Is BNW anti warmongering?

O

oPunchDrunko

Prince
Joined
Feb 23, 2010
Messages
325
I don't have the expansion yet, but I have been lurking around a couple forums. What I've gathered is that BNW somewhat penalizes players that like to make war and conquer cities. The world congress can vote a standing army tax, which can pretty much be a game killer if you're going for domination. And the other thing is science gets reduced for every city you have. That would cripple a warmonger also.
 
Civ is certainly much less of a war game than it was in Gods and Kings but I don't think I'd go as far as to say it's anti-warmongering. It's still pretty favorable to declare war in many situations, but peaceful tall players have an easier time keeping up; I do think the science penalty was kind of unnecessary especially since the ideology system makes picking up more social policies (the main advantage of staying small before) even more crucial but I'm not quite sure how much it affects wide play yet.
 
oPunchDrunko said:
I don't have the expansion yet, but I have been lurking around a couple forums. What I've gathered is that BNW somewhat penalizes players that like to make war and conquer cities. The world congress can vote a standing army tax, which can pretty much be a game killer if you're going for domination. And the other thing is science gets reduced for every city you have. That would cripple a warmonger also.
Click to expand...

Cripple? Hardly. My most successful BNW games have been Autocracy warmonger since ancient era. The science penalty penalizes unhappiness more than conquest and expansion, because as long as you grow your cities, they make more science than the penalty inflicts, which is only like 2%.

Standing army penalty can fail if there are other warmongers, especially if you didn't neglect city states. What BNW penalizes is pure warmonger at the expense of all other things: no CS, no culture, no trade routes, no caring about diplomacy. You have to take more things into account before warmongering, but the actual wars can bring you great wealth.
 
People who call Civilization a "wargame" have obviously never heard of, and even less likely played, Total War. Thats a Wargame. A real wargame. With military strategy and tactics unrivalled in the genre. As a military historian and analyst im mightily impressed with the realism and detail in Total War! If you can lead troops in total War, you could, theoretically, lead troops on a real battlefield. Compare that to Civilization if you dare and then call Civilization a wargame. Its an insult to wargames...

Civilization is about building a civilization (that stands the test of time...) and management of resources. Wars happen yes, but it doesn't even pretend to be a wargame. Its a relaxed game with a little bit of everything, and its very fun to play. Maybe a bit dumbed down with Civ 5 but the genre is highly successful and will hopefully live forever as a "Build a civilization"-game that will keep us entertained for many years to come.
 
The ability to capture great works of your enemies is a interesting buff for a warmonger, also the Autocracy path give some really good military buffs, not to mention you have the ability to raid your enemies trade routes and also with a lot of the gold from tiles being gone fighting a offensive war has a bigger impact on the defending civs economy, compared to G&Ks where wrecking a economy was more difficult without taking the enemies high currency cities.
 
I think it just took the main focus off of warmongering and made it a multifaceted game like it should be.

I feel civilization needs the multiple victory types and strategies completing with each other on the most fair ground they can manage to be it's strongest.

There is actually a lot of nice buffs for warmonger types but there is also a bunch of new stuff you will need to look out for.
 
Vidszhite said:
Cripple? Hardly. My most successful BNW games have been Autocracy warmonger since ancient era. The science penalty penalizes unhappiness more than conquest and expansion, because as long as you grow your cities, they make more science than the penalty inflicts, which is only like 2%.

Standing army penalty can fail if there are other warmongers, especially if you didn't neglect city states. What BNW penalizes is pure warmonger at the expense of all other things: no CS, no culture, no trade routes, no caring about diplomacy. You have to take more things into account before warmongering, but the actual wars can bring you great wealth.
Click to expand...

I still didn't have any conquest victory in BNW, after trying Shaka and Ashurbanipal. I was winning, to be honest, but found those games boring, because my soldiers would often sit there doing nothing for several turns while I waited to complete some happiness buildings or to earn enough money to court one city-state.
 
oPunchDrunko said:
I don't have the EP, but when I get it ill start with either Prince or King.
Click to expand...

In my last Immortal game I had war from pretty much start to end. I kept completing CS quests so World Congress couldn't hurt me. Science was fine despite adding cities, was able to become tech leader even though I had full Liberty, full Commerce and two in Piety before opening Rationalism (Poland!). War-mongering works fine at least up to Immortal for me.
 
If you are warmonger, you'll get diplo hit. but there are very aggressive factions such as Huns, Mongols, assyrians, aztecs etc. anyway, if you play and like vanilla, you'll probably love G&K and BNW.
 
HerrDoktor said:
I still didn't have any conquest victory in BNW, after trying Shaka and Ashurbanipal. I was winning, to be honest, but found those games boring, because my soldiers would often sit there doing nothing for several turns while I waited to complete some happiness buildings or to earn enough money to court one city-state.
Click to expand...

I actually hate Ashurbanipal, I could never take full advantage of his UA without falling behind elsewhere.
 
I think the biggest problem is not the World Congress, but the way Warmonger rating is calculated. Taking out one civ - even if they attacked you - can easily earn you Warmonger hate for many hundreds of turns, essentially entire game. That's pretty frustrating and doesn't seem well balanced.
 
Securion said:
People who call Civilization a "wargame" have obviously never heard of, and even less likely played, Total War. Thats a Wargame. A real wargame. With military strategy and tactics unrivalled in the genre. As a military historian and analyst im mightily impressed with the realism and detail in Total War! If you can lead troops in total War, you could, theoretically, lead troops on a real battlefield. Compare that to Civilization if you dare and then call Civilization a wargame. Its an insult to wargames...

Civilization is about building a civilization (that stands the test of time...) and management of resources. Wars happen yes, but it doesn't even pretend to be a wargame. Its a relaxed game with a little bit of everything, and its very fun to play. Maybe a bit dumbed down with Civ 5 but the genre is highly successful and will hopefully live forever as a "Build a civilization"-game that will keep us entertained for many years to come.
Click to expand...

Go back and read my original post and tell me where I said CIV V was a wargame.
 
kaspergm said:
I think the biggest problem is not the World Congress, but the way Warmonger rating is calculated. Taking out one civ - even if they attacked you - can easily earn you Warmonger hate for many hundreds of turns, essentially entire game. That's pretty frustrating and doesn't seem well balanced.
Click to expand...

This is true. Warmonger hate needs to decay faster than it currently does. For Pete's sake, it takes 200 turns to get rid of the penalty you incurred for just one declaration of war. That's like two whole eras on standard speed.
 
Securion said:
People who call Civilization a "wargame" have obviously never heard of, and even less likely played, Total War. Thats a Wargame. A real wargame. With military strategy and tactics unrivalled in the genre. As a military historian and analyst im mightily impressed with the realism and detail in Total War! If you can lead troops in total War, you could, theoretically, lead troops on a real battlefield. Compare that to Civilization if you dare and then call Civilization a wargame. Its an insult to wargames...
Click to expand...

Kind of off topic, but every legit historical study enthusiasts I've seen cringe at the level of realism/authenticity of TW games... I suppose it's more realistic than say, Warcraft series. But on its own it's pretty atrocious. It's so atrocious that your view of TW games, IMO is hurting your position as "military historian/analyst".
 
BNW has both pros and cons for warmongers. Mostly the latter, though.

+ Lots of gold available from trade route plundering
+ Internal trade routes allow for fast unit production and good growth by pumping food and production to or from conquered cities
+ Reduced SP cost penalty for large amount of cities and stealing of great works make them earn policies at a decent pace
+ Grabbing land through conquest also yields archaeological treasures
+ The late-game XCOM Squad unit makes domination victory easier for technologically advanced tyrants

- Trade routes are the best way to make money, but make you dependent on the peoples you would conquer
- Reduced gold yields make fielding an army challenging early on
- Impact of unhappiness is far worse now
- Each city, even puppets, increase technology costs so more care is needed in developing the conquered lands
- Less happiness available in the early game
- AI hates warmongering more than ever, resulting in...
- Standing army tax and embargo coming your way
 
Gaizokubanou said:
Kind of off topic, but every legit historical study enthusiasts I've seen cringe at the level of realism/authenticity of TW games... I suppose it's more realistic than say, Warcraft series. But on its own it's pretty atrocious. It's so atrocious that your view of TW games, IMO is hurting your position as "military historian/analyst".
Click to expand...

Agreed.

Now, Europa Barbarorum for Rome: Total War... But then, that was made by a group of disgruntled history nerds.

REALLY fun though, I love playing Carthage. Wish they were better in this, I'm something of a Hannibal Barca fanboy. He's a fascinating figure.
 
Securion said:
People who call Civilization a "wargame" have obviously never heard of, and even less likely played, Total War. Thats a Wargame. A real wargame. With military strategy and tactics unrivalled in the genre. As a military historian and analyst im mightily impressed with the realism and detail in Total War! If you can lead troops in total War, you could, theoretically, lead troops on a real battlefield. Compare that to Civilization if you dare and then call Civilization a wargame. Its an insult to wargames...

Civilization is about building a civilization (that stands the test of time...) and management of resources. Wars happen yes, but it doesn't even pretend to be a wargame. Its a relaxed game with a little bit of everything, and its very fun to play. Maybe a bit dumbed down with Civ 5 but the genre is highly successful and will hopefully live forever as a "Build a civilization"-game that will keep us entertained for many years to come.
Click to expand...

I'll bet you are looking forward to Rome II...

Marc
 
Securion said:
If you can lead troops in total War, you could, theoretically, lead troops on a real battlefield. Compare that to Civilization if you dare and then call Civilization a wargame. Its an insult to wargames...
Click to expand...

May I add that it is also an insult to Civilization?
 
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