My Argument for FIN as Top Tier Trait

blitzkrieg1980 said:

Of course you can force the point as you can force any strategy with the right circumstances, diplo luck, and a pretty badass start. Notice how you have almost no production in your entire empire. Given that you've basically cottaged everything, you also have inefficient setup for whipping. Not sure what victory you're going for here, but it looks like culture? UN? Religious? You'd be hard pressed to get a sufficient military up and running with no production to challenge high level AI. With the teams there, though, maybe you don't need a military? I'd say this isn't really a convincing screenshot given no production and some uncommonly great land (you think you have enough duplicate resources to sell back to AI? )

We weren't discussing courthouses for their maintenance bonus. We were discussing courthouses for their 2 and access to spy. Build wealth is almost always better than courthouses in the early game. With respect to maintenance, courthouses are only needed once you breakout and start getting a lot of cities & distance. But if you look at the screenshot, there is no city building wealth and 10 turn Longbowmen (4 in the bureau capital!). A serious lack of production there so building wealth would do almost nothing for you.

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Uncommonly good start? How is 1 Gold (I don't count the other because I settled on it) and 2 sources of Food an uncommonly good start? This is Inland Sea, not the most common mapscript, but I know that Pangaea also has enough 1 Gold 2 Food Plains-Hill starts, it even got a lot better starts, like 3 times Food + Plains-Hill + 1 Commerce-resource.

Also it doesn't matter. 90% of the Commerce comes from financial Cottages (which btw. is the name of the thread and the topic we are discussing) .

And I got no production? I got 8 cities + have you seen the city-sizes? I could simply whip out 30+ units at any size, the point is I don't want to. It's far easier to have the AIs stay at war when one can bribe them because one has good Research / Espionage, and then backstab them later, when they're weakened and when units are better.

Really, no offense taken, but what I wanted to show was something like drewisfat wrote: Cities matter, GNP matters on Deity, so Financial, Philosphical (because GP are basically GNP) , and most of all Food. One can have CoL without problems at 1000 BC, that's also the time when one could even care about building Zigurats, because before that, Workers and Settlers are what counts, so it doesn't play any role that Zigurats come with Priesthood because at that time, one builds Granaries, Workers and Settlers, nothing else.
Also financial makes a huge difference, it helps staying competetive in tech which again helps with bribing the AIs so that they expand slower so that 8 cities and a setup like that are even possible. Really, Gilgamesh is no bad leader, but he is it because of Vultures, but all of the FIN leaders are basically great leaders, not every CRE or PRO leader is great though.
Castles are a complete waste of time as long as one can make diplomacy work, and diplomacy comes via GNP and Religion. Now one cannot control Religion, but one can control GNP, and FIN is the biggest boost to GNP together with PHI.

And drewis, don't tell me that this isn't important for really any game. Cities count, population counts, GNP counts, production is secondary on Deity and Courthouses or even Castles are a waste of time unless for the exploitation mechanics that Doshin talks of or when one has Corporations.

You may have chosen to settle on the gold but that doesn't change the fact that it was there. Regardless, when I said the start was good, it was for the surrounding land which had a ton of duplicate resources and just plain good land that could have been used in just about any way you could think of. With that many dupe resources you don't even need fail gold to keep you at 100% indefinitely.

I've seen dozens of deity playthroughs with top level players and they rarely cottage that much. In fact, this very thread was started by me because I was tired of seeing the higher level players degrading FIN. So will you deity players get your stories straight?!?! Lol

Well just because you settled on the gold doesn't invalidate it.

A 2 gold and 2 food riverside start is always 'good'.

blitzkrieg1980 said:

I've seen dozens of deity playthroughs with top level players and they rarely cottage that much. In fact, this very thread was started by me because I was tired of seeing the higher level players degrading FIN. So will you deity players get your stories straight?!?! Lol

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These are not normal starts or games..
HoF with chosen AIs and everything will always be different.
Sera likes mixing them into standard game discussions, for whatever reason.

What would people consider the basis for the discussion of a "normal" game? I play boreal maps often so I consider 3-4 deer in the capital with a ton of forests to be normal. I'm going to assume that when many speak of normal games they're refering to pangaea maps. So what would a normal game there look like?

Map type has nothing to do with it. The problem is that Hall of Fame starts are usually much better than normal starts and the AI leaders are selected (not random). Having a bunch of food in a start isn't necessarily not normal. What's not normal is having multiple gold, multiple food resources, all surrounding land filled with duplicate resources, and generally amicable AI. When I said "normal start" I really just meant not manipulated in any way. Random start no adding resources or choosing rival leaders. Perhaps a better term would have been "average, non-manipulated start".

blitzkrieg1980 said:

I've seen dozens of deity playthroughs with top level players and they rarely cottage that much. In fact, this very thread was started by me because I was tired of seeing the higher level players degrading FIN. So will you deity players get your stories straight?!?! Lol

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Just to answer this . I said:

Doshin said:

So, again for me:

1. Philosophical/Industrious
2. Expansive/Charismatic
3. Financial/Creative
4. Spiritual
5. Organized
6. Imperialistic
7. Aggressive/Protective

Financial up 1 in easier games with long rivers, and pre-planned Space attempts.

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Now compare the rivers and situation in:

Seraiel said:

450 / turn at 1 AD was Kaitzilla , this is my best:

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When I say "Financial up 1 in... pre-planned Space attempts," a pre-planned Culture game could be included. Both types of games depend upon generating more than is usual, whereas in most games are the limiting factor, and not . Farmed cities outside the capital that enable bulbs and breakouts (whipping siege/mounted) tend to be popular for this reason.

As soon as the AI is unable to keep up with the human in tech, then Cottages become far stronger than specialists in any city that is not going to generate a great person. A Hamlet offers 2C, so working three non-riverside Hamlets supplies 6 , and working two Farms and running one Representation Scientist supplies 6 . These are basically equal, assuming that you have the Mids. But working three riverside Hamlets supplies 9 , whereas two riverside Farms + one Scientist supplies 2 6 . So there is already a very small advantage to the Cottage route. Then factor in that these tiles get better: three non-riverside Villages offer 9C, Towns 12C, Printing Press improves both (15C for 3 non-riverside Towns), Golden Age boost them further (18C now) and the Financial trait still further (21C). Great person generating should then be concentrated in a few food heavy, often coastal, cities.

But if you are behind in tech, as is standard in difficult Deity games, or if you need to generate hammers to start and maintain a war, then Farms and bulbing prove stronger/more flexible.

Immortal and below I vote FIN as #1 w/out question. Deity I vote IND with FIN and PHI in a close 2nd.

Fin is a pretty good trait but when a empire begins depending on production more and workshops, fin no longer becomes that useful anymore like it used to when that civilization used to use cottages, towns and villages. Empires running workshops with larger production can often make larger stacks than empires that have cottages, towns and villages that make a lot of gold per turn.

Fin is a pretty good trait but when a empire begins depending on production more and workshops, fin no longer becomes that useful

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There's no reason FIN can't do the same and in most cases I'd argue they'll do it quicker due to that early snow ball tech lead. Just use FIN in conjunction with GP and in route to your War tech you make the decision to mass whip or mass upgrade. New cities can easily prioritize hammers or whip (or a combination). Throw in The Kremlin and you can exploit cheap Rush buy (Original cities) in conjunction with mass whipping (later cities and captured). Double whammy so to speak.

So set up your initial empire slightly biased towards cottages, transition, And keep what you've got to your advantage.

^^Right.. you can use fin early to get that early tech lead, make a bunch of workers to finally convert all of your cottages into workshops for production to make stacks quick. Adopting caste system, research metal casting and eventually guilds can all lead to workshop production that gets the large stacks built up quick.

^^Right.. you can use fin early to get that early tech lead, make a bunch of workers to finally convert all of your cottages into workshops for production to make stacks quick. Adopting caste system, research metal casting and eventually guilds can all lead to workshop production that gets the large stacks built up quick.

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This is a TROLL right? If not I'm EXTREMELY confused.

cseanny said:

This is a TROLL right?

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Nope...I'm pretty sure red's skill level is on the low end. No offense, red, but just stating fact from observing your posts for a long time.

I'm might bulldoze cottages on the tail end of Space game for space parts production, but I'm not going to make a concerted effort to change cottages to workshops mid-game, except maybe in capture AI cities if I want the city to be something else. If you have cottages rocking early in cities it means you want those cottages for a long time and it serves that cites purpose. I plan for workshops in cities where workshops are suitable.

I don't think anyone can argue that FIN is not a good trait. When you have the trait you make use of it. I definitely agree that is value increases as difficulty drops.

Some more elaboration from me, at least in my terms of "why" I'm confused in regards to Reds post.

^^Right.. you can use fin early to get that early tech lead

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In most cases, Yes.

make a bunch of workers to finally convert all of your cottages into workshops for production to make stacks quick.

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Part of my confusion is from this last quote. In my post above I say this:

"So set up your initial empire slightly biased towards cottages, transition, And keep what you've got to your advantage."

Never, ever, anywhere did I say or even hint at converting cottages to workshops.

Adopting caste system, research metal casting and eventually guilds can all lead to workshop production that gets the large stacks built up quick.

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Where to start? Well, it would take many many many more workers (compared to FIN and a few more cottages) to make enough farms and workshops to accomplish this because those improvements take much longer to finish.

Also, AIs research the bottom part of the tech tree anyways so I'd prefer to stick towards LIB and ideally towards Cuirs (if possible). Meaning? I'll be heading up towards Aesthetics towards Music and then onto CS and then Philo, Nat, pap, edu, compass, Lib (NAT), and GP. I'll trade for Mc, CoL, Machinery, Eng, and Guilds.

So you and I are talking about a much different transition time. I'll either be upgrading mass units (few cities no land) or mass whipping (more cities). So my transition to WS will be much later, as I near Communism. Cause after GP I'm picking up PP, Chemistry, SM, and then Communism.

I won't be building mass workers because I'll have captured mass workers.......and then transition, at least for Conquest or Domination. Space/culture is different story.

Well, it's an old discussion but..
Fin is good, but more than all other traits probably requires that you look at total gains when you look at competitive Civ.

It's easy to forget that new river cottages or so are not gaining 2c from Fin, but 1c.
Why? Mind tricks, you make 3c out of 1c tiles and so you think (i know i did..) yay what a nice new tile. But this would be 2c without Fin, still nice? Sure, if you should use that tile now. So Fin does not really matter for this decision.
Same goes for cities with no river.

What matters..what do we really gain in total.
10c more with Fin early? 20? That's many of those tiles used already.
I learned that Fin is usually not top when i started thinking about..let's say Great Peoples from Phi, an additional bulb for 1.7k beakers. Or maybe a merchant for 1.3k gold? How many rounds of Fin commerce will that equal.
And there you are, light bulb above your head..there can be better things than Fin

I think Fin really shines on big maps, where you're not building just cottages in your capital, but 50+ cottages over the map. But in general I don't play those maps, and I build far fewer cottages than the normal player.

To add to what Fippy said, seeing 1c going to 3c makes you much more inclined to build those cottages. Which is another FIN trap. Say you have 20 cottages, so you might think +20 commerce plus bonuses. But it's important to know that cottages have an opportunity cost, and if you would have otherwise built 10 cottages on that same map, then FIN really got you the 20 commerce minus whatever you passed up to build those extra cottages.

Also FIN is a real obvious benefit, and that's why it's overrated. You can clearly see yourself making an extra 20 commerce (or w.e) that you wouldn't otherwise have. But that's not out of the ballpark of what other traits give you, in much more subtle ways. Take CRE for example, imo the most underrated trait. It gives you extra tiles you wouldn't otherwise have, but how many extra may be hard to judge.
- What if CRE blocks off an AI from settling an extra city?
- CRE can often be the difference maker for getting a couple fringe luxury resources. Say it gets you two dyes in the jungle you otherwise wouldn't have settled close enough to secure. That's HUGE. That's two resources you can sell for GPT to the AI. That's worth like half of the total FIN bonus.
- Don't have to build monuments, saves hammers.
- Don't have to early research mysticism.
- Cheaper libraries, saves hammers, and earlier libraries gives extra commerce.
- Faster border pops mean you can build cities more optimally instead of requiring food to be in the first ring. + faster border pops means you get cities running and working good tiles sooner than building/chopping a monument and waiting 10 turns.
- Then of course, you can work extra tiles and gain hammer/commerce/food from there.

cseanny said:

Some more elaboration from me, at least in my terms of "why" I'm confused in regards to Reds post.

In most cases, Yes.

Part of my confusion is from this last quote. In my post above I say this:

"So set up your initial empire slightly biased towards cottages, transition, And keep what you've got to your advantage."

Never, ever, anywhere did I say or even hint at converting cottages to workshops.



Where to start? Well, it would take many many many more workers (compared to FIN and a few more cottages) to make enough farms and workshops to accomplish this because those improvements take much longer to finish.

Also, AIs research the bottom part of the tech tree anyways so I'd prefer to stick towards LIB and ideally towards Cuirs (if possible). Meaning? I'll be heading up towards Aesthetics towards Music and then onto CS and then Philo, Nat, pap, edu, compass, Lib (NAT), and GP. I'll trade for Mc, CoL, Machinery, Eng, and Guilds.

So you and I are talking about a much different transition time. I'll either be upgrading mass units (few cities no land) or mass whipping (more cities). So my transition to WS will be much later, as I near Communism. Cause after GP I'm picking up PP, Chemistry, SM, and then Communism.

I won't be building mass workers because I'll have captured mass workers.......and then transition, at least for Conquest or Domination. Space/culture is different story.

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Ok.. the conversion strategy usually works on the lower difficulty levels when you want to get a quick domination victory. I have failed this strategy before and I have gotten it to work sometimes. AIs often have large cities with large towns around them and often build science buildings such as libraries, universities, i.e. which can increase your science output if you captured these cities. Scientist specialist in your cities also can increase your tech. Financial can be good this way because the AI has the habit of making large cities that are capturable with many towns nearby, increasing your science with a fin trait.

Ok.. the conversion strategy usually works on the lower difficulty levels

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Fair enough . But even on lower levels mass whipping will net your more stuff right away in most, if not all cases. And what Lower level are we talking about? I'm talking about Immortal/Deity myself. Although to be fair, I know I've posted several Deity games where I'm doing the opposite of this discussion........but those are not the norms.

reddishrecue said:

AIs often have large cities with large towns around them and often build science buildings such as libraries, universities, i.e. which can increase your science output if you captured these cities.

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While the portion of this up to "i.e." is true, libraries and universities are culture buildings and automatically destroyed upon capture. Libraries are relatively cheap and easy to build in the captured cities, but universities are much more expensive.

I've had an itch to play a lot of Fin games the last couple of weeks. Been mainly playing a lot of Pacal and Mansa Musa games. It is very nice with cottages everywhere for sure.

I like the following Fin leaders the most:

Hannibal - Fin + Cha means working up to two extra cottages per city from the start of the game, and on coastal maps cothons are amazing.

Pacal - Gets a similar bonus to Hannibal but needs to build ball courts first. However combined with EXP means working more tiles as cities grow due to being able to support a higher population.

Mansa Musa - great UU and a synergistic UB for Fin. Forges are great, plus an extra 10% gold for your cottages cites is nice. Spi can be a great trait, but I rarely civic swap so I don't really like it. I prefer unrestricted leaders and HC of Mali.