Fippy
Mycro Junkie
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My Argument for FIN as Top Tier Trait
- Thread starter blitzkrieg1980
- Start date
Protective can help a lot for EE, and particularly with Gilgamesh it can be leveraged to a top tier status.
- Use cre libraries to spawn two GSs
- Beeline Priesthood for ziggurats and oracle
- Oracle MC, bulb machinery / engi.
With all that you - 50% cheaper libs, early cheaper Ziggurats, Pro Xbows, Pro Castles, Trebs.
The speediest EE, Xbow and Treb rush, Ziggurats and if you want Vultures ... Everytime I play as any other Civ now I'm always thinking 'Why aren't I playing Giggles?'.
Hes my no.1.
- Use cre libraries to spawn two GSs
- Beeline Priesthood for ziggurats and oracle
- Oracle MC, bulb machinery / engi.
With all that you - 50% cheaper libs, early cheaper Ziggurats, Pro Xbows, Pro Castles, Trebs.
The speediest EE, Xbow and Treb rush, Ziggurats and if you want Vultures ... Everytime I play as any other Civ now I'm always thinking 'Why aren't I playing Giggles?'.
Hes my no.1.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
That's one of the most fun strategies to play. I want to start as Giggles tonight! The early ziggurats make for fast EP and free techs (thanks Mansa)
I've played giggles and sury a lot, and while sury has great traits and UB, I still always come out ahead with giggles because getting those zigs and castles up, and not needing CoL is such a huge benefit.
Also if you get stone and also manage to build the mids, lol OP spy specialists.
You don't need great wall, as it will make it harder to get GSs. The oracle city just doesn't work specialists until 2 GSs, or 1 and 1 GE if you build mids are acquired, then you should be able to spawn great spies later on.
Also if you get stone and also manage to build the mids, lol OP spy specialists.
You don't need great wall, as it will make it harder to get GSs. The oracle city just doesn't work specialists until 2 GSs, or 1 and 1 GE if you build mids are acquired, then you should be able to spawn great spies later on.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
Yeah I had a GSpy game with Isabella once and used mids with spies. It was pretty badass. I might WB in stone with giggles tonight just for fun
I've only used it on Immortal. I cant do as good with any other leader. I put all my EPs towards the non neighboring tech leader, and ziggurat and castle spam with a representation spy specialist in captured cities to both aleviate the economic burden and make more EP points.
I just had to cheat in a stone to also get the mids though.
If you don't have iron, hopefully you have copper for vultures & spears. If no metal QQ fail.
Top tier Pro leader for me.
I just had to cheat in a stone to also get the mids though.
If you don't have iron, hopefully you have copper for vultures & spears. If no metal QQ fail.
Top tier Pro leader for me.
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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Tech-steals are also viable on Deity, very viable even, but it's far easier to generate the EP via the slider then build expensive Zigurats or even Courthouses. Also, at 120 BC, Deity-AI would laugh at a stack of that size and have Longbows. Great Wall for an early Great Spy is good, Mids are also good, but if expansion suffers too much through it like in this case with 3 cities, getting to 6 cities and going Elepult would be way better. Even in a blocked in scenario, Vultures would probably do the trick, they're cheap, have STR 6 and attack date would be very early, so Archers or Axes / Swords at maximum.
Generally I would consider Vulturepult a lot better than XBowtreb simply because of unit-costs and the earlier attack date.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
How are Zigurats expensive? They're 25% discounted courthouses and with a single 
invested, a 3 pop whip. 2
in each city and also a couple spy specialists is a pretty hefty amount of espionage that early in the game (considering you've beelined Priesthood). I would think the 90 is pretty cheap given the return as there wouldn't be much to build at that point anyway, no?
Also, why not go with a 5-6 city treb rush? I'd rather use trebs than cats and you're not guaranteed to have 'phants. Isn't iron more commonly available on most maps?
invested, a 3 pop whip. 2 in each city and also a couple spy specialists is a pretty hefty amount of espionage that early in the game (considering you've beelined Priesthood). I would think the 90 is pretty cheap given the return as there wouldn't be much to build at that point anyway, no?Also, why not go with a 5-6 city treb rush? I'd rather use trebs than cats and you're not guaranteed to have 'phants. Isn't iron more commonly available on most maps?
Catapults suck, and why bother with them when you can easily have trebs the following turn after researching construction?
Iron is much more common than copper I find. Usually if BW reveals no copper nearby, Iron almost always is.
Zigs + Pro castles is the cheapest Espionage Economy setup you can do, its very easy to whip them up in captured cities, they aren't expensive at all and you don't need anything else (maybe add the Cre library if you want, but just Zig + Castle > wealth during your early - midgame conquest push is solid enough, then use tech steals later on against your EP target).
Iron is much more common than copper I find. Usually if BW reveals no copper nearby, Iron almost always is.
Zigs + Pro castles is the cheapest Espionage Economy setup you can do, its very easy to whip them up in captured cities, they aren't expensive at all and you don't need anything else (maybe add the Cre library if you want, but just Zig + Castle > wealth during your early - midgame conquest push is solid enough, then use tech steals later on against your EP target).
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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I know that Zigs are cheaper then normal Courthouses, they're still expensive. Castles obsolete very fast but sometimes are good in the capital in espionage-victories where one doesn't research much further then CoL.
Still, the slider + Cottages is the more powerful way. How much can you put out via Zigurats? 6. That's 2 financial Cottages or 3 normal Cottages, but the Cottages grow, give 
and cost no apart from the Worker.
If you got Construction 1T before Engineering you imo made something wrong. One can have construction at 2000 BC, 1000 BC through trade, you're almost at 1 AD.
Scotland Yard, that's a good approach for an espionage Economy, therefor the GW and a Courthouse in the capital, but apart from that, run Slider, and if you already have a STR6 unit that comes with BW and can be promoted to CR, use it.
Btw.: With the setup described (GW + Courthouse for early Great Spy + Buro) , up to 450 / turn at 1 AD are possible.
Still, the slider + Cottages is the more powerful way. How much
can you put out via Zigurats? 6. That's 2 financial Cottages or 3 normal Cottages, but the Cottages grow, give and cost no apart from the Worker.If you got Construction 1T before Engineering you imo made something wrong. One can have construction at 2000 BC, 1000 BC through trade, you're almost at 1 AD.
Scotland Yard, that's a good approach for an espionage Economy, therefor the GW and a Courthouse in the capital, but apart from that, run Slider, and if you already have a STR6 unit that comes with BW and can be promoted to CR, use it.
Btw.: With the setup described (GW + Courthouse for early Great Spy + Buro) , up to 450
/ turn at 1 AD are possible.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
100% slider for EP is a waste IMO. Zigg + spy = 6 per city (with standard 6 cities you're getting a total of 40/turn before a GSpy which is a LOT that early in the game). And you're still able to do deep beelines for techs and impart SOME slider to espionage for backfill or steal a deep tech from another branch of the tech tree. Fast castles added in sound good, too, especially with stone. Also, you would have to run 100% slider the entire time to get the 6 from 2-3 riverside cottages and, although they grow, you won't be able to do your own deep beelines for techs.
Not sure where you're getting the 450/turn @ 1AD. Given 2 GSpies (1 settled, 1 scotland yard) you'd get 12 + 2 (courthouse/zigg)) + 4(palace)= 18 non-commerce . Where's the rest coming from? You would need 138 base commerce in your Bureau capital to get that. 138*1.5 = 207+18(non-commerce EP) = 225 * 2(scotland yard) = 450. And that would require a constant 100% slider. Sorry, but I would love to see even a deity player rocking 138 base 
in their capital at 1AD. It sounds like this would require all your cities to be cottage-spam and even then, I'm not seeing how you get to 450 at 1AD.
It sounds a lot more costly to go the slider route, IMO, since you have to devote your land to cottages (which can't be whipped into towns
). Meanwhile with the courthouse/Zigg/Castle/spy and the same 2 GSpies, you're getting 2(courthouse)+4(spy) = 6 * 1.25(castle)= 7 * 5 non-capital cities = 35. Now, the capital = 4(palace) + 6(court&spy) + 12(GSpy) = 22 *2.25(castle/Scotland) = 49. Total = 49 + 35 = 84 per turn without devoting a single to espionage. Add in a 10% slider, and you're at 100 per turn. That sounds pretty nice to me since I can basically tech at the normal pace and still steal techs every 8 turns or so. You can also devote your land to production instead of commerce and expect a couple more GSpies even before Democracy/Communism
per city (with standard 6 cities you're getting a total of 40/turn before a GSpy which is a LOT that early in the game). And you're still able to do deep beelines for techs and impart SOME slider to espionage for backfill or steal a deep tech from another branch of the tech tree. Fast castles added in sound good, too, especially with stone. Also, you would have to run 100% slider the entire time to get the 6 from 2-3 riverside cottages and, although they grow, you won't be able to do your own deep beelines for techs.Not sure where you're getting the 450
/turn @ 1AD. Given 2 GSpies (1 settled, 1 scotland yard) you'd get 12 + 2 (courthouse/zigg)) + 4(palace)= 18 non-commerce . Where's the rest coming from? You would need 138 base commerce in your Bureau capital to get that. 138*1.5 = 207+18(non-commerce EP) = 225 * 2(scotland yard) = 450. And that would require a constant 100% slider. Sorry, but I would love to see even a deity player rocking 138 base in their capital at 1AD. It sounds like this would require all your cities to be cottage-spam and even then, I'm not seeing how you get to 450 at 1AD.It sounds a lot more costly to go the slider route, IMO, since you have to devote your land to cottages (which can't be whipped into towns
). Meanwhile with the courthouse/Zigg/Castle/spy and the same 2 GSpies, you're getting 2(courthouse)+4(spy) = 6 * 1.25(castle)= 7 * 5 non-capital cities = 35. Now, the capital = 4(palace) + 6(court&spy) + 12(GSpy) = 22 *2.25(castle/Scotland) = 49. Total = 49 + 35 = 84 per turn without devoting a single to espionage. Add in a 10% slider, and you're at 100 per turn. That sounds pretty nice to me since I can basically tech at the normal pace and still steal techs every 8 turns or so. You can also devote your land to production instead of commerce and expect a couple more GSpies even before Democracy/CommunismCastles don't just add EP.
They also defend conquered cities with your xbows nicely, and add a trade route. They don't obsolete too fast if you delay the tech that obsoletes them, and with pro & stone plus engi bulb they are worth building and last a decent amount of time.
And in no way is 90 hammers expensive, that's a regular granary and a monument. Even normal courthouses are still worth building. Do you even whip bro?
They also defend conquered cities with your xbows nicely, and add a trade route. They don't obsolete too fast if you delay the tech that obsoletes them, and with pro & stone plus engi bulb they are worth building and last a decent amount of time.
And in no way is 90 hammers expensive, that's a regular granary and a monument. Even normal courthouses are still worth building. Do you even whip bro?
Haha, I think seraiel whips 
Seraiel just prefers wealth to courthouses; for 120 hammers you get 120 gold, which unless maxed cities is 30-40 turns of courthouse use, and is right now instead of later (assuming slow build courthouse). If you whip the courthouse, then are you whipping away commerce?
In the long run, better economically to go courthouses instead of wealth, but in the short run wealth is much better, and may save pop for whipping units. And if the loss in the short run isthe difference between being in the immediate tech race (ie being able to be in the running for tech trading RIGHT NOW), it may no longer be better long term. And seraiel sells techs to keep slider up, even without courthouses.
Most deity players say build wealth, and I struggle with deity and don't (building granary, courthouse, forge library in all cities, more or less, with some few monuments). Perhpas it is time to try no courthouse yes wealth.
Seraiel just prefers wealth to courthouses; for 120 hammers you get 120 gold, which unless maxed cities is 30-40 turns of courthouse use, and is right now instead of later (assuming slow build courthouse). If you whip the courthouse, then are you whipping away commerce? In the long run, better economically to go courthouses instead of wealth, but in the short run wealth is much better, and may save pop for whipping units. And if the loss in the short run isthe difference between being in the immediate tech race (ie being able to be in the running for tech trading RIGHT NOW), it may no longer be better long term. And seraiel sells techs to keep slider up, even without courthouses.
Most deity players say build wealth, and I struggle with deity and don't (building granary, courthouse, forge library in all cities, more or less, with some few monuments). Perhpas it is time to try no courthouse yes wealth.
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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Not sure where you're getting the 450
450
/ turn at 1 AD was Kaitzilla , this is my best:
Notices that these are non-chese screenshots.
It sounds a lot more costly to go the slider route, IMO, since you have to devote your land to cottages (which can't be whipped into towns
Yes, and without all that you get xxxx
from the infiltration mission of the 2nd Great Spy, and xx population that could work Cottages to generate xxx more .90
afaik are 30 more than a Granary, and a Granary doubles food, and one builds Monuments only to unlock further food.No matter ob Zigurats, Castles or Courthouses, they're both expensive, 3 pop could also also be 3 Cottages or any units that could conquer further cities to enhance commerce by even more.
Haha, I think seraiel whips
In the long run, better economically to go courthouses instead of wealth, but in the short run wealth is much better, and may save pop for whipping units. And if the loss in the short run isthe difference between being in the immediate tech race (ie being able to be in the running for tech trading RIGHT NOW), it may no longer be better long term. And seraiel sells techs to keep slider up, even without courthouses.
Most deity players say build wealth, and I struggle with deity and don't (building granary, courthouse, forge library in all cities, more or less, with some few monuments). Perhpas it is time to try no courthouse yes wealth.
I prefer Granaries (always) , sometimes Forges, sometimes Monuments, often Libraries, seldomly Barracks, but most of all Workers and Settlers and then either units or plain pop.
The game above is so good, because of FIN, 8 cities, (Currency) and the GW.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
Of course you can force the point as you can force any strategy with the right circumstances, diplo luck, and a pretty badass start. Notice how you have almost no production in your entire empire. Given that you've basically cottaged everything, you also have inefficient setup for whipping. Not sure what victory you're going for here, but it looks like culture? UN? Religious? You'd be hard pressed to get a sufficient military up and running with no production to challenge high level AI. With the teams there, though, maybe you don't need a military? I'd say this isn't really a convincing screenshot given no production and some uncommonly great land (you think you have enough duplicate resources to sell back to AI? )
Generally speaking, I want a good amount of production (or good setup for whipping) as I rarely play team games and can't count on a teammate to take care of military. You can do bhavv's strategy given almost any start and with almost any leader (though Gilgamesh is the best since you don't have to get CoL with Oracle).
and access to spy. Build wealth is almost always better than courthouses in the early game. With respect to maintenance, courthouses are only needed once you breakout and start getting a lot of cities & distance. But if you look at the screenshot, there is no city building wealth and 10 turn Longbowmen (4 in the bureau capital!). A serious lack of production there so building wealth would do almost nothing for you.
)Generally speaking, I want a good amount of production (or good setup for whipping) as I rarely play team games and can't count on a teammate to take care of military. You can do bhavv's strategy given almost any start and with almost any leader (though Gilgamesh is the best since you don't have to get CoL with Oracle).
We weren't discussing courthouses for their maintenance bonus. We were discussing courthouses for their 2traius said:
and access to spy. Build wealth is almost always better than courthouses in the early game. With respect to maintenance, courthouses are only needed once you breakout and start getting a lot of cities & distance. But if you look at the screenshot, there is no city building wealth and 10 turn Longbowmen (4 in the bureau capital!). A serious lack of production there so building wealth would do almost nothing for you.
drewisfat
King
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Where'd you get the idea that this is a team game? And what is a team game, idek.
Seraiel likes to exaggerate things -- or I should say he will state times / scores / GDP that are possible, by a HOF player in a HOF start
So he's rarely wrong, it's just not always relevant to normal players in normal games
Not sure what victory condition he's going for, but with 8 cities in that dominant a position I'm sure he could do anything. Probably trying to cheese esp culture or something. His lack of a production is only an issue if he wanted to DOW in the near future. He could just sail on his strong teching power and then convert empty tiles / a few villages to workshops. Dom is definitely, maybe even easily, doable from here.
The main point that I think he shows is giggle isn't the strongest for ESP -- and that passing up TGW (with stone too) is like saying you shouldn't bother improving your gold mine since you are FIN on a river.
Ziggurats coming at Priesthood just isn't a big deal.... because they're not a good building to build early, even if they're cheaper, even if you're going ESP. That early in the game it's more important to pump out workers / settlers to gain as much land as possible before the AI grabs it all. Also it's not like espionage matters until you can get alphabet / build a few spies -- and even then it's still a smart move to probably trade aesthetics around, rather than beelining alpha and tech stealing everything.
The great wall however will give you EP without slowing you down that much, since it saves hammers you would need on spawn busters anyways -- and gives you spy GP points without taking up a citizen.
Seraiel likes to exaggerate things -- or I should say he will state times / scores / GDP that are possible, by a HOF player in a HOF start
So he's rarely wrong, it's just not always relevant to normal players in normal games
Not sure what victory condition he's going for, but with 8 cities in that dominant a position I'm sure he could do anything. Probably trying to cheese esp culture or something. His lack of a production is only an issue if he wanted to DOW in the near future. He could just sail on his strong teching power and then convert empty tiles / a few villages to workshops. Dom is definitely, maybe even easily, doable from here.
The main point that I think he shows is giggle isn't the strongest for ESP -- and that passing up TGW (with stone too) is like saying you shouldn't bother improving your gold mine since you are FIN on a river.
Ziggurats coming at Priesthood just isn't a big deal.... because they're not a good building to build early, even if they're cheaper, even if you're going ESP. That early in the game it's more important to pump out workers / settlers to gain as much land as possible before the AI grabs it all. Also it's not like espionage matters until you can get alphabet / build a few spies -- and even then it's still a smart move to probably trade aesthetics around, rather than beelining alpha and tech stealing everything.
The great wall however will give you EP without slowing you down that much, since it saves hammers you would need on spawn busters anyways -- and gives you spy GP points without taking up a citizen.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
I'm not saying to skip the GW, either. In fact, I would rather go for GW for espionage but sometimes I can get both GW and 'Mids depending on situation.
I thought this was a team game b/c of a too-fast glance at the leader scores (I don't have the slash with the empire name in mine and only see the slash when playing team games). Team game is when you set up teams in the custom game screen. That's my bad, though, I didn't pay close enough attention to the scoreboard in her screenie. I'll amend my post.
At least I know I'm not going crazy regarding the start and the #s shown! I respect that these exaggerated situations are possible for HoF players in HoF starts, but I'm fairly sure we were debating normal games and normal situations.
I thought this was a team game b/c of a too-fast glance at the leader scores (I don't have the slash with the empire name in mine and only see the slash when playing team games). Team game is when you set up teams in the custom game screen. That's my bad, though, I didn't pay close enough attention to the scoreboard in her screenie. I'll amend my post.
At least I know I'm not going crazy regarding the start and the #s shown! I respect that these exaggerated situations are possible for HoF players in HoF starts, but I'm fairly sure we were debating normal games and normal situations.
Honestly, if you beeline Engineering aggressively on a Pangaea type map, you can stop researching. Trebuchets are enough to win the game on any difficulty, and building Castles is actively detrimental. Besides wasting , they will delay the production of units in any city from 2–4 turns (1 turn to invest hammers in a Castle, 1 turn to whip the Castle. In new cities, Walls are needed before building the Castle...). Building Castles before starting the first war will delay the final victory date anywhere between 2–5 turns, and building Castles in captured cities will increase this still further. And if you do want to research, tech brokering through vassals is very easy.
Castles have limited uses in AW games, but by far their best (only?) use is normal games comes with exploiting the AI's code, which causes them to bombard before attacking a city, in spite of overwhelmingly good odds (30 units versus 2 Longbows).
, they will delay the production of units in any city from 2–4 turns (1 turn to invest hammers in a Castle, 1 turn to whip the Castle. In new cities, Walls are needed before building the Castle...). Building Castles before starting the first war will delay the final victory date anywhere between 2–5 turns, and building Castles in captured cities will increase this still further. And if you do want to research, tech brokering through vassals is very easy.Castles have limited uses in AW games, but by far their best (only?) use is normal games comes with exploiting the AI's code, which causes them to bombard before attacking a city, in spite of overwhelmingly good odds (30 units versus 2 Longbows).
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