School Prayer and Islam

A friend and I had a debate about school prayer time being mandated and this came up when I said it wasn't necessary. He cited that Muslims have to pray five times a day towards Mecca and so schooling would have an issue here.

It's an interesting question. While we can forego school prayer for most faiths, those faiths that actually require prayers at specific times present an issue.

Mine:

1. If Allah is the same loving God that Jehovah and Yahweh is, then logically he'll forgive you for putting off prayer at specific times to actually better yourself. Just donate more to charity or something to make up the net good.

2. Just as we shouldn't make our laws solely based on the majority's whim, we shouldn't extensively cater to the minority alone either.

3. You have a choice to either reap the benefits of secular society or the costs of non-participation. Choose. School exists to help you gain a profession later in life, not to fit every specific nuance of your faith. Church is for prayer; school is not.

4. I imagine some Muslims don't actually literally pray five times a day or at specific times. If not at specific times, you can just pray five times when you get home.

5. Overall I think the catering to believers of any faith by government agencies has gone too far. You're in prison, say eating x is against your faith, and bam, chances are you won't have to eat x. My opinion? The crime you committed probably was against your faith but that didn't stop you, so you have no right to complain. Welcome to secular society.

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Thoughts? Solutions to this issue?

There's really only the midday prayer that would fall during school hours normally so it shouldn't be too much of an issue. They can just make it up when they get home.

Taniciusfox said:

5. Overall I think the catering to believers of any faith by government agencies has gone too far. You're in prison, say eating x is against your faith, and bam, chances are you won't have to eat x. My opinion? The crime you committed probably was against your faith but that didn't stop you, so you have no right to complain. Welcome to secular society.

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Committing a crime does not mean that you are subject to the whims of your captors. Denying the right to religious practices would not be appropriate unless it were specifically part of the sentence, and it would not be appropriate as part of any sentence.

Thoughts? Solutions to this issue?

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You seem to have missed 'let them pray if they want' as a solution. Why must it be mandated (other than mandating that schools should let kids pray if they want)?

Camikaze said:

Committing a crime does not mean that you are subject to the whims of your captors. Denying the right to religious practices would not be appropriate unless it were specifically part of the sentence, and it would not be appropriate as part of any sentence.

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Ah. But the crime they committed was probably illegal under their faith as well, so IMO, their "excuse" is pure crap and should not be respected.

It just seems odd. Murder is fine to a Jewish convict but eating non-kosher food is not? What?

You seem to have missed 'let them pray if they want' as a solution. Why must it be mandated (other than mandating that schools should let kids pray if they want)?

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Well, when I said "school prayer," I was referring to a hypothetical where it's actually mandated by the state. Whereas most faiths could go without an actual time for prayer in school, Muslim students are a special consideration due to specific prayer times.

As for praying if they want, well sure, that's allowed by recess/lunch time.

Taniciusfox said:

Ah. But the crime they committed was probably illegal under their faith as well, so IMO, their "excuse" is pure crap and should not be respected.

It just seems odd. Murder is fine to a Jewish convict but eating non-kosher food is not? What?

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You're assuming that the religious person committed a crime with their religion in mind. You cannot punish people for hypocrisy, especially if it is entirely inadvertent.

Well, when I said "school prayer," I was referring to a hypothetical where it's actually mandated by the state. Whereas most faiths could go without an actual time for prayer in school, Muslim students are a special consideration due to specific prayer times.

As for praying if they want, well sure, that's allowed by recess/lunch time.

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I'm still not sure I entirely understand. Are you saying that you're referring to a period of time in the school day mandated by the government in which students must pray? Obviously that is not a good thing. Or are you referring to a mandate by the government that schools allow sufficient time in the day for students to pray if they so wish? I would see no problem with such a mandate, as it does not really inconvenience any learning but to the individual in question.

Camikaze said:

You're assuming that the religious person committed a crime with their religion in mind. You cannot punish people for hypocrisy, especially if it is entirely inadvertent.

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If religion is truly important to you, it's always on your mind in my opinion. You don't just commit sin on purpose and then revert to good ole faithful the next second. Otherwise what's the point in faith?

I'm still not sure I entirely understand. Are you saying that you're referring to a period of time in the school day mandated by the government in which students must pray? Obviously that is not a good thing. Or are you referring to a mandate by the government that schools allow sufficient time in the day for students to pray if they so wish? I would see no problem with such a mandate, as it does not really inconvenience any learning but to the individual in question.

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Well, I'm referring to the mandate that time be given for all students to pray(or not in the event they're agnostic or atheist).

I'm against school prayer altogether since I don't feel it should be in an institution funded by people not of the faith(unless we start exempting atheists and whatnot from school taxes but this creates a huge mess!), nor the place of a state institution. This is what faith school is for if prayer is so important.

Muslims are an interesting case however, that I hadn't considered since school prayer here tends to focus on Christian beliefs. They actually have a mandated time for prayer which can fall within school hours. How is that factored in without catering to a minority?

My friend suggested each school could just have a room repurposed as a mosque for students, but that would be catering, and how would it be paid for? Never mind most parents would probably disapprove of a faith that is not their own getting that kind of benefit.

I'm really not understanding the issue here. Let people pray if they want, simple as that. No harm done. No expense incurred. Letting people practice their faith is not indicative of sponsorship of that faith.

Taniciusfox said:

3. You have a choice to either reap the benefits of secular society or the costs of non-participation. Choose. School exists to help you gain a profession later in life, not to fit every specific nuance of your faith. Church is for prayer; school is not.

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Banning personal prayers at school is a bit too much IMO. I always call on divine forces before exams...

4. I imagine some Muslims don't actually literally pray five times a day or at specific times. If not at specific times, you can just pray five times when you get home.

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Definitely. And you don't need a prayer room either, it just have to be a clean place.

5. Overall I think the catering to believers of any faith by government agencies has gone too far. You're in prison, say eating x is against your faith, and bam, chances are you won't have to eat x. My opinion? The crime you committed probably was against your faith but that didn't stop you, so you have no right to complain. Welcome to secular society.

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Personally commiting something that is against the teachings of your religion is one thing. Knowingly forcing someone to commit something that is against the teachings of their religion is something else.

I object to preventing students praying in school, I prayed to Saint Jude Thaddeus and the Virgin Mary before finals and placed in the top 0.1% of the state on a course I never took.

What if a Santeria worshipper wanted to sacrifice a chicken before the test for the same reason? OK?

But I generally agree. If the prayers don't interfere with the operation of the school or interfere with the classes, what's the harm? The evangelicals at my high school regularly got together to pray during the lunch breaks.

I'm not saying prayer in schools should be banned. Only that there should be no special time for it. Wanna make prayers? Do it at lunchtime or whenever in-class activities permit. That is all.

taillesskangaru said:

Banning personal prayers at school is a bit too much IMO. I always call on divine forces before exams...

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I call on divine forces before any competition and generally they work.

I'm not talking banning of individual prayer though; there should just not be recognition of a time specifically for it. Now, if a class has free time, feel free to use it for prayer, but it shouldn't be legally mandated.

Grace is generally given for food or health from my experience. Lo and behold, what do you do at lunchtime. Eat food. Giving thanks to deity x can be reserved for that time slot.

Definitely. And you don't need a prayer room either, it just have to be a clean place.

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That certainly helps out. There could be no specially-adorned room for it for the simple fact I doubt a lot of the school prayer advocates had Islam in mind...

Personally commiting something that is against the teachings of your religion is one thing. Knowingly forcing someone to commit something that is against the teachings of their religion is something else.

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Why should a state institution have to cater to individual beliefs?

A correctional facility exists to punish/rehabilitate/etc. you, not for you to get what you want.

Here's another question relevant to my interests: is kosher food for inmates more expensive than non-kosher? If so, even more reason to deny them it. I don't want my tax dollars going to feed some person with a serious lack of priorities. Crime = good, eating non-kosher = bad. What the heck?

Taniciusfox said:

I'm not saying prayer in schools should be banned. Only that there should be no special time for it. Wanna make prayers? Do it at lunchtime or whenever in-class activities permit. That is all.

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Sure, you shouldn't be able to stand up randomly in English class during a reading of Hamlet and start praying to Zoroaster.

Banning or mandating prayer in school is not the way to go, though.

Solution: stop believing in fantasy and deal with reality on its own terms.

There was never a restriction on people individually praying in schools, Tan.

Taniciusfox said:

The crime you committed probably was against your faith but that didn't stop you

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Nope.

I don't think you should ban kids from praying in school, no one thinks that. That's made up by conservatives. I think it shouldn't be endorsed by the school.

fugazi said:

Solution: stop believing in fantasy and deal with reality on its own terms.

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I figured this kind of response would come eventually.

Let's argue the concept of school prayer without resort to "there is no God" or "it's all fantasy" or whatnot, please.

warpus said:

Banning or mandating prayer in school is not the way to go, though.

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Bill3000 said:

There was never a restriction on people individually praying in schools, Tan.

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civver_764 said:

I don't think you should ban kids from praying in school, no one thinks that. That's made up by conservatives. I think it shouldn't be endorsed by the school.

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Okay, question to everybody: Where did I propose banning prayer in school?

I'm merely advocating that the school should not recognise any specific time for prayer. From a very strong secularist perspective.

Yeah they already do that. There's nothing to advocate.

Incorrect; we have to advocate the secularist perspective or it won't be long before religion - well, Christian religion at least; I don't think those in favor of school prayer had Muslims in mind - finds its way into the schooling.

Religion is dying out =/ I don't think we have anything to worry about.

Taniciusfox said:

school prayer time

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What's this?