[WIP][BNW]Into the Renaissance Deluxe

Yasssh! I can't wait! This looks amazing, ITR is the one scenario wish was getting revamped instead of Conquests.

Especially now that JFD is doing it, it will be even better...


If only this was playable in hotseat

Will there be some sort of World Congress included? Apostolic Palace comes to mind from Civ 4 that I think would be amazing if incorporated somehow.

...So wherever does that icon and color for Sicily come from anyways, and whose art is it to be based off? I'm not wholly certain what exactly their whole role in anything is.

Same for Armenia, they clearly look like they have a plan intended for them but I'm not certain what they're meant to do in this one, considering they weren't even in Armenia at the time.

E: Also, peering at the map, I wonder if it wouldn't be more convenient to just make the whole Mediterranean shallow coast, just so that if an AI does decide it's crusadestime, they have a much easier time getting there, instead of having to shuffle around singlefile, or if they want to just run all over the place, or who knows. I dunno, it just never seemed to me like the more open Mediterranean was historically super hard to just sail straight through, if ships loaded up for less stops? Trade routes obviously went more along the coast but that's just because of all the stops, I imagine warships wouldn't be opposed from heading straight from Greece to Alexandria or Tripoli.

The Norman Sicilians led the charge in the first Crusade, establishing Antioch in the process.

Armenia is the Cilician Armenian Kingdom - a crusader state founded by a Armenian refugees.

ModMonger said:

Is there any time frame for the release of this mod at all?

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Not particularly.

TheMarshmallowBear said:

Will there be some sort of World Congress included? Apostolic Palace comes to mind from Civ 4 that I think would be amazing if incorporated somehow.

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World Congress wouldn't really suit - historical weirdness of the Apostolic Palace inviting Muslims and Mongols to congress notwithstanding, it's a very difficult system to mod (mostly impossible without DLL), so I couldn't change much of it.

Gyra Solune said:

...So wherever does that icon and color for Sicily come from anyways, and whose art is it to be based off? I'm not wholly certain what exactly their whole role in anything is.

Same for Armenia, they clearly look like they have a plan intended for them but I'm not certain what they're meant to do in this one, considering they weren't even in Armenia at the time.

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Colour for Sicily comes from JFD's Anglo-Saxons, as that was his preference.

As JFD said - both Sicily and Lesser Armenia were important during the Crusades and in general in the overall Christian struggle against the Muslims.

Historical justification: Norman conquest of Sicily and southern Italy ousted the Muslim emirs from both realms. Norman duke Bohemond of Taranto was one of the leaders of the first crusade and carved out the Principality of Antioch for himself, which outlived the Kingdom of Jerusalem. Under Roger II in the 1140's and 1150's, the Sicilians occupied towns and fortresses along the coast of North Africa, beating the Almohads there. Then in 1194 the Hohenstaufen family began their reign in Sicily, and eventually it would become part of Frederick Barbarossa's Holy Roman Empire - so it's relevant to the game's mechanics.

Cilician Armenia represents an interesting faction (Armenians not in Armenia), that was vital to the European crusaders. It provided manpower, mercenaries, sanctuary and siege engineers for crusader armies marching to the Holy Land. Their fight against the Seljuks relieved some pressure put on the Crusaders too, and helped Byzantium regain their strength after the disaster of the Fourth Crusade. The were a relevant player in Anatolia for quite some time.

Gyra Solune said:

Also, peering at the map, I wonder if it wouldn't be more convenient to just make the whole Mediterranean shallow coast, just so that if an AI does decide it's crusadestime, they have a much easier time getting there, instead of having to shuffle around singlefile, or if they want to just run all over the place, or who knows. I dunno, it just never seemed to me like the more open Mediterranean was historically super hard to just sail straight through, if ships loaded up for less stops?

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There are a couple places where I inteded to place some shallow sea tiles, but forgot (notably, there's a gap between Africa and Sardinia, invalidating the possibilty for the Muslims to settle them or easily invade them. But as you mentioned, sailing straight on across the Mediterranean wasn't exactly safe. Particularly in the first couple crusades, as they depended on leased or purchased galleys from Genoa and Venice. Galleys were coastal ships, and had to make frequent stops on the coast to resupply, and couldn't sail on high waves. The appearance of cogs remedied the situation somewhat after the fourth crusade. I guess some coastal tiles could be added to facilitate sailing (I'm all for that), but making the whole sea shallow is a no-go for me.

Maybe adding atrrition(from sea tiles) could solve it?

JFD said:

The Norman Sicilians led the charge in the first Crusade, establishing Antioch in the process.

Armenia is the Cilician Armenian Kingdom - a crusader state founded by a Armenian refugees.



Not particularly.



World Congress wouldn't really suit - historical weirdness of the Apostolic Palace inviting Muslims and Mongols to congress notwithstanding, it's a very difficult system to mod (mostly impossible without DLL), so I couldn't change much of it.

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You could always remove all the votes and if possible ensure that Catholicism is already the "World Religion" giving everyone their votes, this would prevent the non Catholic nations from voting.

TheMarshmallowBear said:

You could always remove all the votes and if possible ensure that Catholicism is already the "World Religion" giving everyone their votes, this would prevent the non Catholic nations from voting.

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That would screw up everything and give them an unfair advantage.

ModMonger said:

That would screw up everything and give them an unfair advantage.

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Allowing Mongols to become the Emperor is unfair too.

It's not EU4 yet.

On the topic of it being unbalanced for only Catholic civs to be able to become HRE, there are other things for other religions; Islamic civs could become Caliph, & Orthodox civs could become Patriarch.

janboruta said:

Allowing Mongols to become the Emperor is unfair too.

It's not EU4 yet.

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They're actually removing that from EU4 in the next patch. RIP Kongolese Emperor.

spendabuck said:

On the topic of it being unbalanced for only Catholic civs to be able to become HRE, there are other things for other religions; Islamic civs could become Caliph, & Orthodox civs could become Patriarch.

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HRE, Caliph and... Patriarch? I don't think so. Unlike the other two, patriarchs didn't actually lead their nations.

spendabuck said:

On the topic of it being unbalanced for only Catholic civs to be able to become HRE, there are other things for other religions; Islamic civs could become Caliph, & Orthodox civs could become Patriarch.

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I stated a while back that that was the plan, but I'm not going to be doing anything more with them than what is in the vanilla scenario. It's not easy to manipulate the World Congress mechanic for this scenario - there's a reason there are so few World Congress mods, or so few mods which mod the WC -, and I'm not wanting to extend my workload exorbitantly in order to do so anyway. In order to accomodate a separate vote for Caliph and Patriarch, I have to recreate the HRE vote in its own mechanic (because of the way BNW changed the UN, I can't use the WC at all); so that should tell you something about how much more work it'd be to change the existing WC.

Natan35 said:

HRE, Caliph and... Patriarch? I don't think so. Unlike the other two, patriarchs didn't actually lead their nations.

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True, but things like that can be suspended. The alternative is Mongols and Muslims become HRE, which is just historically worse, don't you think.

DoctorMcGann said:

They're actually removing that from EU4 in the next patch. RIP Kongolese Emperor.

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Makes sense

JFD said:

True, but things like that can be suspended. The alternative is Mongols and Muslims become HRE, which is just historically worse, don't you think.

Makes sense

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Well see, since the Mongols can follow whatever they want, and the Muslims did have contact with Europe, no. But then, there's that piety thing, which changes it... But what about Protestants?

Also, i got the reference. I've been reading Marbozir the Baptizer's teachings recently.

Natan, Protestants, like Fairy Pokemon, Pouakai's good will, and the mailman, aren't real, ergo, they will not be getting anything.

*being touching very touchy subject, forgive my boldness*
Ummm... Britain is "Protestant". What you mean it doesn't exist? You removed them? The reformation is an integral part of European history. Removing it would make the scenario horribly inaccurate. That's rewriting history.

Also, will great theologians(or whatever) have realistic names?(as in, religion- appropriate)

Natan35 said:

*being touching very touchy subject, forgive my boldness*
Ummm... Britain is "Protestant". What you mean it doesn't exist? You removed them? The reformation is an integral part of European history. Removing it would make the scenario horribly inaccurate. That's rewriting history.

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Welp.

Firstly Civ seems to be primarily about rewriting history - so I wouldn't worry about that one. Secondly, I get what you are saying about 'the Reformation' being a major event in European history - but I guess the issue with what you are suggesting is that Protestantism, unlike Catholicism or the Orthodox faith has no unified body. For instance Anglicanism is not the same as Calvinism etc, etc. I mean, I guess you could have the Protestant States develop national churches, but even so that doesn't serve well as an institution.

In regards to your comment about Britain - I have no idea when the scenario is supposed to end - but England, Scotland and the Irish Kingdoms would have all been Catholic at 1095 AD (where the scenario starts IIRC), with this only changing with the Henrican Great Matter and Break with Rome. Even that didn't really have a profound effect on religion, as Henry's church basically followed the major tenets of Catholicism bar the Pope. He was Defender of the Faith though, so you can't expect him to have been a genuine fan of Protestantism.

I'm pretty sure JFD would be one of the last people to deny Britain's existence - not even sure where that leap of logic comes from . In any case, this is neither here nor there, I can certainly understand not giving Protestants anything special, certainly since IIRC this will be the case in P&P.

Yeah, but... It would be kinda weird, to have the amount of civilizations that may choose a holy Roman emperor cut by half when the reformation starts, don't you think?

Which is why it won't discriminate between Catholics and Protestants. The Emperors remained Catholic, but his subjects converted. We can stretch history a bit to accommodate Protestant Emperors.

Well, I suppose its okay then.
(In yar face, Innocent)

Oh, and will it be possible to trade those votes?(like you trade WC votes)

So there will be no Protestant religion? That's.. seems like bad decision.

One of the key elements that this caused was simliar to ideologies in the main game that it changes your alliances, since in the scenario the people who actually flipped to Protestantism were quickly denounced by the remaining Catholics.