Idea: Outposts for taking land without creating cities

hardcore_gamer · Jul 19, 2013

Why isn't there some way to claim land without building a whole city?

I like what the recently released 4x game Fallen Enchantress: Legendery Heroes did to solve this problem: Outposts.

Basically, they are structures that claim ownership of land but don't found a new city.

I imagine outposts could be very useful in this game, since sometimes you just want places for your aircraft or ships to base in without actually colonizing the actual land.

Thoughts?

Aristos · Jul 19, 2013

I have toyed with that idea too, but then I realized how hard it will be to balance. In FE, the majority of the land is barren land, impossible to use by anybody (storyline), so outposts are not only necessary, but cannot be abused/exploited.

In Civ, land is key; almost every tile has some use. How to prevent the exploitation of the outpost (especially in human's hands)? I think that is the idea of the citadel.

What I would like though is a citadel that has more functionality. As an airbase, for example.

hardcore_gamer · Jul 20, 2013

Aristos said:
I have toyed with that idea too, but then I realized how hard it will be to balance. In FE, the majority of the land is barren land, impossible to use by anybody (storyline), so outposts are not only necessary, but cannot be abused/exploited.

In Civ, land is key; almost every tile has some use. How to prevent the exploitation of the outpost (especially in human's hands)? I think that is the idea of the citadel.

What I would like though is a citadel that has more functionality. As an airbase, for example.

This problem could be solved simply by putting a limit to how many outposts each player could create which scales depending on the map size.

Trade routes would also be overpowered if you could create an unlimited number, but there is a limit which then changes over time. Why not do the same for outposts so that the player can grab those resources he wants without creating a new city or because he wants a base for his troops?

I honestly feel a bit baffled something like this isn't in the Civ series yet seeing as this is the 5th installment so far (and that's not counting all of the expansion packs).

Aristos · Jul 20, 2013

hardcore_gamer said:
This problem could be solved simply by putting a limit to how many outposts each player could create which scales depending on the map size.

Trade routes would also be overpowered if you could create an unlimited number, but there is a limit which then changes over time. Why not do the same for outposts so that the player can grab those resources he wants without creating a new city or because he wants a base for his troops?

I honestly feel a bit baffled something like this isn't in the Civ series yet seeing as this is the 5th installment so far (and that's not counting all of the expansion packs).

Isn't that what the citadel is? Limited, you have to use a semi-scarce resource to build it... we are talking the same but with different words. Perhaps adding some more benefits to the citadel?

hardcore_gamer · Jul 20, 2013

Aristos said:
Isn't that what the citadel is? Limited, you have to use a semi-scarce resource to build it... we are talking the same but with different words. Perhaps adding some more benefits to the citadel?

You can't build the great generals needed to make the citadels. I want a special unit that builds outposts, and a fixed limit to how many outposts you can have depending on map size and tech level.

Aristos · Jul 20, 2013

I agree; I would like to see something like that too... I am not contradicting you, but I also worry about balance.

Callonia · Jul 20, 2013

I would like this as well. There's alot of land where i'm forced to burn happiness just to settle in horrible land in order to deny AIs easy access to my capital.

Roxlimn · Jul 20, 2013

You can buy Great Generals with Faith.

Mercade · Jul 20, 2013

Aristos said:
Isn't that what the citadel is? Limited, you have to use a semi-scarce resource to build it... we are talking the same but with different words. Perhaps adding some more benefits to the citadel?

Yes, more or less, with the exception that the Citadal can only be built in your own territory. If you were able to build the citadel in unclaimed territory, that would do the trick. Might even remove the -30% end-of-turn damage for the Outpost usage.

Roxlimn · Jul 20, 2013

You can build the Citadel on unclaimed territory. You just need the General to be adjacent to one previously claimed tile. Given the propensity for the tile selector to snake out to luxuries in unclaimed territories, you can (and I have) used Generals as outposts.

jaldaen · Jul 20, 2013

I was also thinking about this, too. Although one limitation that citadels have is the need to be adjacent to your territory. This doesn't quite get at what I need outposts to do. I need them to go over to that island or out of the way place that has a resource I want, but which is a terrible spot for a full-fledged city.

I like the idea of limited outposts because you don't want them spammed all over the place. Of course the other problem is that if you add outposts to the game, then the AI needs to know how to use them, too. Also, you need to decide what happens when an outpost is seized. Or if someone builds a city next to the outpost, etc.

Falconiano · Jul 20, 2013

I believe the best would be units conquering tiles. Makes the most sense to me.
Conquering tiles not inside your territory seem so unrealistic, how does the tile get supplies? Nah.
It would work like a tile improvement, you "work" the tile for X turns with a unit and it turns yours.

Still, the AI would need proper coding to be able to do it AND counter it as well.
Unless the devs themselves introduce this I can't see this happening beyond a rudimental implementation.

Roxlimn · Jul 20, 2013

Exactly what would be the historical inspiration for outposts? Wouldn't that be City States? Feitorias? Claimed territories? I'm not seeing why this makes sense. In every situation where a kingdom or nation needed a substantial amount of a particular resource, it had to spend a significant amount of resources to secure that resource. Why should Civ model something other than that?

CornPlanter · Jul 20, 2013

Exactly what would be the historical inspiration for outposts?

Forts, obviously.

Roxlimn · Jul 20, 2013

Feitorias in City States, then. Already there.

gmbodhi · Jul 20, 2013

I can already imagine my territory being completely encased by a bunch of outposts from all the civs in the world. AI players already wouldn't mind suffering from an extra city 4 tiles from your capitol just to annoy you, now imagine they can do that without all the penalties.

Fallen Enchantress also have a very dynamic border mechanism that comes from the Galactic Civilization series, the borders established by outposts will always get over-powered by adjacent city borders. So you can't simply send your pioneer (the unit responsible for settlements and outposts) half way across the map to claim a resource near another player's capitol, because your outposts will quickly being flipped to their side.

hardcore_gamer · Jul 20, 2013

Mercade said:
Yes, more or less, with the exception that the Citadal can only be built in your own territory. If you were able to build the citadel in unclaimed territory, that would do the trick. Might even remove the -30% end-of-turn damage for the Outpost usage.

Perhaps it is possible to mod the limitation out of the game so that you can put citadels wherever you want them?

Idea: Outposts for taking land without creating cities

hardcore_gamer

King

Aristos

Lightseeker

hardcore_gamer

King

Aristos

Lightseeker

hardcore_gamer

King

Aristos

Lightseeker

Callonia

Deity

Roxlimn

Deity

Mercade

the Counsellor

Roxlimn

Deity

jaldaen

Prince

Falconiano

Prince

Roxlimn

Deity

CornPlanter

Emperor

Roxlimn

Deity

gmbodhi

Chieftain

hardcore_gamer

King

Similar threads