Germany in BNW

Tyrvos · Jul 18, 2013

In the most recent Polycast, the makers for BNW hinted at possible changes to Japan and Germany in the Fall patch. I believe they need an overhaul, but should remain military focused. However any ideas are good, since they are also known for production quality and science.

Here are my criticisms: (I may be wrong in my facts, please correct me if so)

UA- Furor Teutonicus- This refers to the ferocity of the Germanic tribes (attributing directly to the Teutones) during the time of Rome. The current UA makes little sense because it involves bringing barbarians to your side. Just like the Gauls, Germanic tribes did not tend to unite, they often were fighting each other continuously. To fit the meaning of this UA, there should be a buff to guerrila warfare (which the Gaulish and Germanic tribes relied on against the Romans) or something like the Bushido UA, march, or either improvements of the Janissary (bonus when attacking or healing for a kill). The maintenance also doesn't make sense because German armies, through anything I've researched, have always focus on quality (i.e. expensive) forces over quantity. So maybe make their average units stronger by a fair amount, and increase their cost slightly.
The current German UA would work perfectly for a Gothic civilization, rounding up large hordes and sacking cities early.

UU- Landsknecht- This was famous mercenary during this time period, so it's odd that they are the average pikeman but cheaper to produce. I honestly support a change to the Doppelsoldner, a more veteran soldier often wielding a Zweihander ( so it would be under longsword and be down the military focused tree) or a gunpowder unit to reflect their strength as Prussia (such as Hessian mercenaries).

UU- Panzer- I think this is fine, it helps capture their tank aspects.

Overall, I think its important that a civilization feels the historical civilization. The Danes feel like Im playing Vikings, the Dutch feel like an economic powerhouse that live in their own friendly little world of gumdrops and chocolate rivers, and the Arabs feel like a trading empire. With the Germans, I just never get that feeling, until Panzers come along of course.

NukeAJS · Jul 19, 2013

They're going to tweak Japan? Why on God's green Earth would they do that? Sure, Zeros are goofy and often unnecessary, but Samurai are awesome and the UA stays equally useful from turn 0 to 500. Two out of three uniques being great is a tier 1 civ in my book.

I haven't played Germany in BNW, but there are two things that buffed them in the expansion it would seem. First, barb camps can make swordsmen and horsemen and, apparently, these units don't consume strategic resources. That means they can be converted. Second, opening honor (and you're Germany so you really, really should) gives the added benefit of seeing where the danger against your trades routes can come from.

Tyrvos · Jul 19, 2013

From what they said, it's because they want to incorporate Japan's isolationist culture, since they have been able to keep their culture unique even during globalization I guess.

Nicasen · Jul 19, 2013

I agree with Germany, their UA seems like it'd be more fitting for Attila or someone rather than a major European power. I wouldn't mind seeing something like bonus tourism / culture from plundered great works since the Germans had such a big reputation for stealing art work during WW2, but that might just be because I just rewatched Inglorious Basterds this week.

illathid · Jul 19, 2013

I really like how Germany is set up to represent three different eras in its history. If they do make changes to Germany, I hope they keep that aspect of it.

aluelkdf · Jul 19, 2013

Nicasen said:
I agree with Germany, their UA seems like it'd be more fitting for Attila or someone rather than a major European power. I wouldn't mind seeing something like bonus tourism / culture from plundered great works since the Germans had such a big reputation for stealing art work during WW2, but that might just be because I just rewatched Inglorious Basterds this week.

I think the UA is supposed to represent the Germanic people before Germany was a major power.

It's sort of similar to America. If the game was based on modern America, the American civ would be very different. Manifest destiny represents America before it became a major power.

Cymsdale · Jul 19, 2013

Tyrvos said:
From what they said, it's because they want to incorporate Japan's isolationist culture, since they have been able to keep their culture unique even during globalization I guess.

So if you are going culture victory, nuke Japan. Got it.

Teholb · Jul 19, 2013

Tyrvos said:
From what they said, it's because they want to incorporate Japan's isolationist culture, since they have been able to keep their culture unique even during globalization I guess.

I quite like the sound of that.

Gyra Solune · Jul 19, 2013

Eh, it's just that Germany is so much more than war. They're the geographical center of Europe, and the bridge between all those Norse cultures in the north and the wealthier centers of power in the south. They turned the Baltic and North seas into a trading network that rivaled the Mediterranean so many other nations were built upon. And as somewhat stereotypical as it is, the productivity of an industrialized Germany was of prime quality and efficiency. Today it is easily the richest and most powerful country in Europe, despite having crushing defeats in the two most destructive wars in history and being divided in a situation easily projected to become World War III.

BNW has introduced the kind of mechanics that can allow for a much richer and more satisfying portrayal of Germany. The Hanseatic League would make a great UA, likely doing something to give a boost to secondary bonuses along Trade Routes, doubly so to city-states. A Workshop or Factory that can give loads of GE points and Specialist slots would handily represent the prowess of German engineering. And of course, pumping up the Panzer a bit by giving flanking bonuses and increased strength when backed up by an air sweep would aptly represent those ever-devastating blitzkrieg tactics.

leadtothehead · Jul 19, 2013

I have always felt UA- Furor Teutonicus only half fit the German civilization the barbarian flipping ability would fit much better with the Huns, but the reduced military cost did a good job of representing the Prussian dominated era.

How about this alternative:

Prussian administration -25% military unit maintenance cost and +2 hammers from factories.

While I play as the Germans enough that I would enjoy Gyra Solune suggestion of improving the Panzer unit, I think it could be abit unbalanced.

Gyra Solune · Jul 19, 2013

The Panzer comes so late it needs to be more useful to gain an edge off of it. It's why the Zero is so very mocked here, and the B17 is so divisive. They are very, very late-game units that are only slightly more useful than their non-unique counterparts. It is a basic rule of strategy - the later it comes, the more advantageous it has to be for it to be worthwhile. It's why Rome and Greece and Assyria and the Huns and the Zulu are so devastating. Their uniques are simple, but they come at a time when that simple advantage is a huge bonus, since it snowballs later in the game. Capturing a capital in 1500 BC yields far more strategic advantage over time than capturing it in 1962 AD, since you can utilize and build up that city far more significantly at a time when it is weaker and your opponents don't have much better they could do, and with far less resources too.

And honestly, some of those civs get more of an advantage anyway if their same bonuses were applied to the Atomic Era. +1 movement? How sweet, that compares so very favorably to Impis getting a dual attack and having all the Ikanda bonuses by that point, which include +1 movement as well. And really, having a movement bonus on an armor unit is only a tiny little difference, since the best uses I've found for mounted/armor is city sniping and getting rid of ranged/infantry units, both things that one can do handily with 4 movement. It's handy at times but hardly anything you can base an entire strategy on if you're really warring all the way into the Atomic era, whereas a lot of early-game stuff you CAN base a strategy upon. That simple increased combat strength of the Ballista means it can take out those fortified cities way more handily, when Catapults would otherwise do somewhat marginal damage, and the Legions can hold their ground way longer than Swordsmen, while your rear lines can build a roadway out and get city connections up in no time.

As it stands, the Panzer is very situational, and to base a strategy around that extra movement requires basically prescience as to where the enemy is so it isn't foiled by ZOC. The best thing it really does is gets through your own territory quickly, which, while helpful, isn't exactly reliable to utilize. Given a boost to flanking and air support means that a rush of Panzers can absolutely tear through enemy lines while backed up by an air force, a.k.a. exactly what made Panzers so deadly in the first place. Lightning warfare conquered powerful, fully industrialized nations in days, and the star of that show only gets a little movement bonus? Hardly devastating when you can be completely ruined by a stray anti-tank on the side of the road.

Dissonance · Jul 19, 2013

Gyra Solune said:
The Panzer comes so late it needs to be more useful to gain an edge off of it. It's why the Zero is so very mocked here, and the B17 is so divisive. They are very, very late-game units that are only slightly more useful than their non-unique counterparts. It is a basic rule of strategy - the later it comes, the more advantageous it has to be for it to be worthwhile. It's why Rome and Greece and Assyria and the Huns and the Zulu are so devastating. Their uniques are simple, but they come at a time when that simple advantage is a huge bonus, since it snowballs later in the game. Capturing a capital in 1500 BC yields far more strategic advantage over time than capturing it in 1962 AD, since you can utilize and build up that city far more significantly at a time when it is weaker and your opponents don't have much better they could do, and with far less resources too.

And honestly, some of those civs get more of an advantage anyway if their same bonuses were applied to the Atomic Era. +1 movement? How sweet, that compares so very favorably to Impis getting a dual attack and having all the Ikanda bonuses by that point, which include +1 movement as well. And really, having a movement bonus on an armor unit is only a tiny little difference, since the best uses I've found for mounted/armor is city sniping and getting rid of ranged/infantry units, both things that one can do handily with 4 movement. It's handy at times but hardly anything you can base an entire strategy on if you're really warring all the way into the Atomic era, whereas a lot of early-game stuff you CAN base a strategy upon. That simple increased combat strength of the Ballista means it can take out those fortified cities way more handily, when Catapults would otherwise do somewhat marginal damage, and the Legions can hold their ground way longer than Swordsmen, while your rear lines can build a roadway out and get city connections up in no time.

As it stands, the Panzer is very situational, and to base a strategy around that extra movement requires basically prescience as to where the enemy is so it isn't foiled by ZOC. The best thing it really does is gets through your own territory quickly, which, while helpful, isn't exactly reliable to utilize. Given a boost to flanking and air support means that a rush of Panzers can absolutely tear through enemy lines while backed up by an air force, a.k.a. exactly what made Panzers so deadly in the first place. Lightning warfare conquered powerful, fully industrialized nations in days, and the star of that show only gets a little movement bonus? Hardly devastating when you can be completely ruined by a stray anti-tank on the side of the road.

With that in mind, I'd remake it into:

Regain movement points upon combat victory. Can only happen once per turn. (Due to possibility of multiple attack promotions)

leadtothehead · Jul 19, 2013

Don't the Panzers get 80 strength instead of a normal Tanks 70?, so thats on top of the extra movement.

I would also argue that the lightning warfare tenant in the Autocracy tree is a big buff for the Panzer, ignoring ZoC and a 7 or 8 movement for a Panzer gives you the ability to drive deep attacks into enemies territory and with a bit of bomber support even take a capital from 5+ tiles away.

I just wouldn't want to make the Germans overpowered is all.

steveg700 · Jul 19, 2013

Tyrvos said:
UU- Landsknecht- This was famous mercenary during this time period, so it's odd that they are the average pikeman but cheaper to produce. I honestly support a change to the Doppelsoldner, a more veteran soldier often wielding a Zweihander ( so it would be under longsword and be down the military focused tree) or a gunpowder unit to reflect their strength as Prussia (such as Hessian mercenaries).

Landsknecht were imitators of the Swiss pikemen's success. Mass-producable pikemen is pretty accurate. However, they're not terribly great simply because of the weird way they upgrade to a horse unit. It has the player producing hordes that, for the most part, won't be able to evolve.

The best way to address issues like this is to offer some units multiple upgrade options.

Gyra Solune said:
Eh, it's just that Germany is so much more than war.

True, but that can be said of any major civilization. Better that they have a thematic, cohesive link than simply try to do everything well.

Gyra Solune said:
As it stands, the Panzer is very situational, and to base a strategy around that extra movement requires basically prescience as to where the enemy is so it isn't foiled by ZOC. The best thing it really does is gets through your own territory quickly, which, while helpful, isn't exactly reliable to utilize. Given a boost to flanking and air support means that a rush of Panzers can absolutely tear through enemy lines while backed up by an air force, a.k.a. exactly what made Panzers so deadly in the first place. Lightning warfare conquered powerful, fully industrialized nations in days, and the star of that show only gets a little movement bonus? Hardly devastating when you can be completely ruined by a stray anti-tank on the side of the road.

They could swipe my idea for the Hittite chariot (see sig), which is to grant a second attack if they kill a unit.

Of course, all the enemy has to do is drop an anti-tank gun in its path and it's kaput, but so it goes.

ehecatzin · Jul 19, 2013

Considering the Arabia rework, Im looking forward to the Germany and Japan update, and how they plan to tie it to the new mechanics.

For starters they could fix the Landsknecht upgrade path like they did for the Impi. And Japan could get a UB and make the Zero unlockable on Autocracy.

I agree that the ability to flip barbarians is more suited to the Huns flavour wise, however they would have to loose Animal Husbandry to compensate.

Scott Jegg · Jul 19, 2013

I've heard people say Germany got an indirect buff through an increase in barbarian activity, but I can't say I have noticed any increase at Immortal level whatsoever. Barbs are a thing of history by turn 100 in just about every game I've played (standard map), so the UA is just as useless imo, moreso now that early wars are scarce.

The main barb difference I have noticed is those hand axes healing if they pillage. Can't say for sure if all barbs do this now, but the axes do. Annoying.

Teholb · Jul 19, 2013

Scott Jegg said:
I've heard people say Germany got an indirect buff through an increase in barbarian activity, but I can't say I have noticed any increase at Immortal level whatsoever. Barbs are a thing of history by turn 100 in just about every game I've played (standard map), so the UA is just as useless imo, moreso now that early wars are scarce.

The main barb difference I have noticed is those hand axes healing if they pillage. Can't say for sure if all barbs do this now, but the axes do. Annoying.

I hate barbarian-oriented UA's. Those seem like the most chance-based and risky, imo. I wish Firaxis wouldn't include them, but I understand some people actually base strategies around them so I guess they're not so bad. It just seems like such a waste of a theme for a civ though!

Gyra Solune · Jul 19, 2013

Problem I have with Landsknechts is that I will have amassed an army of former barbarian spearmen. Their half production cost is pointless if all of the ones I will have are upgraded instead of produced. Plus it's lame when a militaristic CS has this as their unique unit. x.x

DerCivMeister · Jul 19, 2013

I for one fully believe that these two (Germany and Japan) could benefit from some changes.

Let's start with Germany. Whatever changes they have in mind, I do hope that they keep Germany military oriented. Yes, they have a great culture, but really, I kind of feel like Austria fleshes out the culture of that area of Europe enough (they are very similar, regardless of what you may say). I don't care at all for the barbarian side of the unique ability, I would be just fine if they got rid of it. The lowered maintenence cost for units is great, but of course everybody is all up in arms about that and the Zulu unique ability, which is completely justified. I wish they would have been more creative with the Zulu unique ability. Maybe just 50% faster promotions? On the unique units though, I think both of those are fine as they are. The landsknecht's half production cost and lowered maintenence allows you to wage a classic German blitzkrieg as soon as you reach civil service, and panzer tanks will absolutely dominate the late game battle field seeing as there aren't any other unique land units in that era.

And Japan. Their unique ability is great, but I kind of think there is something missing with the whole three part synergy. The samurai is a decent enough upgrade for a longswordsman, but I think getting out a decent size of them is nearly impossible to do in a reasonable timeframe. Even if you more or less beeline steel, by the time you get out ten or so samurais, plus decent ranged and siege, most AIs seem to already have musketmen and castles in every city, making full offenses incredibly difficult. Perhaps they could make the samurai a regular swordsman replacement. Iron working rushes are incredibly effective strategies for civs that have unique swordsman improvements like Rome, the Iroqouis, and the Danes. Obviously, the strength would have to be appropriately scaled to fit that of a swordsman, but I kind of think that right now, samurais are a bit too little too late. Going straight to steel would require a lot more negligence of important technologies which would ultimately result in more harm than good.

Moral of the story is, Germany has a bad unique ability with great unique units, Japan has a great unique ability with rather unimpressive unique units.

Stellarnight · Jul 19, 2013

Tyrvos said:
From what they said, it's because they want to incorporate Japan's isolationist culture, since they have been able to keep their culture unique even during globalization I guess.

That is interesting. Japan should keep the Samurai. It is way too iconic. The Zero on the other hand should be replaced by a UB or maybe a UI like a Shinto Shrine that can only be built next to forests,lakes etc. Gives faith and provides a promotion of 10% combat boost to all units that are garrison there for at least 3 turns. Requires upkeep since Shinto Shrines are state sponsored so you can't go around spamming them but provide a boost to their warmongering. Their UA can be changed to reflect their belief that the Japanese Imperial Line was unbroken and reflects their proud culture though the Isolationist tag line does make me think that they might use the Tokugawa/Edo's policy of "Sakoku" or isolationist foreign policy.

Germany in BNW

Cu Chulainn

King

Cu Chulainn

Chieftain

Chieftain

Prince

Prince

Warlord

King

Chieftain

King

Warlord

Chieftain

Deity

Emperor

Warlord

Warlord

King

Chieftain

Warlord

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