The Importance of National Wonders

I'm having an issue where my production seems to come to a slow drag during my middle game and I'm trying to figure out where I'm going wrong. My first suspicion is my National Wonders. I try to build the vast majority of them and I think I may be getting too aggressive about things like Grand Temple, East India, Heroic Epic ect.

Obviously, National College, Oxford, and National Epic are pretty much needed. Which other National Wonders do you guys always or nearly always get? Which ones are largely avoided?


Here's my scenario; I normally get NC and CM somewhere around 3rd or 4th city, If I'm being a warmonger I'll have Heroic Epic by this time (if I don't get it at this time, I normally don't ever). Those are easy to grab without too much disruption to my growth/production. Normally around my 5th city is when I get the techs to build the Ironworks, EIC, GT. The problem is that normally my 4th city, let alone my 5th, and sometimes my 3rd city don't even have the required base buildings. And at this point I'm normally only a short stint away from unlocking Oxford.

At that point I'm franticaly building Library/Uni in the 5th city (which can take up to 40-50 turns for both combined). The Shrine/Temple for GT take slightly less time, but still need to get built somewhere in that time.

For Ironworks, I'll usually have workshops already. If I've built my 4th or 5th at the time I want Ironworks I'll just buy workshop in the last expo. I figure it helps get the rest of the base buildings built so it should be one of the first buildings I get.

But getting all of the base buildings up takes soooooooooooo long in the last city I built that it delays some of the National wonders till i'm getting ready to move from mid game to the end game.

Hermitage?!? LOL. I've only been able to get this one when focusing on a CV.


Am I spending too much time on these buildings? To many hammers in my expos going to base buildings?

Do I need so much infrastructure in my 3rd-5th city? I mean, I'm literally building Library/Shrine/Uni/Temple/Workshop/Colluseum/Market and to a lesser extent Monument-Opera House/Barracks in my last expos. Is that to much?

If you are playing Tradtion don't bother with the 5th city. It won't get the free benefits (monument/ aquaduct) and slows down science and culture, let alone national wonders.

You've identified the four main early wonders. I always get Hermitage but often don't bother with Grand Temple unless going for a religious game.

The first thing to say is that they're easier to get when you have fewer cities, so not Liberty.Tradition is obvious, but I like to go 2-3 city Honour and the lack of cities is great for National Wonders. Piety can vary depending on how many cities you plant.

I consider the Ironworks to be basically as important as the first 3 you mentioned, taking into account the production boost from the associated workshops. I always build it asap after Machinery.

The heroic epic can seldom be built to affect classical era units whilst still producing enough for conquest, which is a shame. Perhaps with an amazing salt start or something, but even then it has to be built instead of 2-4(?) CBs depending on how many cities you have. I often build it to affect a second wave of xbows/knights when going for early dom; knights almost become musket strength, 23 up from 20. It's also really worth it for chivalry rushes like camels and keshiks.

I think the East India is worth it in special circumstances. Firstly, it should be in a coastal city to get the maximum benefit from valuable trade routes.
Secondly, if in a peaceful game it's worth it in a city (even landlocked) which is in range of other civs' cities - especially if built in a city with very diverse resources - to attract foreign trade routes. 10 or less tiles from their cities is perfect, but 15 is also ok since AIs like to build caravanasaries (more along roads but I don't know how to calculate that).

The Grand Temple as soon as I have the time - the 8 extra faith builds up over the game and is worth it in the long run, as is the doubled pressure. I normally built it after unis/workshops at some point in the Renaissance Era. It's the kind of building that should always come second to the Ironworks unless you desperately need faith.

As for the Hermitage, I rarely get the chance to build it due to lacking the relevant cultural buildings; I only beeline it for CVs. Do you all eventually build it even if going for dom? As soon as you reach the tech or later? All of the prerequisite buildings seem like a big opportunity cost.

The Circus Maximus as and when I need the happiness and not before.

Mahasona said:

If you are playing Tradtion don't bother with the 5th city. It won't get the free benefits (monument/ aquaduct) and slows down science and culture, let alone national wonders.

You've identified the four main early wonders. I always get Hermitage but often don't bother with Grand Temple unless going for a religious game.

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Agreed, when going Tradition, skip the 5th city. If it's really good, chances are an AI will eventually found near there anyway, in which case you could let them pay for its startup costs.

As I recall, the Grand Temple can only be built in a holy city (in addition to having to have a Temple every where), so by definition if you skipped founding a religion it will be skipped.
The temples themselves should be greatly delayed if your not planning on founding a religion, but depending upon what turn number you win could still pay for themselves in terms of faith based Great People in the Industrial era.

If you have buttloads of culture to spare (and many people will disagree with this, but just throwing it out there) maybe you could adopt Piety just to halve the time it takes to build shrines and temples.

Athenaeum said:

If you have buttloads of culture to spare (and many people will disagree with this, but just throwing it out there) maybe you could adopt Piety just to halve the time it takes to build shrines and temples.

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By the time you complete your first tree, you don't need construction bonuses on Shrines. The bonus on Temples is the only part of this worth while, and even then other than sacred sites induced victory they'll be a bigger economic bonus from several other policy openers.

I know, I wouldn't do it either but that's why I said I'm just throwing it out there. OP said he wanted to build some of these things in shorter time.

Some nearby natural wonders can be really useful. Mt. Everest for example can give you 2 food and 20 faith from the start so if you get that tile in your borders early, you're more likely to get a religion quicker.

National wonders and natural wonders are different things. And there is no Mt. Everest natural wonder in the game.

Browd said:

National wonders and natural wonders are different things. And there is no Mt. Everest natural wonder in the game.

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What wonder is it then?

There is no natural wonder that gives 2 food and 20 faith. And natural wonders are off-topic for this thread.

Don't waste Oxford on unimportant techs. Save it for a key one (Radio for Ideologies is often a decent choice, Plastics for Research Labs is also good, or for war focus can use it on Artillery).

Athenaeum said:

I know, I wouldn't do it either but that's why I said I'm just throwing it out there. OP said he wanted to build some of these things in shorter time.

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The only time to do something like that is if you're doing a Liberty/Piety hybrid (lots of cities that build cheap Shrines for 2 faith each).

sixty4half said:

Obviously, National College, Oxford, and National Epic are pretty much needed.

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Do people agree with National Epic being in the top three National Wonders? Sure, it is available early, but I tend to keep postponing it for guilds or other NW. Am I doing things wrong?

beetle said:

Do people agree with National Epic being in the top three National Wonders? Sure, it is available early, but I tend to keep postponing it for guilds or other NW. Am I doing things wrong?

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I always get
National College
Oxford University
Writer's Guild
Artist's Guild
National Epic

I usually get:
Circus Maximus
Ironworks

I sometimes get:
Hermitage
Musician's Guild
Heroic Epic

I never get:
Grand Temple
NSA
East India Trading Company
National Visitor's Center

The entire reason why you get the national epic is to speed up the amount of great people that you get. So delaying your guilds to build it is probably the wrong order of doing it.

beetle said:

Do people agree with National Epic being in the top three National Wonders? Sure, it is available early, but I tend to keep postponing it for guilds or other NW. Am I doing things wrong?

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No.

Think of it this way: say you generate 5500 Great Writer points over the course of the game. That's enough for 10 Great Writers. Now say we have the best case scenario and flat out add 25% more points (since if you already have Aesthetics opener, Leaning Tower, and one of the Freedom/Order policies then you're really only getting a 2/1.75 = 14% bonus...and even less if Arts Funding is passed) which brings us to 6875. That's enough for...one more Great Writer, which is 10% more (note that it wouldn't even give a single extra Great Writer if we already have even a 50% bonus to Great Writer generation). So realistically building the National Epic instantly is at most one extra Great Artist, Great Writer, Great Musician, and Great Engineer/Scientist/Merchant. And delaying the relevant specialist buildings (Guilds, Universities, Markets, Factories) for the National Epic only hurts you.

Now, getting those Great People a few turns earlier by building the National Epic when convenient certainly doesn't hurt...but National College/Ironworks/Oxford are definitely three that are more important.

Sayya said:

I never get:
Grand Temple

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Now why is that? It's as good as four Temples and has no maintenance cost.

LordBalkoth said:

Now why is that? It's as good as four Temples and has no maintenance cost.

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My faith game is garbage, but honestly it really just comes down to- I'd rather have more growth, production and science in my cities. And if I have growth, science, and production, I'd rather be making units to destroy the AI with.

I find it to be really difficult to build all the buildings in my games. There's just way too many. So I usually let faith take a back seat.

If I put temples and great temples in my builds, then the list of things to build in my cities becomes really really long.

Sayya said:

My faith game is garbage, but honestly it really just comes down to- I'd rather have more growth, production and science in my cities. And if I have growth, science, and production, I'd rather be making units to destroy the AI with.

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If your goal is Domination victory (and either pre-Industrial OR Honor/Commerce/Autocracy combo), I suppose. But being able to Faith buy Engineers and Scientists is extremely powerful (can shave off 24+ turns on a Science victory overall, rush to key techs faster, or rush important/contested wonders in general). I mean, if you have 4 cities as tradition then getting up 4 Shrines and 4 Temples will take 560 production.

If you rush your Ideology's wonder with a faith bought Great Engineer then you're basically coming out 500 production ahead...and that's just the first Great Person you bought. Wind up as far ahead or even even further ahead in production for any wonder in the Modern Era or later...and even rushing something like Brandenburg Gate saves 190 hammers.

Sayya said:

I find it to be really difficult to build all the buildings in my games. There's just way too many. So I usually let faith take a back seat.

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Don't build every building in every city. Stables needs 2+ pastures to be worth it, for example. Harbor isn't needed unless it's a major sea route hub or you need it to form the city connection. Seaport needs 2+ sea resources to be worth it. Armory/Military Academy aren't needed unless Autocracy (for happiness) or you're going to pump military units out of the city (which means it'll have to be a fairly good city). Barracks isn't needed unless/until you want Heroic Epic. Caravansary isn't needed except for 1-2 cities in your empire. Forge needs either 2+ iron and/or needs to be a city you'll make good use of the production bonus on land units. Etc.

LordBalkoth said:

If your goal is Domination victory (and either pre-Industrial OR Honor/Commerce/Autocracy combo), I suppose. But being able to Faith buy Engineers and Scientists is extremely powerful (can shave off 24+ turns on a Science victory overall, rush to key techs faster, or rush important/contested wonders in general). I mean, if you have 4 cities as tradition then getting up 4 Shrines and 4 Temples will take 560 production.

If you rush your Ideology's wonder with a faith bought Great Engineer then you're basically coming out 500 production ahead...and that's just the first Great Person you bought. Wind up as far ahead or even even further ahead in production for any wonder in the Modern Era or later...and even rushing something like Brandenburg Gate saves 190 hammers.

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My faith game is crap, not nonexistant. But it's very civ/map dependant.

My issue is that theology comes up at around the time you want to be building comp bows to upgrade with some exp into xbows, education, workshops, (and if you're liberty) aquaducts, and other guilds.

So if we're assuming around turn 100ish, we're getting ~800-1200 faith. That's a one great person difference in a time you really really need to be utilizing your hammers.

Sayya said:

My issue is that theology comes up at around the time you want to be building comp bows to upgrade with some exp into xbows, education, workshops, (and if you're liberty) aquaducts, and other guilds.

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Er, Temples unlock with Philosophy.

Unless you mean that you're building Temples but NOT the Grand Temple which would be really puzzling (unless you're playing a very wide game). On four cities it costs 245 hammers for the 8 faith (and 0 gpt) whereas the temples cost 400 hammers for 8 faith (and cost 8 gpt to maintain).

LordBalkoth said:

Er, Temples unlock with Philosophy.

Unless you mean that you're building Temples but NOT the Grand Temple which would be really puzzling (unless you're playing a very wide game). On four cities it costs 245 hammers for the 8 faith (and 0 gpt) whereas the temples cost 400 hammers for 8 faith (and cost 8 gpt to maintain).

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I rarely have temples in anything other than my capital and maybe the first city I put down, so I've never looked into it.

The wonder is starting to sound like it's amazing if you already have temples up (like you said, giving yourself twice the temples, I guess for 2.5/4 of the hammers), but I rarely have all the temples up.

My 4th cities struggle with getting up libraries/granary/workshop/aquaduct/etc. Tossing in a shrine/temple in a timely manner sounds daunting.