Yeah, I just had a look and I share your concern. I think that some more brainstorming is needed anyway before we take any action. Also, I still want to understand why on very same conditions vassals break away when autoplaying but not when playing for real.
Small changes could be made though, like the ability for a master to release a vassal, the ability to give any city to a vassal, regardless of the city being flagged as liberatable or not, and the ability to build improvements in their territory.
Small changes could be made though, like the ability for a master to release a vassal, the ability to give any city to a vassal, regardless of the city being flagged as liberatable or not, and the ability to build improvements in their territory.
This is a reason why I was thinking about different types of vassals, because what you're proposing doesn't fit very well to medieval kind of vassals. On the contrary, it could fit very well on different kind of client states.
There is a concern for Conquest victory. I always have that one on for my victory condition. I want vassals system to be more era-specific like you do but want to be able to maintain my victory over other civs until the last civ falls before me. So how about tweaking names and slightly adapting current rules to make it harder to maintain vassals in later eras? That way, in later eras I will need to work harder to keep my vassals under my rule while continuing conquering the world?
Yeah, I just had a look and I share your concern. I think that some more brainstorming is needed anyway before we take any action. Also, I still want to understand why on very same conditions vassals break away when autoplaying but not when playing for real
I agree that it could be rather complex to fully implement a vassal overhaul. Perhaps, in the interest of maintaining the current stability and balance of AND, the vassal project will have to become its own entity, based on AND. But definitely more brainstorming and fixes to current bugs need to come first.
In my current game i have vassal that i am crushing by cultural Level so i have situation where his cities are surrounded by plots culturally owned by me where above 50% citizens are romans (i play a rome)
My vassal have big troubles with those cities because every few turn he have roman revolts and starvatio.
Why i cant ask him to give me control over those cities? Or why those cities cant flip peacefuly to my civ?
They actually can flip to you, it depends if your vassal wants to release them. Or, if you're using Revolution, they might rebel to your vassal and you might end up with a new city but you'll be at war with your vassal (which won't be your vassal anymore). It happens, I've tested it.
Does the game include situation where yoy have 3 or more vassals where each of them is too weak to declare independance but they all together can in secret conspiracy against the master and all of them will declare a war and independance.
Does the game include situation where yoy have 3 or more vassals where each of them is too weak to declare independance but they all together can in secret conspiracy against the master and all of them will declare a war and independance.
No, there's no such situation and I don't think coding it is worth the effort. I'd prefer first to make vassals work as they're supposed to. For example I've never ever seen a capitulated vassal (to a human player) break away even after reaching requirements, nor have I seen any vassal (even "peaceful" ones, i.e. colonies) break away from a human master. Making that work would be a good addition.
I'm resurrecting this very old thread because there's still something in my mind about vassals. Setting aside for the moment the client state mod, I plan to change the term vassal after renaissance. What do you think might work? I suggest that voluntary vassals become Satellite States and Capitulated Vassals become Puppet States. Only names would be different, at least for the moment, starting from Industrial Era.
Me too, but it sounds like a middle way. Protectorate implies a military protection which not necessarily is required by a voluntary vassal. And IMO it doesn't fit for Capitulated Vassals as good as Puppet State. On the contrary Satellite State is a good term for both voluntary vassals requiring military protection and others who are stronger but are interested in some kind of alliance for their own reasons. Although I admit that usually AI civs ask to become vassals mainly for military protection.
The problem I have with Vassals in their current implementation (this dates back to vanilla Civ so no fault of the mod) is this - imagine the following scenario:
1) You are allied with nation X (which is not a vassal)
2) Both you and nation X are fighting nation Y
3) Both you and nation X have open borders and you are actively in nations X terriotry fighting nation Y
4) Nation X capitulates to nation Y
5) Nation X immediately declares war on you whilst your troops are still next to his.
The aforementioned reason alone is the why I disable vassals. Its a rotten implementation which is nonsensical and historically unprecedented. Solution: disable immediate declaration of war by a vassal against former allies. In such cases vassals should only adapt their masters policies after a certain amount of given time.
The problem I have with Vassals in their current implementation (this dates back to vanilla Civ so no fault of the mod) is this - imagine the following scenario:
1) You are allied with nation X (which is not a vassal)
2) Both you and nation X are fighting nation Y
3) Both you and nation X have open borders and you are actively in nations X terriotry fighting nation Y
4) Nation X capitulates to nation Y
5) Nation X immediately declares war on you whilst your troops are still next to his.
The aforementioned reason alone is the why I disable vassals. Its a rotten implementation which is nonsensical and historically unprecedented. Solution: disable immediate declaration of war by a vassal against former allies. In such cases vassals should only adapt their masters policies after a certain amount of given time.
If you accept the capitulation of someone whom your ally is fighting, I'm fairly certain that's what's known as betrayal. You can also see that in the Europa Universalis games.
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