applications

Do you mean that having a 'tech path requirement' (like starting on coast/island or having animals) will lower the price of the techs of this path ? It would be interesting, although I would see it as forcing one's hand. What I wish is a blank choice from the player. Like : will I play Civ6 today, or Doom5 ? If you choose Civ6, you will have additionnal choices : will I play a 'regular' civ today, try the bold 'pastoral civ' path, or maybe the City state path, unless I vote for hunther gatherers.

No need to start before 4000 BC, as long as the game recognizes that by 4000 BCE civilizations and groups had already differentiated to some degree, based on their surroundings. Thus, some civ will already have developed Agriculture, others concentrating on Animal Husbandry, and still others have already taken to the Sea (island start, coastal start with islands visible off-shore).

I foresee two ways to start the game. First, you could start Traditionally (the way the game always has until now), You pick a Civilization, possibly with a specific Leader. Example: you pick Carthage. In that case, you WILL get an Historical Start Position: your Settler will be on the coast, the starting radius you can exploit will include some kind of Grain/Fish or Animal, and you will have a list of Starting Unique Attributes from which you can choose. These will include General Attributes based on your Starting Location, and Civilization-Specific Attributes. For Carthage, these might include:

Barbarians are 33% more willing to Trade than Fight
Barbarians and City States are 33% more willing to Hire their Units to you as Mercenaries
Research Exotic Domestics 50% faster as soon as you get access by trade or exploitable radius to either Camel or Elephant resource.

Note that these are designed to give Carthage access to some of its signature Uniques: trade routes and influence with Barbarians and City States (Trade Empire), armies of Foreign Mercenaries, and Elephant units. The ability to move over Mountains is, frankly, drivel: Hannibal tried it once, lost all his elephants doing it, never tried it again.

Having a coastal start, Carthage could choose a Starting Tech of Boating, which allows sea trade along the coast, a primitive coastal ship (Pentekonter?) and non-mounted military or civilian units to move through coastal tiles - to exploit island resources or establish Trading Posts/resource-exploiting Camps down the coast. However, having a coastal start will make researching that Technology much faster than if they started inland, so you could also start with Agriculture to build a fat city on the coast, do fast research of Boating to start trading down the coast, and Exotic Domestics to access Camels and start Trading Routes across the desert. Obviously, that last choice requires a desert and trading partners, but it shows the possible "Carthaginian Strategies" which the Historical Start Position gives you.

The other start technique is what I partially described in the previous Post: you start with, for instance, a basic choice of Starting Position: Jungle, Plains, Desert, Forest, Coast, Island. You open the game, see the actual resources in the Starting Radius, and pick a Starting Technology and General Attribute. The Civilopedia will give you hints as to what Civilization your choices will be tending you toward, and a choice of starting City Names based on those hints.
Example: You choose a Coastal start, open the game and discover your Settler is on the coast, with hills, Grain, Olives, Fish and islands visible offshore. Your choices for a starting Technology are Agriculture or Boating, because you do not have any herd animals to exploit as a Pastoral culture. You choose either one, and the Civilopedia will point out that your starting position is compatible with Greece, Carthage, Phoenicia (or however many other variants of Civs the Civ VI programmers decide to include). That choice will give you access to Starting Uniques, or you could choose not to choose, and accept the General Starting Uniques and see what develops later.

The Applications of Agriculture are Irrigation, Terracing, Forest Cultivation, and Lunar Calendar,
of Boating they include Advanced Woodworking, Stargazing (primitive Navigation with Religious Applications), and Weaving (Nets, Sails)
Whichever you choose will obviously lead you in somewhat different directions down the Tech Tree, assuming you make a rational attempt to Maximize your research effectiveness from the start.

Ok, I see.

That first question is a joke, right?

My bad, I meant hunter-gatherers, although you could have done the correction yourself I believe.
 
Do you mean that having a 'tech path requirement' (like starting on coast/island or having animals) will lower the price of the techs of this path ? It would be interesting, although I would see it as forcing one's hand. What I wish is a blank choice from the player. Like : will I play Civ6 today, or Doom5 ? If you choose Civ6, you will have additionnal choices : will I play a 'regular' civ today, try the bold 'pastoral civ' path, or maybe the City state path, unless I vote for hunther gatherers.

Not "requirements" so much as Bonuses. You can research Boating or Seafaring from the middle of the desert, but I foresee it taking you, say, twice as long as it would if you are sitting on the coast, with an island offshore that beckons you to explore, or whales/fish right off shore that beg to be exploited.
As I see it, a completely Blank Choice is a fantasy: the resources and terrain surrounding your tribe/group historically direct the development of that group in certain directions. However, the directions are not rigid: that's why groups starting in the middle of heavily wooded rolling hills and rivers end up as different as, say, the French, Germans, Russians, and Iroquois...
 
My bad, I meant hunter-gatherers, although you could have done the correction yourself I believe.

Sorry for Piling On, I was in Pastoral versus Agriculture mode. Hunter-Gatherer groups just do not support a dense enough population to fight a 'civilization' - even the northeastern American Natives (Algonquin, Iroquois, et al) combined hunting and fishing with some pretty sophisticated agriculture to support a dense network of villages.
On the other hand, some hunter-gatherer groups could be pretty dangerous to their neighbors: the Haida of the Pacific Northwest coast terrorized all the other coastal tribes with their raids, and the plains tribes, especially the Commanche and Lakota, were technically pure hunter-gatherers utilizing the rather rich resource of Bison, and were able to stall and (in the Commanches' case) even roll back the advance of the US civilization - but they couldn't really beat it in the long run: too huge a population and technology gap.

I suggest that Hunter-Gatherer is, rather, the 'type' for many of the Barbarian Camps now in the game: they won't grow, because they will never have the food resources to support a rising population, but they can be a dangerous local opponent because of Special Military Skills they possess: the Haida War Canoes (8-foot diameter dug-out Douglas Firs can carry a lot of raiders), Commanche or Lakota fast riding lancers or mounted archers, who could also virtually disappear when counterattacked or chased.
 
Not "requirements" so much as Bonuses. You can research Boating or Seafaring from the middle of the desert, but I foresee it taking you, say, twice as long as it would if you are sitting on the coast, with an island offshore that beckons you to explore, or whales/fish right off shore that beg to be exploited.
As I see it, a completely Blank Choice is a fantasy: the resources and terrain surrounding your tribe/group historically direct the development of that group in certain directions. However, the directions are not rigid: that's why groups starting in the middle of heavily wooded rolling hills and rivers end up as different as, say, the French, Germans, Russians, and Iroquois...

Well, pastoral civs could have become sedentary ones, it's just that they got attached to their way of living. As well as hunter-gatherers, those in very "disputed" areas probably didn't survived but they preferred obliteration over changing their way of life.
So, if the player feels in a mood he wants to play a pastoral civ, he should be able to. I agree though that he should find horses or whatever before, for adding maybe an opportunity choice.

Sorry for Piling On, I was in Pastoral versus Agriculture mode. Hunter-Gatherer groups just do not support a dense enough population to fight a 'civilization' - even the northeastern American Natives (Algonquin, Iroquois, et al) combined hunting and fishing with some pretty sophisticated agriculture to support a dense network of villages.
On the other hand, some hunter-gatherer groups could be pretty dangerous to their neighbors: the Haida of the Pacific Northwest coast terrorized all the other coastal tribes with their raids, and the plains tribes, especially the Commanche and Lakota, were technically pure hunter-gatherers utilizing the rather rich resource of Bison, and were able to stall and (in the Commanches' case) even roll back the advance of the US civilization - but they couldn't really beat it in the long run: too huge a population and technology gap.

I suggest that Hunter-Gatherer is, rather, the 'type' for many of the Barbarian Camps now in the game: they won't grow, because they will never have the food resources to support a rising population, but they can be a dangerous local opponent because of Special Military Skills they possess: the Haida War Canoes (8-foot diameter dug-out Douglas Firs can carry a lot of raiders), Commanche or Lakota fast riding lancers or mounted archers, who could also virtually disappear when counterattacked or chased.

I really wish we can play hunter-gatherers, for we should start as them. There would be many ways to evolve, and, if it would be advised most of the time, I wish one can go to the modern age as them, for example if they start on an island with only other hunter-gatherers, or far from any 'regular civ' in a continent or pangaea.

They could even act towards keeping their way of life, in an enlighted way, as City-States pretty much did some times. Sending agents in sedentary civs, learning from strategy and politics, and find their way around among the lot.
 
Well, pastoral civs could have become sedentary ones, it's just that they got attached to their way of living. As well as hunter-gatherers, those in very "disputed" areas probably didn't survived but they preferred obliteration over changing their way of life.
So, if the player feels in a mood he wants to play a pastoral civ, he should be able to. I agree though that he should find horses or whatever before, for adding maybe an opportunity choice.

Completely agree. In fact, starting at 4000 BCE, quite a few of the 'settled' civilizations in the game were actually Pastoral: virtually all of the Indo-Europeans, for instance (which includes Greeks, Persians, Indians). Practically, in fact, everyone except the earliest cities: Sumeria, Egypt, maybe the proto-hittites.
My vision of the Pastoral Start is the civ that has 'herd animals' in its starting radius and picks a starting Tech of Animal Husbandry. They would get a wider start radius, maybe like the Shoshone do now, and use their 'Settler' to found a pair of camps, each exploiting a resource, rather than a single settled city. As you say, sooner or later they will have to conquer or build cities, but they could have a good long run through the first third or so of the game...

I really wish we can play hunter-gatherers, for we should start as them. There would be many ways to evolve, and, if it would be advised most of the time, I wish one can go to the modern age as them, for example if they start on an island with only other hunter-gatherers, or far from any 'regular civ' in a continent or pangaea.

They could even act towards keeping their way of life, in an enlighted way, as City-States pretty much did some times. Sending agents in sedentary civs, learning from strategy and politics, and find their way around among the lot.

Historically, the record of hunter-gatherers in contact with 'civilizations' is not a happy one: they get wiped out or their culture ruined. However, with a good concentration of food sources - like Whales, concentrated fish/clams, or the North American Bison, certain hunter-gatherer groups lasted well into the 'historical' period and achieved enough population density to achieve a number of Technologies: nets, boat building, composite bows, Horseback Riding, wood plank housing ...

Not certain what kind of mechanism we can institute to give them, or Pastorals, some Science points: neither will really build cities for quite a while; perhaps a certain number of Scientific points per Camp would do it, or a mechanism whereby they can acquire Technologies from neighbors or Trading Partners...
 
Completely agree. In fact, starting at 4000 BCE, quite a few of the 'settled' civilizations in the game were actually Pastoral: virtually all of the Indo-Europeans, for instance (which includes Greeks, Persians, Indians). Practically, in fact, everyone except the earliest cities: Sumeria, Egypt, maybe the proto-hittites.

There were no Greeks or Persians 4000 bc. Proto-Indo-Europeans were nomadic or semi-nomadic but most of Europe was not, most people lived in agricultural villages. On the other hand practicing agriculture did not mean true sedentialsim yet. Villages would be moved to new locations as soil was getting less fertile.
 
I always thought there should be some time to search for a better city location at start. But game forces us to find a city asap. Maybe palace bonuses should not be that great and there should be other sources to get science, culture and units other than cities.

Maybe player's first city should be in a "tribe" phase when it can move across the map. It is named, e.g., "Mongols" and only as you've built a palace it becomes a capital and its name is turned to Karakorum. You can build everything just as in an ordinary city but when tribe moves it loses its buildings (except the Tribal Hall) and any claimed tiles (back to 1 hex culture radius). You can build units while on the move.

Tribal Hall gives you 1 culture per turn you can spend on pre-civilized policies.
Totemism: can build totem poles
Headhunters: +2 culture per attack on a rival Tribe
Potlatch: +1 happiness, can build culture
Big-manship: +1 production
Shamanism: +1 faith
Warrior Culture: 3 military units are maintenance free, +5 exp to existing and new units
Gift Economy: +2 gold
Great Mother: +1 food
etc

Buildings:
Tribal Hall: +1 culture, +1 production (upgraded to Palace)
Burial Mound: +1 culture
Totem Pole: +1 faith from animal resources
Yurt: +25% to mounted units production
can build more tribes

You lose your tribal policies when you build Palace and turns to civilization.

technologies:
Agriculture: can build Herd units (if there are cattle/sheep/horse resources nearby) which give 2 production per turn when stationed in unimproved plains or grassland. Herds can be stolen like workers. The player can amass Herds for high production to build an army of nomads. Later in the game Herds will be of limited use because of lack of unimproved terrain.
Dog Domestication: +1 move to Herds (up from 1)
Wheel: +1 move to tribe (up from 1)
Also Weaving, Fermentation, Grinding stones, etc
All these techs should belong to the Neolithic era
In the Ancient era there should be a Governance tech allowing to build Palace

Neolithic great Wonders: Catal Hoyuk, Jericho Walls, Nasca Lines, Gobekli Tepe
 
If we're talking about a 'pre-4000 BCE' development period, here's what I think we have to deal with - these are the 'technologies' known to have been in use before 4000 BCE:

8000 BCE - first evidence of agriculture in Middle East, SE Asia, possibly other places

7000 BCE - evidence og domestication of cattle, goats, sheep; fishing from boats just off-shore; domestication of wheat, millet, barley (grains)

6000 BCE - (solid) wheels in Sumeria, plows drawn by oxen in Europe

5000 BCE - copper smelting (modern Iran); dikes and canals for irrigation (Egypt); cultivation of corn (maize) and beans (Americas)

4500 BCE - horse being used as a draft animal (Ukraine)

4000 BCE - Pictographic writing (Sumeria); painted, multi-colored pottery (Egypt and Russia); copper alloys, smelting of gold and silver (Egypt and Sumeria); coastal shipping (Crete)

This list is by no means complete - archeology is changing what 'we thought we knew' all the time...

But it means, depending on the 'civilization', in 4000 BCE you could start with the possible Technologies of:
Agriculture
Animal Husbandry
The Wheel
Irrigation
Pottery
Boating/Seafaring
Mining/Metal-Working

This gives a considerable range for differentiating a Starting Point: Groups starting with Animal Husbandry and access to Cattle and/or Horses would have The Wheel immediately or very quickly, and be Pastoral in nature. A Group with Agriculture and a Flood Plain would develop Irrigation very quickly if not immediately, while on the coast the Group could start with Boating, access shellfish and fish as their primary food resource. Add in a possible Social Policy or Cultural Trait to start, and you've got a large variation in civilization 'type' from the Combinations without having to 'backdate' the game into the Neolithic.

Add a separate set of early 'Improvements' or 'buildings' for Pastoral Civs (Burial Mound, Totem, Chief's Hall, Wagon Burg) and possibly even a bias towards certain Social Policies (Tradition, Honor are obvious, but Pastorals were also great traders - perhaps Commerce?) and we get close to making the Pastoral a viable Civilization Choice...
 
Boris Gudenuf, some dates in your list are strange, wheels werent known before mid 3000s iirc, not counting toys. and what would horse draw if not a wheeled cart. progress to agriculture was gradual, first grinding mortars are ~20,000 bc (ohalo place in israel), sicles 12,000 (egypt), grain cultivation ~10,000.

free techs at start is a nice and easy solution but i think tribe phase would be great on its own, i always wanted some time to explore surroundings and pick a better start location. now we are forced to settle in place inspite we're given a settler which can move. also this tribe phase would provide a more natural transition to nomadism.
 
Boris Gudenuf, some dates in your list are strange, wheels werent known before mid 3000s iirc, not counting toys. and what would horse draw if not a wheeled cart. progress to agriculture was gradual, first grinding mortars are ~20,000 bc (ohalo place in israel), sicles 12,000 (egypt), grain cultivation ~10,000.

Wheels were known before 3000 BCE, although the 4-wheeled (2 axle) cart was not known before then. I do not know if the earliest horse harness was associated with a 2-wheeled cart or not, but horses can also draw sledges or travois which do not need the wheel. Grains were gathered, prepared and eaten long before they were cultivated: the 8000 BCE date is from several years ago, and represents the best (then) evidence of planting and cultivation. Given that new archeological discoveries come up constantly, I would not be surprised if the start date of cultivation doesn't get pushed back. The point remains that agriculture, pottery, animal husbandry, boating are all technologies that are currently 4000 BCE and after in the game, that can be pushed back to well before the game's nominal start date.

free techs at start is a nice and easy solution but i think tribe phase would be great on its own, i always wanted some time to explore surroundings and pick a better start location. now we are forced to settle in place inspite we're given a settler which can move. also this tribe phase would provide a more natural transition to nomadism.

I agree that you should know a lot more about your surroundings at the start: people have been exploring the land around them forever, and it is ridiculous that your 'settler' does not know that there is a seacoast full of fish 4 tiles away, or a mountain range 6 tiles in the opposite direction.
Rather than spend X turns wandering around, though, I'd rather have some kind of Exploration Radius beyond the initial starting point to represent What You Know, plus a variable technology/social policy/religious belief suite of starting elements and get started right into building a sedentary (city) or pastoral (herding) civilization.
 
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