Evolving Civs and Leaders - Aztec to Mexico, Cherokee to America

[King Phaedron]

I have several ideas here. Please read and add your own ideas. (Evolving Civs and Leaders game mode summary)

1. Evolving Civs, as in the whole Civilization becomes another one when the world enters the Industrial age.
2. Evolving Leaders, as in Frederick Barbarosa trades his medieval armor for a modern uniform.
3. Evolving Leaders, as in you get a different one for the second half of the game.
4. Or no changes at all for most civilizations.

City Shift:

For those Civs which become entirely new civs, randomly renames every city, and renames Mexico City to something else.

Leader shift:

When new leaders appear they introduce themselves and the slate is wiped clean. Alliances, denouncements, and delegations are broken. Trade deals are retained.

AZTEC TO MEXICO

By the Industrial age, the Aztec player is expected to have a wide empire and 20-30 Luxury resources. This becomes quite unreasonable for modern warfare, as inherent Aztec combat bonus should not translate to vehicles. Even foot soldiers in modern times tend to have better training with fighting skills and martial arts due to trade, books, and cultural exchange. The combat bonus no longer makes sense, so forcing the civilization to change into Mexico, with a new leader, puts a time limit on easy Aztec Domination.

Mexican Leader ability: Siesta: +1 culture for every neighborhood. Cities with 6 population or more lose 1 production for each additional population. City Projects cost twice as much production. Factories provide 1 Amenity to cities within range. +3 food, and -3 gold to import it, for city centers built on Snow, Tundra, or Desert. Cities that lack sufficient amenities lose 1 population, which migrate to a nearby city of another empire, preferably America. This can only happen once per city.

Mexican unique building: Taco Shop. Replaces the Granary. Does NOT provide food or housing. Friendly units in city territory heal 5 every turn even if they take action. +4 Tourism if the city has at least 4 Population. +2 Tourism for each world wonder, and natural wonder, in a city.

Mexican Unique Unit: (you think of one)

So when the wide Aztec empire becomes Mexico, it loses the extra amenities and combat bonus, and shifts towards achieving a cultural victory with a unique strategy that favors making lots of cities with Taco Shops, but you can't just spam cities everywhere as you need at least 4 population, (except during a Draconis age) You don't need great people, but all wonders help. Cities with the Aztec unique building get to keep it, as well as any eagle warriors you still have.

Amenities become more of a problem, but you should have built lots of entertainment districts for the Aztec unique building, and you can get extra amenities by making good use of factories and cities built close together. There is a disadvantage for city projects: Twice the cost, but not twice the benefit, except for effects that happen every turn.

The loss of production and increased cost of city projects is actually a blessing for big cities, as managing a wide empire in the end game quickly turns into a nightmare. I actually dread making too many cities, because you are micro managing all of them every single turn. I would rather eliminate city projects and bring back gold and science focus from Civ 5, but since the devs didn't have the common sense to do this, and players don't have the common sense to demand it, this is the next best thing.

Plus there is a religious belief or card that actually reduces the production time for city projects, which is proof positive the devs don't play the game for very long. Why would anyone ever want to finish them twice as fast?

CHEROKEE TO AMERICA

I've come across some arguments that there were white Cherokee, and lived in houses, also that the constitution was based on the Iroquis confederation. The Cherokee become the face of Native Americans displaced by America. I haven't given it much thought, but I think the general focus should be military and culture. We could just as well do Apache, Hopi, or some other tribes, but I think Cherokee is the most interesting, and we already have Sioux and Iroquis in other Civ Games.

My other idea was that almost anyone could have the option to become America. There is evidence the ancient Egyptians made their way here.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I have many things to say about this idea, but considering it is presented as an optional game mode I'll let the initial idea slide.
I myself would find it interesting if there was sort of a mechanic to let new leaders/civilizations pop up in the game through types of revolutions. Where my ideas differ is I don't believe in the idea that Aztecs should always evolve into Mexico etc. I think it should be random and any leader/civ that wasn't included in the initial start of the game should be chosen.
Now to the design of the civs themselves:

AZTEC TO MEXICO

By the Industrial age, the Aztec player is expected to have a wide empire and 20-30 Luxury resources. This becomes quite unreasonable for modern warfare, as inherent Aztec combat bonus should not translate to vehicles. Even foot soldiers in modern times tend to have better training with fighting skills and martial arts due to trade, books, and cultural exchange. The combat bonus no longer makes sense, so forcing the civilization to change into Mexico, with a new leader, puts a time limit on easy Aztec Domination.

Mexican Leader ability: Siesta: +1 culture for every neighborhood. Cities with 6 population or more lose 1 production for each additional population. City Projects cost twice as much production. Factories provide 1 Amenity to cities within range. +3 food, and -3 gold to import it, for city centers built on Snow, Tundra, or Desert. Cities that lack sufficient amenities lose 1 population, which migrate to a nearby city of another empire, preferably America. This can only happen once per city.

Mexican unique building: Taco Shop. Replaces the Granary. Does NOT provide food or housing. Friendly units in city territory heal 5 every turn even if they take action. +4 Tourism if the city has at least 4 Population. +2 Tourism for each world wonder, and natural wonder, in a city.

Mexican Unique Unit: (you think of one)

I'm not sure what Siesta has to do with the ability. In fact, I'm not sure why a civ ability would be named Siesta in the first place?
Also, Taco Shop? I'd much rather a Cemetery with a unique Day of the Dead city project to go along with it.

CHEROKEE TO AMERICA

I've come across some arguments that there were white Cherokee, and lived in houses, also that the constitution was based on the Iroquis confederation. The Cherokee become the face of Native Americans displaced by America. I haven't given it much thought, but I think the general focus should be military and culture. We could just as well do Apache, Hopi, or some other tribes, but I think Cherokee is the most interesting, and we already have Sioux and Iroquis in other Civ Games.

My other idea was that almost anyone could have the option to become America. There is evidence the ancient Egyptians made their way here.

It's more like a fact, not an argument, that there were indeed Cherokee who had European ancestry. John Ross, who was a chief, was part Scottish through both sides of his family, with his father being fully Scottish. I still am not sure why this is relevant to Cherokee turning America unless you mean they are civilized enough because you also mention them living in houses and having a constitution/form of writing? If anything shouldn't it be parts of England turning into America?

 

[Caesar of Bread]

I have several ideas here. Please read and add your own ideas. (Evolving Civs and Leaders game mode summary)

1. Evolving Civs, as in the whole Civilization becomes another one when the world enters the Industrial age.
2. Evolving Leaders, as in Frederick Barbarosa trades his medieval armor for a modern uniform.
3. Evolving Leaders, as in you get a different one for the second half of the game.
4. Or no changes at all for most civilizations.

City Shift:

For those Civs which become entirely new civs, randomly renames every city, and renames Mexico City to something else.

Leader shift:

When new leaders appear they introduce themselves and the slate is wiped clean. Alliances, denouncements, and delegations are broken. Trade deals are retained.

AZTEC TO MEXICO

By the Industrial age, the Aztec player is expected to have a wide empire and 20-30 Luxury resources. This becomes quite unreasonable for modern warfare, as inherent Aztec combat bonus should not translate to vehicles. Even foot soldiers in modern times tend to have better training with fighting skills and martial arts due to trade, books, and cultural exchange. The combat bonus no longer makes sense, so forcing the civilization to change into Mexico, with a new leader, puts a time limit on easy Aztec Domination.

Mexican Leader ability: Siesta: +1 culture for every neighborhood. Cities with 6 population or more lose 1 production for each additional population. City Projects cost twice as much production. Factories provide 1 Amenity to cities within range. +3 food, and -3 gold to import it, for city centers built on Snow, Tundra, or Desert. Cities that lack sufficient amenities lose 1 population, which migrate to a nearby city of another empire, preferably America. This can only happen once per city.

Mexican unique building: Taco Shop. Replaces the Granary. Does NOT provide food or housing. Friendly units in city territory heal 5 every turn even if they take action. +4 Tourism if the city has at least 4 Population. +2 Tourism for each world wonder, and natural wonder, in a city.

Mexican Unique Unit: (you think of one)

So when the wide Aztec empire becomes Mexico, it loses the extra amenities and combat bonus, and shifts towards achieving a cultural victory with a unique strategy that favors making lots of cities with Taco Shops, but you can't just spam cities everywhere as you need at least 4 population, (except during a Draconis age) You don't need great people, but all wonders help. Cities with the Aztec unique building get to keep it, as well as any eagle warriors you still have.

Amenities become more of a problem, but you should have built lots of entertainment districts for the Aztec unique building, and you can get extra amenities by making good use of factories and cities built close together. There is a disadvantage for city projects: Twice the cost, but not twice the benefit, except for effects that happen every turn.

The loss of production and increased cost of city projects is actually a blessing for big cities, as managing a wide empire in the end game quickly turns into a nightmare. I actually dread making too many cities, because you are micro managing all of them every single turn. I would rather eliminate city projects and bring back gold and science focus from Civ 5, but since the devs didn't have the common sense to do this, and players don't have the common sense to demand it, this is the next best thing.

Plus there is a religious belief or card that actually reduces the production time for city projects, which is proof positive the devs don't play the game for very long. Why would anyone ever want to finish them twice as fast?
CHEROKEE TO AMERICA


I've come across some arguments that there were white Cherokee, and lived in houses, also that the constitution was based on the Iroquis confederation. The Cherokee become the face of Native Americans displaced by America. I haven't given it much thought, but I think the general focus should be military and culture. We could just as well do Apache, Hopi, or some other tribes, but I think Cherokee is the most interesting, and we already have Sioux and Iroquis in other Civ Games.

My other idea was that almost anyone could have the option to become America. There is evidence the ancient Egyptians made their way here.

ok now how does that work, also please don’t be saying America is the successor to the natives - the USA brutally colonized the Cherokee. Same with the Spanish colonizing the Aztecs. Two different civs here, and if you put these civs together, you’re just promoting colonialism by saying that these two civs were practically the same. Also why in the Lord’s name is a Taco Shop Mexico’s UI? Instead of a Day of the Dead Cemetery project like what my friend @Alexander's Hetaroi was saying?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Also why in the Lord’s name is a Taco Shop Mexico’s UI? Instead of a Day of the Dead Cemetery project like what my friend @Alexander's Hetaroi was saying?

You and I probably know that Texas has better tacos anyways.
Though I don't think a Taco Shop would be good enough to be a unique building.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

You and I probably know that Texas has better tacos anyways.
Though I don't think a Taco Shop would be good enough to be a unique building.

The Taco Shop seems campy as heck, but then Scotland has the Golf Course so...

 

[Patine]

The Taco Shop seems campy as heck, but then Scotland has the Golf Course so...

Well, Mary, Queen of Scots, used spending the afternoon on the Saint Andrew's golf course (which is still there to this day) as an allibi of ignorance to events around the assassination of here husband, Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley, in 1567. How many significant Mexican historical events involve a taco shop (if that's even the traditional form of hospitality/restaraunteuring business style that would sell them, as such, in Mexico proper, outside the Border Cities)?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The Taco Shop seems campy as heck, but then Scotland has the Golf Course so...

I've come around to appreciate it more. When it was first revealed I did research and I would have never known that modern golf was invented there or that Scotland has more land set aside for golf courses than any other country in the world.
Still wouldn't have been my first choice, but lakes aren't as numerous in the game for mine to work.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I've come around to appreciate it more. When it was first revealed I did research and I would have never known that modern golf was invented there or that Scotland has more land set aside for golf courses than any other country in the world.
Still wouldn't have been my first choice, but lakes aren't as numerous in the game for mine to work.

Of course Scotland has more golf courses than anyone: according to Monty Python, it's because they are utterly hopeless at Tennis and had to develop an alternative sport that wasted even more land and time in pointless pursuits.

 

[BuchiTaton]

I have several ideas here. Please read and add your own ideas. (Evolving Civs and Leaders game mode summary)

1. Evolving Civs, as in the whole Civilization becomes another one when the world enters the Industrial age.
2. Evolving Leaders, as in Frederick Barbarosa trades his medieval armor for a modern uniform.
3. Evolving Leaders, as in you get a different one for the second half of the game.
4. Or no changes at all for most civilizations.

City Shift:

For those Civs which become entirely new civs, randomly renames every city, and renames Mexico City to something else.

Leader shift:

When new leaders appear they introduce themselves and the slate is wiped clean. Alliances, denouncements, and delegations are broken. Trade deals are retained.

Why just at Industrial Era? There were significative ethnic, cultural and technological changes all around the world even since the the earlier time range that CIV covers like Indoaryans over Harappans. If you want something like this Humankind already has it.

AZTEC TO MEXICO

By the Industrial age, the Aztec player is expected to have a wide empire and 20-30 Luxury resources. This becomes quite unreasonable for modern warfare, as inherent Aztec combat bonus should not translate to vehicles. Even foot soldiers in modern times tend to have better training with fighting skills and martial arts due to trade, books, and cultural exchange. The combat bonus no longer makes sense, so forcing the civilization to change into Mexico, with a new leader, puts a time limit on easy Aztec Domination.

This can be applied to almost all civ bonuses at many different eras, there are not reason to be different for Aztecs and/or at Industrial Era.

Mexican Leader ability: Siesta: +1 culture for every neighborhood. Cities with 6 population or more lose 1 production for each additional population. City Projects cost twice as much production. Factories provide 1 Amenity to cities within range. +3 food, and -3 gold to import it, for city centers built on Snow, Tundra, or Desert.

Hey pal the19th century called, they want their biased and shallow economic analysis back.

From World Economic Forum the average sleep hours for Mexico is bellow any European and Anglo-colonial. Also Mexico have the world's third highest average annual labor hours.

Cities that lack sufficient amenities lose 1 population, which migrate to a nearby city of another empire, preferably America. This can only happen once per city.

...and they would migrate to "preferably America"
By the way dont you want to give this to all European civs? I mean do you remember that most of contemporary USA's population comes from impoverished and exploited masses from Europe, odd that you dont give European civs like Spanish (Siesta) or Italy (Pennichella) since is from there that Siesta come in the first place.

Mexican unique building: Taco Shop. Replaces the Granary. Does NOT provide food or housing. Friendly units in city territory heal 5 every turn even if they take action. +4 Tourism if the city has at least 4 Population. +2 Tourism for each world wonder, and natural wonder, in a city.

This is a joke, right?

Mexican Unique Unit: (you think of one)

Wow, not even the minimum effort to research it. Why I am not surprised.

So when the wide Aztec empire becomes Mexico, it loses the extra amenities and combat bonus, and shifts towards achieving a cultural victory with a unique strategy that favors making lots of cities with Taco Shops, but you can't just spam cities everywhere as you need at least 4 population, (except during a Draconis age) You don't need great people, but all wonders help. Cities with the Aztec unique building get to keep it, as well as any eagle warriors you still have.

Amenities become more of a problem, but you should have built lots of entertainment districts for the Aztec unique building, and you can get extra amenities by making good use of factories and cities built close together. There is a disadvantage for city projects: Twice the cost, but not twice the benefit, except for effects that happen every turn.

The loss of production and increased cost of city projects is actually a blessing for big cities, as managing a wide empire in the end game quickly turns into a nightmare. I actually dread making too many cities, because you are micro managing all of them every single turn. I would rather eliminate city projects and bring back gold and science focus from Civ 5, but since the devs didn't have the common sense to do this, and players don't have the common sense to demand it, this is the next best thing.

Plus there is a religious belief or card that actually reduces the production time for city projects, which is proof positive the devs don't play the game for very long. Why would anyone ever want to finish them twice as fast?

CIV6 is done, so no need to restrain to its model.

CHEROKEE TO AMERICA

I've come across some arguments that there were white Cherokee, and lived in houses, also that the constitution was based on the Iroquis confederation. The Cherokee become the face of Native Americans displaced by America. I haven't given it much thought, but I think the general focus should be military and culture. We could just as well do Apache, Hopi, or some other tribes, but I think Cherokee is the most interesting, and we already have Sioux and Iroquis in other Civ Games.

Yeah, lets "upgrade" Native Americans Nations by relegathing them.

My other idea was that almost anyone could have the option to become America.

OK, this could be anyone like Humankind's model...

There is evidence the ancient Egyptians made their way here.

...

 

[Patine]

Why just at Industrial Era? There were significative ethnic, cultural and technological changes all around the world even since the the earlier time range that CIV covers like Indoaryans over Harappans. If you want something like this Humankind already has it.

This can be applied to almost all civ bonuses at many different eras, there are not reason to be different for Aztecs and/or at Industrial Era.

Hey pal the19th century called, they want their biased and shallow economic analysis back.

From World Economic Forum the average sleep hours for Mexico is bellow any European and Anglo-colonial. Also Mexico have the world's third highest average annual labor hours.

...and they would migrate to "preferably America"
By the way dont you want to give this to all European civs? I mean do you remember that most of contemporary USA's population comes from impoverished and exploited masses from Europe, odd that you dont give European civs like Spanish (Siesta) or Italy (Pennichella) since is from there that Siesta come in the first place.

This is a joke, right?

Wow, not even the minimum effort to research it. Why I am not surprised.

CIV6 is done, so no need to restrain to its model.

Sounds like his sources on Mexico are, "Herod's Law," mixed with that, "Desperado," movie with Antonio Banderas, and an '80's Tijuana tourist package issued in San Diego.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

You and I probably know that Texas has better tacos anyways.
Though I don't think a Taco Shop would be good enough to be a unique building.

Remember the Alamo, buddy.

Sounds like his sources on Mexico are, "Herod's Law," mixed with that, "Desperado," movie with Antonio Banderas, and an '80's Tijuana tourist package issued in San Diego.

No, I think it was just the 80s Tijuana tourist package issued in San Diego.

that leads to the question, what could be a good Mexican UU? I’m thinking the Rurales would be a good option, as a replacement to some kind of Police Unit.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

that leads to the question, what could be a good Mexican UU? I’m thinking the Rurales would be a good option, as a replacement to some kind of Police Unit.

Humankind gave them Soldaderas.
We don't have any all-female UUs at all that I'm aware of, so it could be an interesting option.

 

[BuchiTaton]

You and I probably know that Texas has better tacos anyways.
Though I don't think a Taco Shop would be good enough to be a unique building.

Spoiler TACOS :

 

[King Phaedron]

Just dropped in as I was inspired. I think I was too harsh on Mexico, which probably got this thread a lot of replies. My thoughts now are, deteriorating production with 10 pop or higher, and make the Taco Shop it's own building, maybe give it +1 food as well. The double production to city projects wouldn't count for stuff like Send Aid, and maybe it could just be double value. The point is not having to interact with high production cities every other turn.
Maybe Max out the Siesta effect to -10 production, and +1 culture on Preserves and Aduaducts as well as every Neighborhood.

Cherokee

Whenever a unit falls in battle get a boost of 1 tourism per game era to all players and an Indian Graveyard is generated. A little skull mark on the tile. Any improvements build on that tile or districts build there, may become randomly pillaged or need repairs. The Indian player is immune to the effects.

Unique building: Casino. +4 gold, +2 culture, +1 tourism for every player that is sending a trade route here. causes the city to be randomized as a trade destination, meaning that sending a trade route there is a gamble every time. So you get random amount of gold and other things. It can also give out great person points of a random type.

If Evolution game mode is on, and you started in an early age, then America could get those random trade cities with Casinos. Of course Cherokee and Mexico would also need to be able to hold their own as stand alone civs, but if Evolution mode is on, can't be in the same game with Aztec and America.

 

[Patine]

Just dropped in as I was inspired. I think I was too harsh on Mexico, which probably got this thread a lot of replies. My thoughts now are, deteriorating production with 10 pop or higher, and make the Taco Shop it's own building, maybe give it +1 food as well. The double production to city projects wouldn't count for stuff like Send Aid, and maybe it could just be double value. The point is not having to interact with high production cities every other turn.

Cherokee

Whenever a unit falls in battle, an Indian Graveyard is generated. A little skull mark on the tile. Any improvements build on that tile or districts build there, may be randomly pillaged or need repairs. The Indian player is immune to the effects.

Unique building: Casino. +4 gold, +1 culture, causes the city to be randomized as a trade destination, meaning that sending a trade route there is a gamble every time. So you get random amount of gold and other things. It can also give out great person points.

Digging oneself in deeper...

 

[Henri Christophe]

AZTEC TO MEXICO

That's a cool idea and I'm agree with you!

CHEROKEE TO AMERICA

If I would choice a civ to become USA after, I would choice the Iroquois, because they are an United States of America, but just had 5 states (6 states around 1700).

 

[Caesar of Bread]

That's a cool idea and I'm agree with you!

If I would choice a civ to become USA after, I would choice the Iroquois, because they are a United States of America, but just had 5 states (6 states around 1700).

Henri, don’t you see that this is a. promoting colonialism and b. promoting stereotypes?

Just dropped in as I was inspired. I think I was too harsh on Mexico, which probably got this thread a lot of replies. My thoughts now are, deteriorating production with 10 pop or higher, and make the Taco Shop it's own building, maybe give it +1 food as well. The double production to city projects wouldn't count for stuff like Send Aid, and maybe it could just be double value. The point is not having to interact with high production cities every other turn.
Maybe Max out the Siesta effect to -10 production, and +1 culture on Preserves and Aduaducts as well as every Neighborhood.

Cherokee

Whenever a unit falls in battle get a boost of 1 tourism per game era to all players and an Indian Graveyard is generated. A little skull mark on the tile. Any improvements build on that tile or districts build there, may become randomly pillaged or need repairs. The Indian player is immune to the effects.

Unique building: Casino. +4 gold, +2 culture, +1 tourism for every player that is sending a trade route here. causes the city to be randomized as a trade destination, meaning that sending a trade route there is a gamble every time. So you get random amount of gold and other things. It can also give out great person points of a random type.

If Evolution game mode is on, and you started in an early age, then America could get those random trade cities with Casinos. Of course Cherokee and Mexico would also need to be able to hold their own as stand alone civs, but if Evolution mode is on, can't be in the same game with Aztec and America.

oh God. Ok so do you realize the problem? If not it’s that you’re promoting stereotypes - which isn’t good. It’s like if I were to say “oh yeah, the USA would have a McDonald’s as its UB and a Florida Man as its UU.” Don’t you see how bad that is? It’s the same with that design, except now you’re saying nations like Mexico and the USA are successors to the Aztecs and the Cherokee (in Henri’s case the Aztecs and the Iroquois, it doesn‘t make that better in any way) - just talk to the Aztecs murdered by Cortez or the Cherokee who died on the Trail of Tears or the Iroquois that were killed by George Washington himself. And that is why this idea is terrible.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Just dropped in as I was inspired. I think I was too harsh on Mexico, which probably got this thread a lot of replies. My thoughts now are, deteriorating production with 10 pop or higher, and make the Taco Shop it's own building, maybe give it +1 food as well. The double production to city projects wouldn't count for stuff like Send Aid, and maybe it could just be double value. The point is not having to interact with high production cities every other turn.
Maybe Max out the Siesta effect to -10 production, and +1 culture on Preserves and Aduaducts as well as every Neighborhood.

Cherokee

Whenever a unit falls in battle get a boost of 1 tourism per game era to all players and an Indian Graveyard is generated. A little skull mark on the tile. Any improvements build on that tile or districts build there, may become randomly pillaged or need repairs. The Indian player is immune to the effects.

Unique building: Casino. +4 gold, +2 culture, +1 tourism for every player that is sending a trade route here. causes the city to be randomized as a trade destination, meaning that sending a trade route there is a gamble every time. So you get random amount of gold and other things. It can also give out great person points of a random type.

If Evolution game mode is on, and you started in an early age, then America could get those random trade cities with Casinos. Of course Cherokee and Mexico would also need to be able to hold their own as stand alone civs, but if Evolution mode is on, can't be in the same game with Aztec and America.

You meant to put these in the Terrible Ideas thread right?
I for one wouldn't mind a Casino building as an alternate building to the Aquarium in the Waterpark District, but not as a unique building for a Native American civ.

 

[reddishrecue]

Casinos are part of usa too like Balrog from street fighter.

 

[Patine]

Casinos are part of usa too like Balrog from street fighter.

And the nations and city-states of the Rivierra. And Liechtenstein. And Luxumburg. And Macau. And Uruguay. And formerly Lebanon. And the UAE. And several other notable hotspots.