Proposed new unit upgrade paths

I've seen quite a few topics here and on 2K's forums recently regarding complaints with unit upgrade paths. Specifically, the pike -> lancer upgrade is getting a lot of controversey. Personally, I think the entire unit upgrade tree could use some work. There's a lot of overlap of roles, gaps in the lines, terminating lines, etc. Surely, there must be a better way of keeping more defined unit roles.

A few suggestions for revised upgrade paths (new units in bold):

I'll ignore ranged and seige weapons, since those paths are fine.

Keep spears & pikes as default infantry unit and flesh out other paths:
basic infantry (defense): spear -> pike -> musket -> rifle -> infantry
assault melee: warrior -> sword -> longsword -> grenadier/fusilier -> flamethrower? -> Marine / Paratrooper?
mobile: horseman -> knight -> cavalry -> landship -> tank -> armour
anti-mobile (offense): lancer -> AT gun (3 movement) (obsoleted by air units)
skirmisher (mounted ranged): chariot -> light cavalry -> dragoon (range 1) -> helicopter (range 1 or 2) / paratrooper (airdrop)

OR

Move spears & pikes to own niche and create new default infantry line:
basic infantry: warrior -> axe -> mace -> musket -> rifle -> infantry
assault melee: sword -> longsword -> grenadier/fusilier -> flamethrower? -> Marine / paratrooper?
mobile: hoseman -> knight -> cavalry -> landship -> tank -> armour
anti-mobile: spear -> pike -> lancer -> dragoon -> AT Gun (move 3) -> helicopter
skirmisher (mounted ranged): chariot

OR

Move spears & pikes to own niche, create new default infantry line, and flesh out other paths:
basic infantry: warrior -> axe -> mace -> musket -> rifle -> infantry
assault melee: warrior -> sword -> longsword -> grenadier/fusilier -> flamethrower? -> Marine / Paratrooper?
mobile: horseman -> knight -> cavalry -> landship -> tank -> armour
anti-mobile: spear -> pike -> lancer -> AT Gun (move 3)
skirmisher (mounted ranged): chariot -> light cavalry -> dragoon (range 1) -> helicopter (range 1 or 2) / paratrooper (airdrop)

The first solution, I think, is simplest, since it requires the fewest new units, and they can all retain their place on the tech tree.
The second solution allows spears/pikes to be a specialty unit, but it makes them less viable as the "backbone" of a civilization's army. It would also likely require significant tech tree changes. Where would the axe and mace units appear on the tree?
The third solution is a hybrid of the two and has all the benefits and drawbacks of each.

I also think there definitely needs to be an expansion of the "scout" line:
scouting: scout -> explorer (medeival, Compass) -> Patrol (late renaissance horse unit ?) -> Commando/Jeep (modern, Radio)

I'd love a decent upgrade path for the chariot, having a fast ranged unit is quite interesting but not essential, and losing those promotions make them unappealing. Something like horse artillery would be a fun upgrade.

On the other hand I'm alright with pikes upgrading to lancers. It's a disincentive to rely on them as your rank and file and avoid the military tech path, you can do it but you lose your promotions when you have to change to completely different units later on. This suits more defensive players who generally won't have built up as many promotions.

Edit: The scout really does need an upgrade path too, but I'd be content if they just upgrade to horsemen. I use them for pretty much the same role, a fast moving unit to scout ahead with increased visibility. If the scout's promotions were added to the horsemen that would be great too.

SicklyAlbatross said:

On the other hand I'm alright with pikes upgrading to lancers. It's a disincentive to rely on them as your rank and file and avoid the military tech path, you can do it but you lose your promotions when you have to change to completely different units later on. This suits more defensive players who generally won't have built up as many promotions.

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That's not always up to the player though. It depends on your access to Iron. And that's kind of the whole point. None of the other eras force the player to rely on a strategic resource for its default defensive army. Whether you like it or not, that IS one of the roles of Pikemen. So unless that changes (i.e. a new resource-less medieval infantry is added), then the Pikeman remains a dual-purpose unit, and should not be upgraded to such a limited specialty unit.

The game shouldn't be "disincentivising" the player from doing things that they need to do in order to survive.

SicklyAlbatross said:

Edit: The scout really does need an upgrade path too, but I'd be content if they just upgrade to horsemen. I use them for pretty much the same role, a fast moving unit to scout ahead with increased visibility. If the scout's promotions were added to the horsemen that would be great too.

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Yeah, I usually use Knights upgraded with +1 Visibility as my Medieval / Renaissance scouts too. My problem isn't so much with there not being a way to scout (Knights work fine); my problem is that I generally build at least 2 or 3 Scouts, and they usually get 2 or 3 promotions each. It's a shame that those units become useless by a third of the way through the game. At the very least, it would be nice for scouts to have an upgrade path that allows them to compete with contemporary barbarian units. Even if they have really low strength, an Scout upgrade with +100% v barbarians would be fine.

I think the simplest would be to allow Pikes roles to vanish
(Pikes->Muskets or Rifles)

and put lancers in the mounted line
(Knight->Lancer->Cavalry)
[that is a little bit short for Lancers, but longswords to muskets also have a short time, so similar solutions could be used. UU longswords upgrade at Metallutgy instead of Gunpowder, so Lancer UU could upgrade at Dynamite instead of Military Science.]


Chariot Archers->Crossbows
Keshiks+Camel Archers->Gatling guns


This way no new units are needed
(the one other change I would make is to give AT guns the Helicopter promotions)

I think that Scouts should become some kind of Mounted Explorer that works basically like a half-Conquistador, with added sight range and movement and embarkment speed, but not meant for combat, which later in the game becomes a Recon Helicopter with a huge sight range and fast movement, alongside not needing to embark to cross water, but lower defensive strength and offense compared to other units of its era. They keep the same promotion path and whatnot, so yay.

I kinda feel like the late-game units need to just be completely shuffled around in what they upgrade to and from and what roles they serve, but I am not wholly certain how to go about. The Anti-Aircraft line and Marine should be upgades of something, I just don't know what. I suggested making the Archer line become Anti-Aircraft, and they be changed into a somewhat more cumbersome ranged unit that works best at city defense (as opposed to now where they're basically infantry defended from air attacks), but then I don't know what to do with Machine Guns and Gatling Guns. Lancers should definitely be in the mounted line though, yes/

Why not simply pike -> musket? Alternatively, pike -> rifle since the introduction of repeating rifle was what actually made pikes obsolete.

I liked how in earlier versions of Civ V, longswordsmen were actually a bit stronger than musketmen. It made sense to me, given the unreliability of early firearms and the fact that longswordsmen require a resource which musketmen don't. So I'd buff longswords or nerf muskets and make longswords upgrade to riflemen.

I think it's kind of silly to have strictly linear upgrade paths for military units, I liked how Civilization IV allowed players to choose what unit to upgrade into in certain circumstances, like upgrading a Musketman and having to choose between a Rifleman and a Grenadier.

In Civilization V terms, I'd like to be able to choose between upgrading a Warrior into either a Spearman or a Swordsman. I'd like to have the choice of upgrading a Knight into either a Cavalry unit or a Lancer. These are the only examples that come to mind, but I'm sure I could think of many more.

VainoValkea said:

Why not simply pike -> musket? Alternatively, pike -> rifle since the introduction of repeating rifle was what actually made pikes obsolete.

I liked how in earlier versions of Civ V, longswordsmen were actually a bit stronger than musketmen. It made sense to me, given the unreliability of early firearms and the fact that longswordsmen require a resource which musketmen don't. So I'd buff longswords or nerf muskets and make longswords upgrade to riflemen.

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I also preffered the vanilla upgrade paths. I liked that Muskets were weaker than Longswords because it meant that they were contemporary units for a short time. I do kind of wish that Gunpowder was in the top-half (science line) of the tech tree instead of the military line.

mintcandy said:

I think it's kind of silly to have strictly linear upgrade paths for military units, I liked how Civilization IV allowed players to choose what unit to upgrade into in certain circumstances, like upgrading a Musketman and having to choose between a Rifleman and a Grenadier.

In Civilization V terms, I'd like to be able to choose between upgrading a Warrior into either a Spearman or a Swordsman. I'd like to have the choice of upgrading a Knight into either a Cavalry unit or a Lancer. These are the only examples that come to mind, but I'm sure I could think of many more.

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This would be ideal. I wonder how difficult it would be to mod the game to allow multiple upgrade options. Some situations where this might be appropriate:

Pike -> Musket OR Lancer
Chariot -> Knight OR Crossbow
Cavalry -> Landship OR Helicopter
Lancer -> AT Gun OR Landship
Great War Infantry -> Infantry OR Marine OR Paratrooper
Trireme -> Caravel OR Privateer
Privateer -> Destroyer OR Submarine
Scout -> Horseman OR Composite Bow OR Musket

I definitely agree with the creator of this thread. The first solution is the best I think.

mintcandy said:

In Civilization V terms, I'd like to be able to choose between upgrading a Warrior into either a Spearman or a Swordsman. I'd like to have the choice of upgrading a Knight into either a Cavalry unit or a Lancer. These are the only examples that come to mind, but I'm sure I could think of many more.

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Forgot to mention my idea for the Scout "line". I'd like to see it branch off into reconnaissance airborne vehicles, which could eventually be upgraded into the traditional Fighter air superiority line.