Exploration Continued Expanded (Obsolete)

SuperWaffle247 said:

Yeah, I need to get rid of Benin. I'll check versions and try it again. Thanks for your support!

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turingmachine said:

Since neither Mallku or Libyan Nomad are loading, then if those were the UUs of a mod civ then that would be the missing one causing the scroll issue. You said you were using an outdated version of Garamantes (Libyan Nomad), so presumably updating helped that. Which civ has Mallku as a unit?

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Mallku is Leugi's Aymara settler replacement. Try not using the Garamantes and the Aymara and see if that helps.

Updated log with no Garamantes, Aymara, or SFR Yugoslavia. Still no scrolling...

I gotta call it a night, I think my hard drive is getting mad at me. I can continue to diagnose the issue later on. I'm also thinking I should do a full wipe and reinstall of my Civ 5, just to clear out some old mods anyway. Direct downloads only, this time.

Once again, thanks for y'all's help. Hopefully this can get resolved!

Well I'd see how this plays now with all of my mods enabled, but if this already isn't working with Australia or the Polynesia pack, no sense in doing that until a patch is out.

OK, so I did my experimentating anyway. The culprits are, independently, Aymara, Goths, and Garamantes. Without those everything is fine, scrolling wise. Hope that helps!!

I will check them out now. Thanks.

Ok, that's weird - I did some testing with enabling/disabling mods, specifically to see which one was disabling the Cree's UU. I chose the Cree for no reason in particular, I just remembered they were one of the civs to have a UU removed in my setup.

The culprit seems to be Tomatekh's Historical Religions Complete. Not sure how that happens... Some SQL conflict that mangles part of the civ's definitions? In any case, I'm going to test some more.

Bear with me; I believe I've found the culprit.

Natan, what were you doing inside of the files?

ExCE updated:

• Fixed issue where Barbarians and other civs were starting with a Great Scout (Great Scouts consequentially unlocked at Trapping)
• Fixed a serious conflict with custom civ mods, down to bad copy-pasting on my part (hopefully)
• Added Attrition:

Attrition

• Adds various, detrimental effects to certain Terrains and Features, when outside your borders (optional):
  • Jungle: Units may not enter Jungle until you research Optics.
  • Thick Forest (Forest with adjacent adjacent Forest or Jungle) and Jungle: Units may be instantly disbanded as they move through Jungle or Thick Forest; reduce this chance by following Coasts and Rivers, or by entering into Tribe tiles.
  • Disease: Units ending their turn in Marsh, Flood Plains, or Jungle have a 30% chance to become diseased, lowering their combat strength and causing them to take 2 damage each turn until they return to friendly borders (including the borders of an allied City-State). Units that have been cured of being diseased gain an immunity to disease.
  • Scurvy: Naval Units have a 50% chance to take 15 damage in Coast or Ocean. 5% chance that Naval Units will instantly disband in Ocean.
  • Desert: Units take 5 damage every turn and cannot heal in Desert. Take reprieve in Flood Plains, Oases, next to Rivers, or with Tribes. Desert costs 2 moves instead of 1.
  • Snow: Each turn, 50% chance Units take 10 damage in Snow. Units cannot heal in Snow. Take reprieve with Tribes. Snow costs 2 moves instead of 1.
  • Units trained in a city on or adjacent to Desert, Snow, or Jungle begin with a natural immunity to the attrition effects of those terrains.
  • Recon Units may be upgraded with immunities to Snow, Desert, Jungle, and Disease. All units gain these immunities at certain technologies (Ecology: Desert and Snow, Biology: Scurvy, Penicillin: Disease, Satellites: Jungle)
  • Immunities to Desert and Snow give double movement in those terrains. Immunity to Disease heals +5 HP per turn.
  • Attrition does not affect Cargo Ships and Caravans, or certain late-game units
• Woodsman promotion grants immunity to Jungle, Berber Cavalry gains Desert Immunity, Norwegian Ski Infantry and Carolean gains Snow Immunity, Nau gains Scurvy Immunity, Conquistador gains full immunity (optional)
• Polynesian units begin with Scurvy Immunity (optional)
• Navigation School grants Scurvy Immunity to Great Admirals (optional)

Polynesia seems to be fine now; for me at least. Australia IDK - the civilopedia is all messed up, but I disabled ExCE and that continued.
Conflict with the Garamantes/Aymara/Goths (and probably others; maybe Polynesia) resolved.

As for Attrition, this is the one component that will probably need the most tweaking of numbers to get right. So please let me know your experiences, and whether you think chances/damages are too high/low. The function of Scurvy and Jungle is to slow down exploration early-game; the function of Snow and Desert and Disease is to enhance strategem when fighting or exploring those terrains, so keep this in mind when assessing these things.

This definitely shakes things up, more than the other excellent mods like ED, CulDiv, and PP. This completely changes how to approach the game, instead of having nice and shiny new toys on top of it.

Now you're going to have me looking through every unique unit and seeing if immunities are appropriate for them. Actually, I won't do that unless I know how to add those traits to them.

Too bad I'm going to circumvent the biggest looking exploration inhibitor (scurvy) since my started game before this hit was Tonga But the damage and percentage together seem rather crippling for naval exploration early on, especially if barbarians are factored in. Unless they get scurvy, too.

Yay, attririon. Oh "a few civs" next
Okay I'm curious if my scout upgraded to bowman via Ancient Ruin, can it be upgraded to Great Scout? Probably no. So annoying when you need only few XP to upgrade it to Great Scout.

pyroflare77 said:

This definitely shakes things up, more than the other excellent mods like ED, CulDiv, and PP. This completely changes how to approach the game, instead of having nice and shiny new toys on top of it.

Now you're going to have me looking through every unique unit and seeing if immunities are appropriate for them. Actually, I won't do that unless I know how to add those traits to them.

Too bad I'm going to circumvent the biggest looking exploration inhibitor (scurvy) since my started game before this hit was Tonga But the damage and percentage together seem rather crippling for naval exploration early on, especially if barbarians are factored in. Unless they get scurvy, too.

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Should be crippling Ancient and Classical, but as you get faster ships, it shouldn't be so bad. However, once Trade is implemented, Citrus will make immunity more attainable.

It's easy enough to add immunities to uniques; if there's a vanilla one, let me know and I'll include it. A number of unique units from Tomatekh's and my civs have added support as well.

Fedatur said:

Yay, attririon. Oh "a few civs" next
Okay I'm curious if my scout upgraded to bowman via Ancient Ruin, can it be upgraded to Great Scout? Probably no. So annoying when you need only few XP to upgrade it to Great Scout.

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No, they can't. Not much can be done about that.

Civs need maintenance, and it'll give a chance to catch balances and bugs for Attrition.

That is a good point. Most of my naval exploration is done in ancient and classical in the first place, barring a continents map. Though crossing an ocean on a continents map sounds rather difficult with the movement penalties on ocean.

And just to see if there are any immediate issues, I went ahead and queued up all of my mods. Civ select screen is fine. The game didn't explode either when I started up a game. I manage to tear myself away after a few turns, but everything appears to be functioning properly (even Australia's civilopedia is fine on my end).

JFD said:

No, they can't. Not much can be done about that.

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Not saying its bad, saying its realistic. And annoying

JFD said:

Civs need maintenance, and it'll give a chance to catch balances and bugs for Attrition.

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I'm just too hyped for future updates to think rationally.

Looks fantastic, can't wait to play with Attrition. This really changes things this time.

But just from reading that list I have a few concerns.

JFD said:

[*]Thick Forest (Forest with adjacent adjacent Forest or Jungle) and Jungle: Units may be instantly disbanded as they move through Jungle or Thick Forest; reduce this chance by following Coasts and Rivers, or by entering into Tribe tiles.

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This should be disabled as technology progresses. I can't imagine a 19th century army of 100.000 men getting lost in a forest. They would take some attrition and would pay more movement points, but not be disbanded. Of course I understand that this encourages avoding dense forests, and using them as natural walls - but there should be a limit to that. No complaints about Jungle.


What about Workers? Let's say I have a forest, where I built a lumber mill, and want to build another lumber mill in the thick forest. Would the worker be disbanded then?

JFD said:

[*]Scurvy: Naval Units have a 50% chance to take 15 damage in Coast or Ocean. 5% chance that Naval Units will instantly disband in Ocean. Ocean costs 2 moves instead of 1.

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Greater Ocean movement cost doesn't make sense for post-Medieval naval units. You wait half a game for a Caravel (which was nerfed from 5 to 4 moves with some patch anyway), only to move it like a land unit? This would be disappointing Also frigates, ships of the line, and modern ships shouldn't be affected by that that much - seamanship and propulsion methods were already perfected. I see that Biology grants immunity to Scurvy to all units (and thus doubles ocean movement, seemingly returning it to normal then), but this is too late in historical context, where ocean travel wasn't impeded after the 1550's, and mostly disease counted as a threat.

That said, I'd rather rely on Scurvy as a factor limiting naval exploration more than the movement cost. I wanted to say that 15 HP hit as too big, but since I think dropping the movement penalty in Ocean would make it rather balanced.



I love all the remaining changes.

I seem to be getting weird CTDs after a set amount of turns in the game when using the latest version of the mod. They don't seem to be in response to anything, just between turns. Here are my logs, apologies for reporting so many issues - it must be somewhat irritating.

In terms of attrition - as far as I can tell the balance seems fine. One thing that I did have an issue with is that Barb encampments could spawn in Jungle tiles before I could move into them. It made them impossible to clear - however dealing with the units was no big issue. I'm not really sure how this could be adjusted.

Can confirm sometimes game crashes.

Try this update; see if it resolves the ctds.

@TranquilSilence Database log is for when you load the mods, Lua log is for in-game. However, lua logs rarely report anything useful about a crash, so it's just blind luck finding a solution.

@Fedatur To fix the issue with barbarians and civs starting with Great Scouts, they need to require some technology, and Trapping seemed the most fitting.

@Janboruta Have removed the ocean movement penalty in the update above, but I am concerned this will both devalue the worth of scurvy immunity and decrease the impact of scurvy upon exploration. As for Forests, by the time you get a 19th century army in-game, you should cover enough land with your borders, or with roads (both of which make you immune to the attrition), that those scarce patches of thick forest deserve to suck them into oblivion. And as you cannot build a Lumber Mill outside your borders, a Worker would have no problems building them in thick forest. As in the change list: "when outside your borders."

Thanks, will try the update now.

It seems that even though Barbarians do not start with great scouts, they still can spawn them and utilise them. I'm not sure if this is the case with the update linked above however.

I think you can set UnitClassGoodyHutUpgrade in database. Don't forget about replacements.
The extra movement on the ocean may be randomized (storms, calm). On the other hand, I have a weakness to random effects so it may be not the best idea.

I am curious if starting units have those effects. Are they instantly removed from Jungle starting plot? I don't know if it would be easy to disable effects before first city founded.