Are you going to get BNW asap? (a poll)

Are you going to get BNW on or before 13th of July?


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    31

EEE_BOY

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13th of July, that's the definition of asap.:cool:

This thread serves two purposes: firstly to get an idea of who can play BNW mp for that weekend; and secondly to discuss hotseat game options immediately after BNW release. :p

If you vote the poll, your name will be recorded.

If you are interested in hotseat game, please read the second post and onwards.
 
A hotseat game proposal with all 9 new civs plus France to make it a large, Fractal and quick speed. Turn order reverse-alphabetically starting with Venice (host), S..., .... Assyria, then Zulu (As the last two will most likely war instead of wonder building).

Special rule No.1: If a player declares war for the second time on the second player (assume the player has won the first war) AND the player's score is within top 2, the rest of players should automatically declear on that player until the score drops out top 2. If the second war decleared but not top 2 yet, during the war once top 2 reached, all war.

Special rule No. 2: Once ideologies adopted, different ideologic nations should be restricted to trading ONE set of luxury and open border only. No vote trading, DoF or anything else allowed.

Are these two rules reasonable and feasible to implement?
 
Hotseat game as in GMR or any other way that I dont have to sit in front of the computer hours on end? If so then I might just have to get the game asap.
 
Hotseat game as in GMR or any other way that I dont have to sit in front of the computer hours on end? If so then I might just have to get the game asap.

Yes. GMR is one of the hotseat options, but we don't know what features of the official version of the hotseat.;)
 
Yes! Definitively
 
I am also going to buy BNW ASAP.
A hotseat game proposal with all 9 new civs plus France to make it a large, Fractal and quick speed. Turn order reverse-alphabetically starting with Venice (host), S..., .... Assyria, then Zulu (As the last two will most likely war instead of wonder building).

Are these two rules reasonable and feasible to implement?
As I know, fractal map is pretty random. Maybe we should play on Terra or Middle Sea map? As I don't like the idea of playing on continents (separated by oceans map) because it's hard to influence on the situation on another continent.
I'd prefer that 10 players would choose their 10 new BNW civs in random basis (because, there are rather weak civs in MP, like Venice or Brazil), and the turn order would be optimized according to the players' suitable timeframes to make their turns.

Special rule No.1: If a player declares war for the second time on the second player (assume the player has won the first war) AND the player's score is within top 2, the rest of players should automatically declear on that player until the score drops out top 2. If the second war decleared but not top 2 yet, during the war once top 2 reached, all war.
I don't think that we should apply any restrictions for diplomacy. We are human players rather than AI. There should be a single rule: ONLY one player can be considered as a winner of the game. Alliance of civs cannot win the game. If your ally won the game, then you have lost as did other game participants.

Special rule No. 2: Once ideologies adopted, different ideologic nations should be restricted to trading ONE set of luxury and open border only. No vote trading, DoF or anything else allowed.
Maybe we should play the first hotseat game on BNW as it is with minimum number of restrictions? Because we are not aware of all the pros and cons of BNW in MP compared with G&K yet.
 
I am also going to buy BNW ASAP.

:goodjob: Great!

As I know, fractal map is pretty random.
I thought fractal tends to give snaky continents? In that case, maybe Oval and low sea for the random bays? or any new BNW map that gives enough coastal area but not entirely naval oriented.

Maybe we should play on Terra or Middle Sea map? As I don't like the idea of playing on continents (separated by oceans map) because it's hard to influence on the situation on another continent.
Terra gives large continents as in one of our current games. What is middle sea map?


I'd prefer that 10 players would choose their 10 new BNW civs in random basis (because, there are rather weak civs in MP, like Venice or Brazil), and the turn order would be optimized according to the players' suitable timeframes to make their turns.

Actually I want to play Venice myself:) as for Brazil, I think it is an Ok civ for MP if it is allowed to get some key wonders for tourism.
I found the time zone is not that important if the timer is 3 days so long as player is consistent.

I don't think that we should apply any restrictions for diplomacy. We are human players rather than AI. There should be a single rule: ONLY one player can be considered as a winner of the game. Alliance of civs cannot win the game. If your ally won the game, then you have lost as did other game participants.


Maybe we should play the first hotseat game on BNW as it is with minimum number of restrictions? Because we are not aware of all the pros and cons of BNW in MP compared with G&K yet.

If you recall the game that I was Russia and you are Songhai, There was some moment that happiness was very problematic, but with Aztec's help Russia can survive there. Also in an early naval game where Tab's Carthage was dominating the war front, but it takes so much communications to rally an alliance to try to stop the aggression, and Tab also knows well that if he wants to be aggressive, he will be well prepared to dow everyone in the first place. :D So why not make it more explicit?

Players are not always for win, or may not even care about winning since there can only be one winner, but rather random and emotional. The special rules are here to prevent the warmonger from snow balling too easily (which should be stopped with the whole world's effort). Consider the warmonger has one opportunity to expand through war by annexing the first victim civ, but further aggressive expansion should be more cautious. This is similar to SP, where aggressive play style tends to result in bad relation with AIs. Also the late game ideological conflict was a great design in SP, and we should try to mimic designer's intention to recreate the conflict by imposing this special rule, otherwise it will not be that different from normal mp games that focus too much on war and random diplomacy (you know I tend to do badly in random diplomacy :p).
 
I thought fractal tends to give snaky continents? In that case, maybe Oval and low sea for the random bays? or any new BNW map that gives enough coastal area but not entirely naval oriented.
Oval is certainly convinient as long as all civs will be able to settle at least one coastal civs. I think if the civ stacks without any coastal cities, it will generate much less gold from international trade compared with other civs.

Terra gives large continents as in one of our current games. What is middle sea map?
Terra is one of my favourite maps because it presents some overseas colonisation opportunities after teching to Astronomy. And all civs live on one common continent.
Middle Sea map is very similar to medditerenean sea map: a very large sea in the center of the map, and all civs will be able to settle at least one city on its coast. It also provides some opportunity to MP games: every civ has nearly equal geopolitical placement, because each civ will often have only two close neighbors.

Actually I want to play Venice myself as for Brazil, I think it is an Ok civ for MP if it is allowed to get some key wonders for tourism.
I found the time zone is not that important if the timer is 3 days so long as player is consistent.
then it's OK.

If you recall the game that I was Russia and you are Songhai, There was some moment that happiness was very problematic, but with Aztec's help Russia can survive there. Also in an early naval game where Tab's Carthage was dominating the war front, but it takes so much communications to rally an alliance to try to stop the aggression, and Tab also knows well that if he wants to be aggressive, he will be well prepared to dow everyone in the first place. So why not make it more explicit?

Players are not always for win, or may not even care about winning since there can only be one winner, but rather random and emotional. The special rules are here to prevent the warmonger from snow balling too easily (which should be stopped with the whole world's effort). Consider the warmonger has one opportunity to expand through war by annexing the first victim civ, but further aggressive expansion should be more cautious. This is similar to SP, where aggressive play style tends to result in bad relation with AIs. Also the late game ideological conflict was a great design in SP, and we should try to mimic designer's intention to recreate the conflict by imposing this special rule, otherwise it will not be that different from normal mp games that focus too much on war and random diplomacy (you know I tend to do badly in random diplomacy ).
I do somewhat agree with the second special rule, but yet I don't appreciate much the first rule.
IMHO it'll be more difficult for warmongers to expand rapidly in BNW, because a new concept of World Congress is presented. Weak civs will be able to unite their votes and push through some resolutions which make the life of the warmonger civ very hard. They can increase cost of standing armies, make invalid for trade luxes in the lands of the warmonger. Also it will be difficult for warmonger civs to support international trade routes, because they will have more enemies in general which will try to pillage their routes.
 
Maybe some new maps will be available and some early testings should be done before choose.
 
Players are not always for win, or may not even care about winning since there can only be one winner, but rather random and emotional. The special rules are here to prevent the warmonger from snow balling too easily (which should be stopped with the whole world's effort). Consider the warmonger has one opportunity to expand through war by annexing the first victim civ, but further aggressive expansion should be more cautious. This is similar to SP, where aggressive play style tends to result in bad relation with AIs.

I take issue with the proposal of this rule, but before challenging it I really truly want to understand why it has been proposed, because I know there can't be any understanding until that happens. I have no understanding of why the idea of this rule seems good to you.
I hope this post is not seen as a wall of text, but as a carefully written invitation to an explanation. I hope the attention I gave to it shows my earnesty in actual dialogue with you.

So, in this part of the post, you just modeled ideal Human play on the behaviour of A.I.s. While the A.I.s do have a rationality that I know you see and many don't, you do know that in the end, the A.I.'s behaviour ought to be modeled on ideal Human play. That was backwards.

I recognize the statement that competitive play and casual play are different things, and keeping these camps separate is best for everyone. So compare the following two scenarios:

Players can play however they want within sporting conditions (not being abusive, playing to the end, possibly communication rules etc.), plus the vow to "try to win." The actions of any players, plus the static world conditions, combine to grant players who detect weaknesses and openings certain opportunities to advance on the world stage. Asymmetries that appear in strength are dealt with under the complete freedom of every other player, who continue in this way until the game rules declare an end.

Players play within sporting conditions, plus the vow to "try to win," and additionally obey a compulsion to oppose a "leader", defined in a computational sense, to the exclusion of any would-be conflicting game choice made for one's civ, whether based on that player's appraisal of competitive merit or otherwise. Every asymmetry has been preplotted, the exact time for this "joint opposition" to be triggered is established before any game begins, and players continue this way until the game rules declare an end.

Your view seems to be to prefer games played on the second model, not just that, but that having a league of games played of that sort is more constructive than a league of games played of the first. I don't get it. Firstly, I assume you do not propose to have players specifically do things not to their game advantage. Given that, surely you do not propose that any machine can tell when a broad change in play strategy policy is the the best strategic move. When it is absolutely required for victory? Maybe.

There is a point where it is obvious, yes. Suppose victory is a known number of moves away. Everyone will see that. But obviously, there are times when the move is not obvious. Either the victory is not an obvious number of moves away, or there is doubt about the reality of the victory being there. By 'not obvious', I mean some player might not see it.

Competitive strategy games are generally about the difference in players' ability to see the good moves. This is what I don't understand about the commonality of this kind of policy and thinking for Civilization league games. If all the moves players should do really can be plotted, why are the players playing it instead of machines? In my view, I learn things when I play games with people. And if they swear on their honour they are trying honestly to win, I learn things about strategy too.

How do you propose that you would ever already know what the players 'have' to do, but would want to play it out with free willed players anyway? What is their role in being there?
 
I do somewhat agree with the second special rule, but yet I don't appreciate much the first rule.
IMHO it'll be more difficult for warmongers to expand rapidly in BNW, because a new concept of World Congress is presented.
The first rule seems too much, now that I think of it, maybe the World Congress do have some power to reshape the diplomacy.
Assyria and Zulu may not want the first rule as they probably need to conquest during the whole game.

About the second rule, maybe WC vote trading should be ok for civs with different ideologies? Limited lux trading and no DoF seem to be reasonable?:mischief:

Maybe some new maps will be available and some early testings should be done before choose.

Canada counts as international? then we have to watch closely about new map info during 9-12th.

a carefully written invitation to an explanation.
:D It does look like a thesis for the first read, so I read a few times. Points taken :goodjob:
 
About the second rule, maybe WC vote trading should be ok for civs with different ideologies? Limited lux trading and no DoF seem to be reasonable?:mischief:
Yea, I think we should not put too many restrictions on relations of civs with different ideologies.
 
Never played an online multiplayer before, but with BNW on it's way I want to give it a try. If you don't mind I'd like to join up. I'll only realistically be able to play a turn a day though, I hope that isn't an issue.
 
Canada counts as international? then we have to watch closely about new map info during 9-12th.

:

Nope, Canada is located in North America and we will be able to play the game on the 9th :)
 
Maybe some new maps will be available and some early testings should be done before choose.

Nope, Canada is located in North America and we will be able to play the game on the 9th :)

Great! you guys have chance to play test a few maps (information era start with satelite), to see which ones are pangea based map with a lot of coastal cities potential.:goodjob:
 
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