Moderator Action: Because the 2-13 and 2-03 proposals are linked, but not exactly counterproposals, I'm going to include options for them in the same poll. The reason why they are linked is that proposal 3's rationale is based on early naval units only being available at Sailing, while several 2-13 proposals would make them available at Fishing instead.
Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" for every proposal you'd be okay with if it were implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if these proposals weren't implemented. You can vote for any number of options.
The votes for 2-13 and 2-03 are SEPARATE; they are simply being conducted here because they are linked.
All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.
VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 13
Discussion Thread: (2-13) Proposal: Early Naval Unit rework
Proposer: @balparmak
Sponsor: @pineappledan
Proposal Details
Proposed Changes:
- Add a Galley melee boat at Fishing, move the trireme back to Philosophy.
- Carthage UU changed to Bireme (Galley replacement).
- Dromon renamed to Penteconter, retains the same model but uses arrows instead of flames in attacking.
- Barbarians cannot spawn Galleys until 80% of civs have researched Fishing
- Barbarian Galleys have same stats as player Galleys
Galley
Available at Fishing
70
3
12
Bireme (Carthage Galley replacement)
Available at Fishing
70
3
14
Heavy Assault
Pincer
Trireme
Available at Philosophy
120
4
18
VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 13a
Discussion Thread: (2-13a) Counterproposal: Early Naval Unit rework
Proposer: @pineappledan
Sponsor: @pineappledan
Proposal Details
A Response and re-submission of this proposal
Proposed Change:
Add a Galley melee boat at Fishing, move the trireme back to Philosophy, and cosmetic changes to the Dromon.
Reasoning:
- Barbarian Galleys have same stats as player Galleys
VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 13b
Discussion Thread: (2-13b) Counterproposal: Remove Barbarian Galley
Proposer: @Stalker0
Sponsor: @Recursive
Proposal Details
Proposal: Remove the barbarian galley from the game. The first barbarian naval unit will be the Trireme when it comes online.
Rationale: Currently Barbarians can get naval units earlier than major civs can, making them nigh unbeatable. either the player should have ships to beat them (which is the original proposal) or the barb ships should be removed (this proposal).
VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 13c
Discussion Thread: (2-13c) Counterproposal: Give players Galleys and make them weaker
Proposer: @rkkn
Sponsor: @rkkn
Proposal Details
Galley unlocked at Pottery for players
55, 3 , 9
Barbarian Galley: same stats, except 8
This is a simpler proposal with no changes to Triremes.
The problem being addressed here is that barbarians can swarm early cities with galleys or keep players from exploring islands. I think removing galleys entirely is far too heavy-handed. The problem is simply that players can't really do anything about them. They are too tanky to kill with archers, and players have no boats of their own. So the solution is to just add counterplay: The lowered combat strength lets archers do significant damage to them (and makes them less deadly to embarked units). Allowing players to build them---and at an early tech---gives players a more proactive way to hunt them down. The early tech also doesn't prevent barbarians from spawning them. Also less move so they are not as good at running away at low health, and not dramatically better at exploring than an embarked scout.
---
VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 3
Discussion Thread: (2-03) Proposal: Transfer Polynesia's ability to build fishing boats with melee naval units to Carthage.
Proposer: @Legen
Sponsor: @Legen
Proposal Details
Proposal:
The part "Melee Naval Units can construct Fishing Boats" from Polynesia's UA is moved to Carthage's UA.
Rationale:
The ability to improve sea resources with melee naval units had its share of frustrations for Polynesia and, formerly, Japan. At first, you want to use its potential to save gold/production from your cities from not needing to spend on fishing boats. The main issue is that the earliest melee naval unit is unlocked at Sailing, one tech column later than fishing boats. By the time your first trireme is built, you should already have built some fishing boats and improved the sea resources within your borders, leaving that ability for niche situations instead.
Carthage addresses this issue cleanly by having a UU trireme that unlocks earlier at Fishing, the same tech in which you unlock fishing boats. This civ can then benefit immediately, making it the most sensible civ to have this ability.
VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 3a
Discussion Thread: (2-03a) Counterproposal: Let Polynesian Embarked Melee units build water improvements at Fishing
Proposer: @Rekk
Sponsor: @Rekk
Proposal Details
Polynesian ships come out relatively late for them to be able to improve sea resources, so why don't we give embarked (land) melee units the ability to do so at Fishing instead (as Japanese Samurai used to do in BNW)?
There's no need for Carthage to steal this ability with no replacement to Polynesia, when Carthage is already quite strong.
Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" for every proposal you'd be okay with if it were implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if these proposals weren't implemented. You can vote for any number of options.
The votes for 2-13 and 2-03 are SEPARATE; they are simply being conducted here because they are linked.
All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.
VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 13
Discussion Thread: (2-13) Proposal: Early Naval Unit rework
Proposer: @balparmak
Sponsor: @pineappledan
Proposal Details
Proposed Changes:
- Add a Galley melee boat at Fishing, move the trireme back to Philosophy.
- Carthage UU changed to Bireme (Galley replacement).
- Dromon renamed to Penteconter, retains the same model but uses arrows instead of flames in attacking.
- Barbarians cannot spawn Galleys until 80% of civs have researched Fishing
- Barbarian Galleys have same stats as player Galleys
Galley
Available at Fishing
70
3
12
Bireme (Carthage Galley replacement)
Available at Fishing
70
3
14
Heavy Assault
Pincer
Trireme
Available at Philosophy
120
4
18
VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 13a
Discussion Thread: (2-13a) Counterproposal: Early Naval Unit rework
Proposer: @pineappledan
Sponsor: @pineappledan
Proposal Details
A Response and re-submission of this proposal
Proposed Change:
Add a Galley melee boat at Fishing, move the trireme back to Philosophy, and cosmetic changes to the Dromon.
Spoiler details :
Reasoning:
- Galley/Trireme split:
- The trireme currently comes just slightly too late, and it's a bit strange that units can embark before there is a proper boat to defend them.
- Closes the gap between trireme and Caravel, in which time triremes become desperately obsolete vs ranged attacks and city defenses.
- Regularizes the naval melee line, giving a 2 tech gap so the naval game can "keep up" relative to land combat, without awkward lags and spikes. This spacing also doubles the number of units that unlock in late classical(!), which I find can get pretty stale without any new toys.
- Quinquereme
- This resolves some strangeness with some civs with their interactions with the melee unit line:
- Polynesia has an ability that lets them build fishing boats with melee ships, but melee ships currently unlock 1 tech after fishing. In fact, there is another proposal to address this specific issue right now.
- Carthage has an early trireme UU, which makes it anachronistic in ancient era, and it unlocks an entire unit domain before any other civ even can field units that can occupy the same tile type. The UU is doubling as a naval conquest unit and early scout, conflating Hanno's voyage 100 years before the invention of the Quinquereme, with it's use in the Punic wars.
- This also restores Carthage's incentive to go for the Sailing tech. Their UA currently takes the lighthouse off this tech, and the UU moves the unit unlock off this tech, leaving the tech barren, with only a wonder and a trade slot
- This resolves some strangeness with some civs with their interactions with the melee unit line:
- Dromon/Liburna
- The liburna is an antecedent ship design to the later Dromon first employed by Dalmation pirates in the early classical era. The design de-emphasized ramming, with a greater emphasis on speed. The Dromon's creation was iterative on the Liburna, so the existing unit model is a passable representation of both.
- Dromon's have a strong association with Rome and Byzantium, and with the deployment of Greek Fire. This is hyper-specific to a Mediterranean context. While a Liburna is still a mediterranean ship, it's more general in design and usage than napalm-spitting Byzantine dromons.
- Barbarian Galleys have same stats as player Galleys
VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 13b
Discussion Thread: (2-13b) Counterproposal: Remove Barbarian Galley
Proposer: @Stalker0
Sponsor: @Recursive
Proposal Details
Proposal: Remove the barbarian galley from the game. The first barbarian naval unit will be the Trireme when it comes online.
Rationale: Currently Barbarians can get naval units earlier than major civs can, making them nigh unbeatable. either the player should have ships to beat them (which is the original proposal) or the barb ships should be removed (this proposal).
VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 13c
Discussion Thread: (2-13c) Counterproposal: Give players Galleys and make them weaker
Proposer: @rkkn
Sponsor: @rkkn
Proposal Details
Galley unlocked at Pottery for players
55
, 3 , 9 Barbarian Galley: same stats, except 8
This is a simpler proposal with no changes to Triremes.
The problem being addressed here is that barbarians can swarm early cities with galleys or keep players from exploring islands. I think removing galleys entirely is far too heavy-handed. The problem is simply that players can't really do anything about them. They are too tanky to kill with archers, and players have no boats of their own. So the solution is to just add counterplay: The lowered combat strength lets archers do significant damage to them (and makes them less deadly to embarked units). Allowing players to build them---and at an early tech---gives players a more proactive way to hunt them down. The early tech also doesn't prevent barbarians from spawning them. Also less move so they are not as good at running away at low health, and not dramatically better at exploring than an embarked scout.
---
VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 3
Discussion Thread: (2-03) Proposal: Transfer Polynesia's ability to build fishing boats with melee naval units to Carthage.
Proposer: @Legen
Sponsor: @Legen
Proposal Details
Proposal:
The part "Melee Naval Units can construct Fishing Boats" from Polynesia's UA is moved to Carthage's UA.
Rationale:
The ability to improve sea resources with melee naval units had its share of frustrations for Polynesia and, formerly, Japan. At first, you want to use its potential to save gold/production from your cities from not needing to spend on fishing boats. The main issue is that the earliest melee naval unit is unlocked at Sailing, one tech column later than fishing boats. By the time your first trireme is built, you should already have built some fishing boats and improved the sea resources within your borders, leaving that ability for niche situations instead.
Carthage addresses this issue cleanly by having a UU trireme that unlocks earlier at Fishing, the same tech in which you unlock fishing boats. This civ can then benefit immediately, making it the most sensible civ to have this ability.
VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 3a
Discussion Thread: (2-03a) Counterproposal: Let Polynesian Embarked Melee units build water improvements at Fishing
Proposer: @Rekk
Sponsor: @Rekk
Proposal Details
Polynesian ships come out relatively late for them to be able to improve sea resources, so why don't we give embarked (land) melee units the ability to do so at Fishing instead (as Japanese Samurai used to do in BNW)?
There's no need for Carthage to steal this ability with no replacement to Polynesia, when Carthage is already quite strong.
Last edited:
