SGOTM 22 Pre-Announcement Discussion Thread

Seems like I will be designing SGOTM 22 as well. I have two scenarios prepared, both quite similar in style. But I'm not sure which one to use yet.

Are you ok with a lowered complexity for the next game? I wanted to give you a break from all the strange conditions and set a clear goal for you. Hopefully the game will be beginner-friendly and you will be able to make your PPPs one after each other without thinking 100 turns ahead all the time. Don't worry, I will provide you with some interesting challenges on the way. It wont be boring.

Do you like that idea? Playing a straight forward game next? Or do you want me to add some headache-inducing tasks and rules? And what do you think about a pre-game choice? I could offer you some boni and you chose one to start with (like different starting techs, extra units, improvements etc).

My response to the first part: Every SGOTM should be new and unique. Best form of novelty, imo: 1) clever scenario and/or 2) exposing us to features of CIV that are less used.

BSPollux said:

And what do you think about a pre-game choice? I could offer you some boni and you chose one to start with (like different starting techs, extra units, improvements etc).

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Do you mean the community as a group picks from the boni or each team might start with a different set of boni? In the first case, I don't like it. You're the mapmaker. Make it. Democracy sucks because someone's always disappointed. In the second case, I don't like it. Adds a radically random factor.

Every team would chose for itself. Its fine that you don't like it, but don't call it a random factor. There's no randomness involved. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough. You'd see your starting position and be asked to chose between several options. Maybe something like:
a) This hill has a mine and that grassland has a farm
b) Hunting tech and 30 gold
c) An additional scout and an additional warrior

BSPollux said:

Every team would chose for itself. Its fine that you don't like it, but don't call it a random factor. There's no randomness involved. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough. You'd see your starting position and be asked to chose between several options. Maybe something like:
a) This hill has a mine and that grassland has a farm
b) Hunting tech and 30 gold
c) An additional scout and an additional warrior

Click to expand...

That's as random as random can get, in my view, because one has no idea what the consequences of the decision will be. Will there be several Hunting resource tiles? Who knows? Are we on a small landmass so the scout and warrior are superfluous? Who knows? To the mapmaker it might not be random, but to players it is.

It needn't be random in practice. I'll copy/paste an example that I gave in the lurker thread, which struck me as interesting. This was taken from a MP map, where the no tech trading setting is standard.

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Leaders and civs are unrestricted, but there can only be one of each leader and one of each civ in the game.

The map is a 40x40 mirror, but the level is Prince. You have a pre-placed city with 5 culture; a Scout; and a Worker. Note the Railroad at A, the Forest Preserve on the tile west of A, the netted Whales at B, and the Town at D.



In picking your civilization:

Fishing: City has 0 culture.
Mining: Tile A becomes flatland.
Agriculture: Tile B loses Whale Boat.
Hunting: Tile C loses Forest.
The Wheel: Tile D, Town becomes Hamlet.
Mysticism: Tile E becomes Plains.​

Additionally there are some civilizations with effects should you choose them:

If you are India, you start without a Worker.
If you are Inca, you start without a Scout.
If you are Aggressive France, you start without Rice.
If you are Charismatic Russia, you start without Rice or Pigs.​

The capital will also receive a free building, depending upon your leader's traits:

Aggressive: Observatory
Charismatic: Laboratory
Creative: Barracks
Expansive: Harbor
Financial: Customs House
Imperialistic: Lighthouse
Industrious: Stables
Organized: Supermarket
Philosophical: Colosseum
Protective: Levee
Spiritual: Islamic Temple​

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The other possibility along these lines would involve the the advanced start option. IIRC, this allows teams to pick their own freebies, but I can't remember how points are allocated.

Always Peace. Ha!

I can't say that I'm in favour of SGOTM teams starting from different positions, with different Traits, or with different free techs/improvements/what-have-you. Part of the fun of the competition is that the games are somewhat comparable. Having a team get a strong advantage before the game even begins (well, in addition to stacking some teams with more experienced players) due to a couple of comparatively poorer choices by other teams doesn't really sound all that fun to me.

There is an ongoing (almost finished) BOTM game where players had to choose their starting area. I don't want to discuss details of that game, since it is still ongoing, but I think that it is okay to comment (since one can make this comment from just looking at the initial screenshot) that players who picked different starting areas cannot really compare their games to each other. While it's a neat concept for an XOTM game (even though it comes at the expense of fracturing the already hard-to-compare games due to the lack of participation meaning that you and perhaps one other player may be competing for a given Victory Condition and in this case you might not even be able to compare your game to that other person if they picked a different choice at the start), I don't think that it's a concept that belongs in an SGOTM game.


Things that I did like from recent SGOTM games:
- Spammed Horse Resources in SGOTM 20, so that no matter where you settled, you got Horses, but so did the AIs, and they didn't make for great trading bait since the AIs could all easily get said Resource themselves
- Limited nearby Strategic Resources in SGOTM 21, with no Copper; Horse and Iron available even if a team delayed settling them but not within easy reach; and the 3 closest AIs not having a duplicate Strategic Resource to be able to trade one to us
- Improvements that exist on the map, but for all teams, such as a Farm from a "destroyed City" in SGOTM 20
- Settling locations for Horse, Iron, Stone, and Marble were all accessible for a relatively long time in SGOTM 21, so that most teams would have an equal chance to settle by all of them
- AIs starting with bonuses (Shaka getting an extra Catapult, an AI who isn't close to us getting a Worker at the start)

Those first two concepts were drastically different from each other, but they were well planned within the context of working well as a combination with the bigger picture of the given map. I.e. Horses being plentiful for the human player and the AIs meant that the Horses couldn't be abused for Resource Trades. Meanwhile, a lack of Resources for the human player couldn't be made up for by getting a good trade from a nearby AI, while each of the nearby AIs did have enough Strategic Resources to have the ability to build more than just Archers. But, for example, if Shaka had 2 Copper Resources easily available to him, but in some games he settled by a second one and in other games he didn't settle by a second one, that fact could have greatly altered the game due to some teams able to get Phalanx via good trading due to a random decision made by an AI--the map-maker did a good job in preventing such a situation from possibly occurring.

Thus, a game design needs to think of the big picture and whatever elements are incorporated should work together smoothly.

As for improvements existing on the map at the start of the game, make them a standard feature of the map for all players to experience.


As for simpler or not, which Difficulty Level to pick, etc, I don't think that these decisions should be made independently. A well-crafted scenario always takes the complete picture into account when each individual decision is made. And, yes, there can be several HUNDRED small decisions that can go into a map's design, so asking for feedback on one or two points would, in my opinion, only help you to decide between offering Complete Scenario A vs Complete Scenario B and thus such input should not necessarily cause a change in a given scenario unless that change is considered as part of the bigger picture of all of the other decisions that went into a map's design.

OK, the initial reaction to the chose-your-bonus idea is quite negative, so it's out.

Good. I concur that it would have added a bit more luck to the game. That said, greatly appreciate your efforts to make the SGOTM different and challenging and (last game) to constantly monitor the play.

I dont know why do you think the reaction is negative if only a few gave a vote.

For me it is quite interesting and worth trying, especially in Doshin's version


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some ideas to make a game really chalanging
- give Civil Service to all AIs
OR
- add towns near AIs
- every worker still early in the game is -5 turns of victory o_O
- Slavery prohibited after turn X
- give us missions, that are uncovered in certain conditions. The missions are not necessairy, give huge award in -turns at the end of game, but to complete them we need to get very unconvienient restrictions (run Paganism until Mission is finished etc.)

(but please, give us at least 2 months to rest )

You can try a time game, that might be a refreshing change.

100% cash+espionage space race with No Mansa. You give us Alpha and 2 spies at start

BSPollux said:

And what do you think about a pre-game choice? I could offer you some boni and you chose one to start with (like different starting techs, extra units, improvements etc).

Click to expand...

I always wanted to play an 'advanced start' game and your idea sounds a lot like that even tho the game would still start at 4000 BC. It think it would be fun to discuss how to best spend your 'points'. Have the teams make their choices before the saves are even released.

Cactus Pete used the word I was looking for: Luck. (Rather than "random.") BSP will have to be very sophisticated to minimize any luck entering into the game based on the choices we can make in advance of the game. I don't doubt BSP is up to the task but then those choices and the necessary protections to keep the game fair also provide information to clever sleuths about the map. For instance, using Doshin's example, we can conclude that the map has overseas AIs (not pangaea, donut, et cetera) because otherwise free custom houses would have absolutely no value.

To ponder the luck factor, consider this: What if we have to make the choices based on no map knowledge whatsoever? Picking Doshin's lighthouse or customs house would give you a building no one else can build on that lake, but you don't know it's a lake. How much map knowledge is necessary to reduce the luck to marginal?

Start a game with almost every tech for a space victory apart from rocketry (I mean the techs for the parts for the spaceships. Not every tech up to them.). Let the fun and games begin towards a space victory. I shudder to think what first build the Ai might pick. Of course give the Ai every help towards other victories to make it a bit more fun.

Gumbolt said:

Start a game with almost every tech for a space victory apart from rocketry (I mean the techs for the parts for the spaceships. Not every tech up to them.). Let the fun and games begin towards a space victory. I shudder to think what first build the Ai might pick. Of course give the Ai every help towards other victories to make it a bit more fun.

Click to expand...

Interesting idea. It could work quite well. You'd get +3 health in all cities as a huge bonus, otherwise not much help from the techs. You'd be able to build recycle centers from the start (better not give ecology to the AI or they'll probably start on a recycling center t0 ) and labs once you get observatories up, but that's not very game changing. It seems the worldmap can be hidden again after revealing it with satellites. And Kremlin would be obsolete from the start...

At some point I had a look through old SGOTM games and found that no FIN leaders have been played in BTS SGOTMs. Not that I mind, FIN is boring... But the least played other traits are SPI and AGG. I'd love to see some SPI action in a SGOTM, and would be quite fun with sacrificial altars as well, so give us a Monty game, please.

If the leader isn't dictated by theme, I try to pick one that doesn't fit the task perfectly but offers some strategic benefits.

As long as we're brainstorming ideas, how about a Quick game with a Modern start and the game only lasts 1 month. That could even be a game in between longer games so people can take a break or not.

Well YOU are brainstorming. My game is ready, basically. As long as no one objects.