The Importance of National Wonders

Sayya said:

My 4th cities struggle with getting up libraries/granary/workshop/aquaduct/etc. Tossing in a shrine/temple in a timely manner sounds daunting.

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Er, what policy tree are we talking here? If you're having four total cities then it sounds like Tradition...but if you're Tradition then you don't need to build an Aqueduct.

I'd also point out that, especially early on, production > growth. If you have a brand new 1 pop city as Tradition on a non-hill and you work, say, unimproved grassland...all you're gaining is 1 extra science and 1 more unhappiness in a few turns. Whereas working an unimproved hill is *tripling* the rate at which you produce stuff. And it's likely that your other cities can make better use of the extra population (because they already have things like libraries and you're probably limited by happiness to some degree).

The main growth is after you get Civil Service and finish Tradition -- more food from farms, 15% growth rate, and instant Aqueducts.

What kind of settings do you usually play on (in terms of difficulty, map type, number of Civs, etc)?

Sayya said:

I rarely have temples in anything other than my capital and maybe the first city I put down, so I've never looked into it.

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If not for the Grand Temple, why are you bothering with early temples even for just one or two cities?

The wonder is starting to sound like it's amazing if you already have temples up

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That is like saying that Hermitage is amazing if you already have Opera Houses up. If it were not for Hermitage, I might not bother with Amphitheaters and Opera Houses in most cities. If I don't found, I postpone shrines and temples until much later in the game. The main reason to build temples is to unlock the GT.

like you said, giving yourself twice the temples, I guess for 2.5/4 of the hammers

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That is good, and yes it is a fine value, but what I actually like GT for most is the double religious pressure. It makes keeping my religion very easy.

My 4th cities struggle with getting up libraries/granary/workshop/aquaduct/etc. Tossing in a shrine/temple in a timely manner sounds daunting.

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I love the GT but I don't see why temples would be before any of that. Shrines after granary certainly but maybe after aqueducts too. By the time I am building them in my expos, shrines only take like three turns.

Does anyone know how many % the National Wonder costs go up by when a new city is built? Is it a linear scale?

It is a linear addition to high fixed cost. The CFF page (which has not been updated for BNW) says 125 hammers plus 30 per extra city.

I think this question is very situational. It really depends on what the empire needs. Although I would consider NC to be the single most important structure in the game. Oxford of course is super clutch when beelining radio or dynamite.

National Epic is also a must have. The great person generation is key to getting your scientists, artists and writers cranking out. You should get this right after your university since you will be working scientists slots.

After those it's a toss up for me. Some times I don't make Circus Maximus because I'm always super happy. I often get the grand temple because 8 faith is well.. A LOT. If you go for pagodas or mosques it's really needed.

The faith is really important to get early so that things cost less. Once you hit renaissance everything goes up in cost so it's best to get your faith rocking as early as possible so that you can get your faith buildings knocked out and start saving up for your engineers with faith.

East India is a nice little boost but not totally necessary. The same is true of the Heroic Epic and Hermitage. I rarely get those two.

Mahasona said:

If you are playing Tradtion don't bother with the 5th city. It won't get the free benefits (monument/ aquaduct) and slows down science and culture, let alone national wonders.

You've identified the four main early wonders. I always get Hermitage but often don't bother with Grand Temple unless going for a religious game.

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I often build the grand temple when I am close to the industrial era and know I will not spawn another great prophet. The extra faith snowballs and can make a difference in the late game. I generally have temples in all of my cities anyway.

National wonders are really useful when you get universal healthcare. An early investment into building natural wonders early can eventually snowball and add up to happiness support for a future ideology since most ideologies already have universal healthcare which gives happiness per national wonder that is built.

How about this scenario with my Grand Temple.

I'm playing Bysantine(random) Liberty/Piety on a Quick Speed King, Archipeligo(random) with Random Personalities map. I've just dropped my 5th city and rush bought Library because I was mid construction on NC. I've got 3 more spots I can drop cities, 1 is with Lake Victoria/Iron/Atoll/Deer/Dyes (I already have 1 dye). Another is a single tile Salt island with 3 Atolls and a fish. This spot might provoke Shaka (random personalities) since I promised not to settle, but it's about 13 tiles on the other side of his main island, with a small island with a CS inbetween. And the third with Citrus/Gems (I already have gems)/Wheat/Incense. The Citrus could be grabbed by Russia's Culture before I get there. She'll ask me not to settle again if I drop there. She might even grab this island if her main island isn't big enough or have enough resources.

I've got Temples in all but the 4th and 5th city. I got a GP with the Liberty Finisher so my religion is already complete with Stone Circles, +2g per city following, +30% Distance spread, +25% pressure, Mosques and Pagodas. I'm currently making 19 faith and 49gold a turn at about 100AD.

Should I settle the 6th and 7th city before going for the Grand Temple? And of the three spots, I'm looking at the Lake Victoria spot for 6th and the single tile salt island (super easy to defend) for the 7th city.

reddishrecue said:

National wonders are really useful when you get universal healthcare. An early investment into building natural wonders early can eventually snowball and add up to happiness support for a future ideology since most ideologies already have universal healthcare which gives happiness per national wonder that is built.

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This is actually one of the weaker of the happiness ideologies tenets.
Even at 4 cities, a tenet providing 1 happiness each for 2 buildings will provide more.

The wider your empire the more questionable the wonders get. NC and Oxford are the only one you'll do absolutely all the time. And Oxford doesn't even need to be built fast. The national visit center is obviously a must have for culture victories.

The heroic epic is a late domination only building. It's worth it if you aim for renaissance+ warfare. Barracks are cheap buildings to make in all your cities and you'll probably make them anyway for the experience and autocracy happiness.

The national epic makes sense only in a city loaded with specialists. The bonus as stated previously amount to around 1 additional GP of each category. So if it's costly and you don't have the guilds in that city I'd seriously question the need for it.

Ironworks is a very good building. The advantage is that it's really not necessary to build it in the capital if that one is already overloaded. For my typical game the most difficult wonders are the renaissance ones. This makes the Ironworks often come at a very poor time to build it in the capital ! If you have time an no pressing wonder to get (Ltop, sistine, notre dame etc) get it before these are available. Otherwise I'd skip it in the capital, build it in the second best city and then have 2 great production cities. The second will then be able to help make other wonders that come a bit later like Taj Mahal, Porcelain or Big Ben.

Grand temple is decent but often hard to get early due to more pressing matters than temples. On the other hand you need the big faith mostly for the Industrial era (and above) so it can slightly wait. If you manage to get it early it's good but I usually can't.

East India Company is rarely made due to the poor return. I mostly use internal routes and getting extra out of it through AI routes requires some luck. I don't like it very much. I guess you could try to make it with extra time...

Hermitage is the most tricky one. It's good but making Operas is a waste of time if you don't go for a culture victory. Due to a lack of time in expansions I usually vote against trying to build it in most of my game. If your culture truly is awful maybe you could try to go for it or if your games are slower than mine and allow for more buildings. It's a lot better for culture since that VC need the operas anyway and it has slots. You'll find it a bit tricky to make it during renaissance while having a wide game since it will be competing with good wonders and cost a ton to build.

joncnunn said:

This is actually one of the weaker of the happiness ideologies tenets.
Even at 4 cities, a tenet providing 1 happiness each for 2 buildings will provide more.

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It could be weak but at least it is available to all ideologies.

Don't underestimate a coastal Tradition capital with the East India company. It's completely broken with Venice, but also really good with the likes of Portugal, Morocco and basically anyone who'd play peacefully and send a lot of external trade routes.

Acken said:

Ironworks is a very good building. The advantage is that it's really not necessary to build it in the capital if that one is already overloaded.

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I want to +1 this observation. If my cap is not coastal, then Ironworks goes to my best coastal city. After that, it also builds Heroic Epic because I find the strength buff especially nice for ships. And is nice to off-load some work from the cap.

East India Company is rarely made due to the poor return.

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Are you playing friendly and watching your incoming trades? Most games it seems to me I can only really afford internal routes after EIC is up. (Which is different problem with my play, but my point is that EIC seems to me to be working as advertised.) Also, EIC is higher priority with me when I found and have the Grand Temple because there is synergy between the two. I always pick Tithe -- it is weak but the only founder benefit that does anything and it work fractionally. So EIC generates trades from the AI for money, and then GT converts a few citizens for a little more money. This is all single digit gpt, but from NW that are worth building for other reasons.

I made a funny discovery in a recent game, usually I get heavily influenced by different ideologies around the end of Industrial era because my culture output is subpar and I have almost zero tourism. In this game I built the Musician Guild early and popped 3 works of music in the opera houses I prebuilt, thus unlocking the Hermitage much earlier. The added culture and tourism seemed enough to keep me from getting badly pressured and I finished the game (SV) with the happiness close to 30

@st412, how was Hermitage unlocked earlier? Just because for that game you built the opera houses? I think that having a themed Hermitage really helps with Ideology pressure, so I think I value that NW more than most. I suppose if one is regularly winning before t250, then it's not so important, but my games go 100 turns longer than that!

reddishrecue said:

...but at least it is available to all ideologies.

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No, it is not. Two of the three though.

Universal Healthcare is Level 1 tenet for all 3 ideologies.

Yikes! I wish you had corrected me about that when I was ranting about Freedom's Tier 1 tenets being below average!

beetle said:

Yikes! I wish you had corrected me about that when I was ranting about Freedom's Tier 1 tenets being below average!

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Given that in most cases regardless of the ideology chosen you want to reach level 3 ASAP, and that Freedom has a massive happiness bonus in a level 2 tenet that also extends Golden Ages, I find I never need any additional happiness tenets going Tradition.

beetle said:

Yikes! I wish you had corrected me about that when I was ranting about Freedom's Tier 1 tenets being below average!

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I feel that Freedom's tier 1 and tier 2 tenets are great but their tier 3 tenets are usually practically useless to me.

I'd almost rather go Order every time even when extremely tall.