Revolution

It is time to begin preparations for a revolution. We need to be able to use money to rush improvements, increase our production, reduce corruption and waste, and allow our cities to make full use of food resources.

My suggestions are as follows:

1. Once we have finished the Americans, pull back our offensive forces to defend our borders. An analysis of the feasibility of this from the Military Leader would be much appreciated.

2. Complete the Heroic Epic. Not a problem, as it is almost done.

3. Rush cultural improvements in all cities that do not have one, and make sure they are connected to the trade network. This will be put to a poll.

4. Make peace with the Egyptians and possibly the Greeks. The biggest fear I have during the revolution is our inability to build units for 3-7 turns. This would greatly relieve pressure on our borders.

5. Finish researching feudalism, so that we can upgrade spearmen to defend our border cities. 16 turns away. I suggest we make this the target date for the revolution.

Please offer your suggestions, as a well managed revolution is very important to our nation's well being.

I also suggest that we do not choose a government until the revolution is over. At present, monarchy is our best option because we have been at war a long time. However, the oppurtunity for multiple peace treaties may present itself in the interim.

I think this is an excellent plan. I concur on all points.

Even though I would like to give those Egyptians something to dream bad dreams about, it can wait.

I like your ideas, and I will fully support the whippings of Libraries in every city, maybe even temples.

We have 4 luxaries so our cities would be able to handle it.

Excellent plan, Eyrei. I'm sort of wary how far our conquest can go without leaving us vunerable in some way. Perhaps our military leader can comment on this as well. I'm not sure how much we will gain in taking many more cities, which we will also have to defend. Our Immortals have gone beyond our corruption borders & new cities may not contribute a whole lot to us at the moment.

So far, I like the production of more defensive units (or any units), as suggested by Eyrei. I also like allowing a cultural building or 2 per city, even at the expense of a rush effort, when it can save maximum time and minimum cost. I would not suggest we put all cities on 40 turn buildings & wait the whole time

Troops are needed. We have undefended cities (albeit far from our enemies, deep in our territory) and some nuisances in our territory. Sorry, I always worry about lucky AI battles, it is my nature... I will do my best in grabbing a spear and defending Fox Nest!

Perhaps a goal of ours could be to also settle some of the open land we have near our capital. However, defending it would be hard with our current war situation. I'd like to say we should keep trying to make peace. But it seems like if we can't get peace with nearly everyone at once, we are certain to get dominoed again.

Also, switching govts, I think it's tough to plan when to do it, so I think we best wait until we can at least afford to switch. I suggest we should be at war with no more than 2 civs or secure enough to undergo anarchy for too long.

So, I think we should also:
- Cleanse our land of the evil foes.
- Aim for peace with civs we have no interest in pursuing a war against.
- Try to make peace with these civs in or around the same turn.
- Re-adjust our outlook on where we would like our Immortals to conquer.
- After "mostly" peace, re-examine our govt situation. If we feel we can afford a switch, go for it!
- Assess where a Forbidden palace would best serve us.

I like your plan, only reservation I have is we should have a Republic up and running after war and before Education is discovered.

I would like to have peace with all the civs around us, however Rome has testifed to the opposite. No less then 2 turns after we swallowed our pride and tried to find peace *poof* guess who signes a military alliance against us? In my opinion, the sooner we can get out of war, the better, but it is easier said then done when all the richest powers want to keep us down

I agree with the general outlines of this plan, but echo Falcon's concern/suggestion, I would ideally like to be able to switch to republic, or at least have that option. I would not want to switch to monarchy, then have to change again in 20-30 turns.

I STRONGLY support the building of Libraries in all cities, and temples in those that don't have them/already have libraries.
This will be our last chance to use the blood, sweat and tears of our people to build a foundation that our culture will rest on for centuries!

I do believe that the Great Library continues to function during our anarchy, so we could still accumulate an occasional tech, if we do it before Education.

Now that our golden age is over we should pump out enough immortals (or proto-immortals) to see us through the anarchy period. We we have enough forces to defend our country from immediate attack we should switch to monarchy.

Then when we are in monarchy we can start rushing improvements with gold.

Let us put our whips away! We have no goal to get a cerytain type of victory. We gave no goal to reach a certain score level. We do not need to whip improvements in despotism in order for our country to survive. Let us put our whips away!

We are not ready for a republic. We have no markets. We have no trade agreements with our neighbors. We have only war. We have tried to make peace with some and they merely declared war on us again! We are not ready for a republic!

Originally posted by donsig

We are not ready for a republic. We have no markets. We have no trade agreements with our neighbors. We have only war. We have tried to make peace with some and they merely declared war on us again! We are not ready for a republic!

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But we don't need trade agreements immediately, as we have access to 4 luxuries already. We do need peace though, for republic. If we cannot get peace, monarchy will be the obvious choice. We would also have the option of remaining in despotism until we discover education, as we will not have to do our own research.

I doubt we will get peace - we tried it and those who treated with us only declared war again. We need a war-time government. The crux of the matter is rushing production. Some of us do not like the use of the whip and prefer to use gold to rush improvements. Personally I would support staying in despotism until lasting peace is achieved and the switch to republic is made if we refrain from whipping.

Originally posted by donsig
I doubt we will get peace - we tried it and those who treated with us only declared war again. We need a war-time government. The crux of the matter is rushing production. Some of us do not like the use of the whip and prefer to use gold to rush improvements. Personally I would support staying in despotism until lasting peace is achieved and the switch to republic is made if we refrain from whipping.

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There is, however, no point in staying in despotism if we do not use the whip. If we are willing to spend a good deal of money, we can probably get peace treaties. This ongoing war is keeping most of these other civs from switching to republic, as well. And for some it is the preferred government.

OK, time for one of my odd questions again. With the Great Library in our possesion, Democracy can be a short 5 advances away. What, in Donsig's and Eyrei's opinion are the pro's and con's of switching to Monarchy and riding that out till we get Democracy? Just skip the Republic.

Originally posted by Cyc
OK, time for one of my odd questions again. With the Great Library in our possesion, Democracy can be a short 5 advances away. What, in Donsig's and Eyrei's opinion are the pro's and con's of switching to Monarchy and riding that out till we get Democracy? Just skip the Republic.

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In my opinion, republic is a superior government to democracy in Civ3. The additional benefits of democracy compared to republic are :

1. Increased worker speed. Since we are industrious, our workers are already faster than normal, making this far less important.

2. Slightly reduced corruption. With good placement of the forbidden palace, and good management of happiness in our cities, as well as the construction of courthouses and police stations, this difference is negligable.

The main difference between republic and democracy has to do with war weariness. In a world where everyone seems to hate us this is a very important factor. War weariness is significantly less in republic, especially when we are not the aggressor, and will allow us to call the bluffs of civs that wish to threaten us.

We should try to make peace with all the civs and go for republic, it goes so much faster to research in republic. And when we discover education, the tech race will become very important.

I'm not sure about the relative merits of democracy versus republic but eyrei seems to know what he's talking about. I would add that I have been in a succession game where we stayed a republic, had lots of wars and still launched a space ship. I've also had a democracy full of happy people turn to anarchy during a war. I would say down the road if we can secure lasting peace then democracy is preferable to republic. That choice lies far in the future.

I think we should decide now whether despotism, monarchy or republic is what we should use now. I think republic does not suit our needs well now. I also think monarchy would be better than despotism now. (No whipping plus we'd lose the food penalties of despotism. Food=population=power.)

Originally posted by donsig
I think we should decide now whether despotism, monarchy or republic is what we should use now. I think republic does not suit our needs well now. I also think monarchy would be better than despotism now. (No whipping plus we'd lose the food penalties of despotism. Food=population=power.)

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On this I definately agree. I cannot honestly say which would be better right now, republic or monarchy, though I am sure that we need to leave despotism for many reasons. Republic would be better, but there is some possibility that we would have trouble with war weariness immediately upon switching, if we are still involved in many wars. It is my understanding that war weariness is calculated regardless of the government you are in, but is only applied if you are republic or democracy. Therefore, war weariness has been accumulating over the many years we have been fighting, and would hit us immediately upon switching to republic unless we can make peace with all but a couple of civs in the interim. Unless the military situation changes, monarchy is probably our best bet, though for the long term, I much prefer republic.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Republic as govt. as much as most. It's the way to go to build that infrastructure. I think that both of you are kind of agreeing on Monarchy, which is what I'd choose. An additional plus is, as Eyrei mentioned, by switching to Monarchy and expanding our borders through war on the locals, we are keeping the other AI from going to their preferred govt. That is a good thing, is it not?

When considering whether monarchy or republic is better now we should take into account the effects on our treasury. We have a large surplus because we do not pay to support our military. Switching to monarchy or republic now will change this. Anyone know what our current military would cost under the two proposed governments?

Originally posted by donsig
When considering whether monarchy or republic is better now we should take into account the effects on our treasury. We have a large surplus because we do not pay to support our military. Switching to monarchy or republic now will change this. Anyone know what our current military would cost under the two proposed governments?

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A good point, and something worth investigating. Obviously, under republic, we would need to pay for each unit. Monarchy would support 2 for a town, 4 for a city, and 8 for a metropolis. I believe Fox's Nest is our only city, although PDX is probaby pretty close. Currently, we can support 80 units (4 from each of 20 cities). We have 59 units total. Under monarchy we would be able to support 43 currently, though this would quickly grow as the ability to use food bonuses to their max helped our towns to become cities. My guess is that we would be able to support our full military within 40 turns of switching to monarchy just with free support. When you factor in reduced corruption and the maximization of commerce bonuses, it would actually be much sooner.

If we have to pay for 16 units per turn under monarchy (one gold each, right?) wouldn't we still have around 20 gold/turn surplus? Might be worth it. We're building more units but founding and capturing more cities as well. We should see much success against Egypt soon.