G&K Cultural Policy Revamp

kirbdog

King
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Jun 14, 2005
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The ideas in this thead may form the basis of a mod to implement it. The goal is to retain the original flavor of the existing cultural policies, while bringing them up to the level where good players consider them all viable for certain goals. A tree like the current Tradition, Liberty, Order, or Freedom are more or less baseline, while Rationalism needs a slight nerf, and the other trees require minor to major buffs. This opinion is my own and while it draws on comments I've already read, I want to hear more.

One of the themes in my changes are the existence of small science buffs in every tree after the three ancient ones. The reason for this is that they all have to compete in social policies with Rationalism for the player's attention. I have significantly toned down Planned Economy in Order, however, and slightly nerfed Rationalism also, so it doesn't seem possible to stack all of these benefits for anything too crazy.

Another theme is that there are, overall, more culture-granting policies, as I do think that the policies come just a little bit too slowly later on if you aren't playing for a cultural victory.

Piety gets the biggest buff because it still competes with Rationalism. Autocracy and Honor get large improvements as well. I've also tried to shore up Commerce's left side by providing non-naval bonuses in addition to naval bonuses.

TRADITION
Opener, Aristocracy, Legalism, Landed Elite, and Monarchy: no change.
Oligarchy: Walls grant +1 culture, and cities with a garrison gain +50% Ranged Combat Strength.

LIBERTY
Opener, Citizenship, Collective Rule, and Representation: no change.
Republic: +1 Production in every city, 5% production to buildings, and the hammer cost of circus, colosseum, theater, and stadium reduced by 50%.
Meritocracy: +1 happiness for each city connected to the capital and -10% unhappiness from citizens.

HONOR
Finisher: no change.
Opener: Culture bonus for all units, barbarian or civ. Other bonuses intact.
Warrior Code: +15% production of all land units and a free great general.
Military Tradition: Military Units gain 50% more Experience from combat. Hammer cost of barracks, armory, and military academy reduced by 50%.
Discipline: +15% combat strength for military Units which have another military Unit in an adjacent tile. Allow 8 units to be maintenance free.
Military Caste: +1 Happiness and +1 Culture from barracks, armory, and military academy.
Professional Army: Gold cost of upgrading Military Units reduced by 33% and +1 Local City Happiness from every defensive building (Walls, Castle, Arsenal, Military Base).

PIETY
Opener: Adopting Piety reduces the time to build Shrines and Temples by 50% and provides a 20% discount on all religious buildings and units.
Organized Religion: +1 Happiness from Monuments, Shrines, and Temples.
Theocracy: +2 Faith from Shrines and Temples. Temples increase gold output by 10%.
Mandate of Heaven: 50% of excess Happiness added each turn to the amount of Culture that may be spent on Social Policies. An additional +1 Culture from Ampitheaters, Opera Houses, and Museums.
Religious Tolerance: +2 science from artist specialists and +2 culture from scientist specialists.
Finisher: Holy Sites have +3 culture and +3 gold. Receive a 10% policy discount.

PATRONAGE
Opener, Aesthetics, Scholasticism, Cultural Diplomacy: no change.
Philanthropy: Gifts of Gold to a City-State generate 25% more Influence. Receive a free Great Merchant.
Educated Elite: Allied City-States will occasionally gift you Great People. Faith and culture from city states increased by 25%.
Finisher: Adopting all policies in the Patronage tree will increase the resting point for influence with city states another 15 and make other players' Influence with City-States decrease 33% more per turn than usual.

COMMERCE
Mercantilism, Protectionism, Finisher: no change.
Opener: Adopting Commerce boosts Gold output in the Capital City by 50%.
Naval Tradition: Observatories provide an additional 10% science. +1 movement and +1 sight for naval combat units. A Great Admiral appears. +2 movement for Great Admirals.
Merchant Navy: A Great Merchant appears. +1 gold and +2 production to Workshops, Harbors, and Seaports.
Trade Unions: Maintenance on road/rail reduced by 33%. +1 science from every Trading Post.

RATIONALISM
Opener, Secularism, Humanism, Scientific Revolution, Finisher, Sovereignty: no change.
Free thought: +17% science from Universities.

FREEDOM
Opener, Constitution, Civil Society: no change.
Free Speech: Double yield from great person tiles.
Universal Suffrage: Specialist population produce half unhappiness.
Democracy: Artists produce +1 culture, Scientists produce +1 science, Engineers produce +2 hammers, and Merchants produce +3 gold.
Finisher: Length of golden ages increased by 50%.

AUTOCRACY
Total War: same.
Opener: Receive 10 science and 10 culture as plunder for each citizen in a captured city. Also reduce unit maintenance cost by 33%.
Militarism: Gold cost for purchasing units reduced by 33%. Garrisons are maintenance-free and increase Local City Happiness by 1.
Police State: In addition to all existing benefits of the policy, gain an extra spy.
Populism: Wounded military units deal 25% more damage. Science increased by 1 for every 5 citizens in a city.
Fascism: Quantity of Strategic Resources produced increased by 100%. Railroad production bonus increased 5%. Great Generals have +2 movement.
Finisher: Adopting all Policies in the Autocracy tree will grant a 25% attack bonus to all Military Units for 50 turns and also grants 10 global happiness permanently.

ORDER
Opener, Socialism, Communism: same.
Planned Economy: Factories increase a city's Science output by 10%. Build Factories in half the usual time.
United Front: Militaristic city states grant units twice as often when you are at war with a common foe. 15% attack bonus when fighting in friendly territory.
Nationalism: Monuments produce an additional +1 culture. Theaters, Stadiums, Ampitheaters, and Opera Houses produce an additional +1 Local City Happiness.
 
The problem is, that there will be a complete SoPo overhault with BNW:

- Piety will be changed (completly?).
- Freedom, order, autocracy will be exanged by the new tenet-system
- There will be two new SoPo-trees: Exploration and Aesthetics
- Probaby some unknown changes to the other SoPos to reflect the new game mechanics (commerce-tree!).

All in all, there is no basis to discuss very much, right now: The old SoPos were quite okay and well balanced with no need for an complete revamp, while your proposal doesn't take the new game mechanics into account. :dunno:
 
Vanilla, Gods and Kings, and Brave New World all exist or will exist. This proposal is for Gods and Kings. I'm assuming some people will play Gods and Kings even though Brave New World gets released.
 
On a general approach, I see very good proposals here. I would remove the culture extras for industrial policies. After all are meant to be the dead end on non-cultural victories, but more culture boosts on the intermediate is not a bad approach. Too much religion boosting on piety. Any civ with a religion would get astronomical faith per turn with those buffs, thus winning on the religion founder race. The idea to give some science boosts is great, but I feel happiness as a whole is quite well handled on the original ones.

I woudld largely left most policies untouched, but that is my personal preference of maintaining the original policies as much as possible while balancing them.

Discipline: +15% combat strength for military Units which have another military Unit in an adjacent tile. Allow 8 units to be maintenance free.
I feel the 8 units free is too much for a starter policy. The two units I added to my mod was a nice boost, taking into account how mantenaince is calculated somewhat exponentially.

PIETY
Organized Religion: +1 Happiness from Monuments, Shrines, and Temples.
I don't feel happiness should be added into the mix, piety is tailored for high empires, and to make it up on the long run of investing in it.
I would boost the finisher somewhat. Maybe increasing the culture cut to 15%.

PATRONAGE
Finisher: Adopting all policies in the Patronage tree will increase the resting point for influence with city states another 15 and make other players' Influence with City-States decrease 33% more per turn than usual.
This along with papal primacy and pledge to protect, would give you a 60 resting point. I find the high resting points overpowered, with a mission here and there you have allies forever, without using any gold.

Naval Tradition: Observatories provide an additional 10% science. +1 movement and +1 sight for naval combat units. A Great Admiral appears. +2 movement for Great Admirals.
Science for obserbatories? that's to random for me. I would select a gold building, bank for example.

Merchant Navy: A Great Merchant appears. +1 gold and +2 production to Workshops, Harbors, and Seaports.
IMO, too much of a production boost.

Trade Unions: Maintenance on road/rail reduced by 33%. +1 science from every Trading Post.
Maybe overpowered! :p

RATIONALISM
Opener, Secularism, Humanism, Scientific Revolution, Finisher, Sovereignty: no change.
Free thought: +17% science from Universities.
Well, you are adding science here and there, rationalism as it is would be a marginal choice only for science victories.

FREEDOM
Democracy: Artists produce +1 culture, Scientists produce +1 science, Engineers produce +2 hammers, and Merchants produce +3 gold.
Yeah, but i wouldn't remove the half food. I find it pretty fitting for the small tall empires searching for turtle victory.

Police State: In addition to all existing benefits of the policy, gain an extra spy.
Yeah, or either upgrading spies rank.

Fascism: Quantity of Strategic Resources produced increased by 100%. Railroad production bonus increased 5%. Great Generals have +2 movement.
Yeah, another boost is nice, as most of the time you already have enough strat resources, is too situational.
Finisher: Adopting all Policies in the Autocracy tree will grant a 25% attack bonus to all Military Units for 50 turns and also grants 10 global happiness permanently.
Fair boost, to just start filling that happiness with puppets :)

Planned Economy: Factories increase a city's Science output by 10%. Build Factories in half the usual time.
I would aim for 15%.
 
On a general approach, I see very good proposals here.
Thanks. And thanks for your comments.

I would remove the culture extras for industrial policies.
I almost never complete an industrial policy tree unless my game goes very, very much over 300 turns or I'm doing culture. I find that disappointing and so wanted some extra culture in Order. Autocracy and Freedom already had some culture boosters, but Freedom got a little extra in my suggestion, when taking out the defensive boosts.

I also felt it a bit appropriate to boost monuments under Order/Nationalism.

Too much religion boosting on piety. Any civ with a religion would get astronomical faith per turn with those buffs, thus winning on the religion founder race.
I agree and disagree. I agree that non-piety civs will get overwhelmed faith-wise. But I disagree that this would be unbalanced overall. Rationalism's 15% and 17% science boosts, which actually comes out closer to 40-50% total with 3 policies given the opener's multiplicative nature, means that Piety needs something overpowered too. This is the kind of situation where King Kong needs to meet Godzilla. So I thought, how about faith? I did move it in deeper to help allow others a chance of founding religions.

With some of the overpowered faith-generating beliefs currently in the game, this isn't actually that OP anyway, by comparison, since you can get the benefit of massive faith points without locking out rationalism if you get lucky with terrain... piety at least has that opportunity cost. Nevertheless, it might be better if toned down to doubling the faith yields of the shrine and temple, instead (turn 3 into 6 not 7), just as things like desert folklore need to be dialed down.

The idea to give some science boosts is great, but I feel happiness as a whole is quite well handled on the original ones.

...

I don't feel happiness should be added into the mix, piety is tailored for high empires, and to make it up on the long run of investing in it.

Piety is actually a bit schizophrenic. Mandate of Heaven, Reformation, and the policy discount do suggest going small, tall, and cultural. The rest of it - cheaper religious buildings, more faith to them, temple gold - and religion itself, recommends wide.

The way I chose to handle this is to make the left side good for wide (building and religious item discounts, happiness buffs, faith buffs, gold buff) and to make the whole tree good for cultural types. (The game itself basically does this but without offering enough to recommend it over rationalism.)

I feel the 8 units free is too much for a starter policy. The two units I added to my mod was a nice boost, taking into account how mantenaince is calculated somewhat exponentially.

You're probably right. I lifted this from Freedom. Maybe 2, 4, or 6 is better. But early on, the gold per turn on 8 units still just barely competes with tradition's gold, so I am not sure it's unbalanced given the alternatives. But it could very well be moved in deeper to reduce the value of cherry picking discipline from honor.

I would boost the finisher somewhat. Maybe increasing the culture cut to 15%.

I think it would be entertaining to give back the free policy for completing the tree.

This along with papal primacy and pledge to protect, would give you a 60 resting point. I find the high resting points overpowered, with a mission here and there you have allies forever, without using any gold.
This was actually the intention, as an idea for making papal primacy worthwhile. Another idea is to swap places with aesthetics: make aesthetics give you 15 more resting point and make the finisher give you 20 more. You do still lose allies if others get more than 60. But yeah, it might be too much.

Even if 20+15 is too much, I'd like to see at least a total +30 at least for completing patronage. AI love to complete trees and apparently don't know the full power of pledge to protect and aesthetics.

Maybe 10+20 or 15+15 is the right mix. Makes Aesthetics + Papal Primacy + Pledge give friendship, while also making Aesthetics + Finisher give Friendship.

Science for obserbatories? that's to random for me.
I chose it because it made sense to me. Naval Tradition... navies used the stars to guide their way... observatories look at the stars.

IMO, too much of a production boost.

It's +1 over the original for coastal and an extra +2 everywhere to make it good for non-coastal cities, if you have the buildings. I didn't like that the original didn't reward non-water maps. It also requires 3 deep in the left side of commerce, which rarely recommends itself over other strategies. The idea is to make several different trees very nice (along the lines of trad/lib/rat/order/freedom) and make the player's heart ache over which to pursue.

It could of course be toned down, even halved, but at half it'd be weaker than the original on water maps because the original had no building requirements. Perhaps removing the Seaport is the right mix: +2 everywhere with workshop, +2 coastal with harbor.

Well, you are adding science here and there, rationalism as it is would be a marginal choice only for science victories.

I disagree. Rationalism is mostly untouched and still has the bite it used to. Rationalism civs would still out-tech other civs by a very large margin with the same population/building base. The Rationalism player also has the option of playing "gotta catch em all" with the science boosts in the industrial trees and commerce or patronage, with a much larger investment into culture or by forsaking the finisher. What has been really nerfed is Order as the only way to science.

The sprinkling is there to make people consider alternatives to full Rationalism and to give Piety players tools for closing some but not all of the science gap.

Yeah, but i wouldn't remove the half food.

It's there I just didn't mention it other than to say the policy is not changed.

I would aim for 15%.

This number has been jangling about in my head too. I like it. I think it would go some of the way to prevent a lot of the pain people would feel over adopting the changes. And since I added a 10% boost to commerce (dependent on observatories not factories), the total boost remains 25%, but with a larger investment required, split across different trees.

Thanks again for your comments. It is much appreciated.
 
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