[Vote] (5-37) Rationalism Reordering

[axatin]

VP Congress: Session 5, Proposal 37

Spoiler Current Rationalism Tree :

Opener:

• +3 Science, +2 Production from all Strategic Resources
• +5% Science, -1 Unhappiness from all Needs in all Cities

Scaler:

• +2% for each Policy

1st left (Scientific Revolution)

• Can build Observatories in all Cities
• +2 Science from Jungle and Snow
• +3% Science from each GW

1st right (Enlightenment)

• Receive 1 Free Technology
• +1 Happiness from Universities
• +10% Science in Golden Ages

2nd left (Empiricism)

• Specialists consume 1 less Food than normal
• Spy Resistance and enemy mission durations increased
• +10% Science in Golden Ages

2nd right (Free Thought)

• +25% Yields of Great Scientists
• -5 Unhappiness from Religious Unrest

3rd left (Empiricism)

• +1 Food per non-specialist Citizen in each City
• +2 Gold, Production from Villages

Finisher:

• Can build Bletchley Park
• -1 Unhappiness from all Needs
• +25% Growth in all Cities
  +33% Great Scientist Rate
• Can purchase Greate Scientists with Faith

Problems with the current Rationalism Tree:

• It's too front-loaded. The good policies (the ones giving Science) are all at the beginning, the later policies are too weak
• In particular, the opener policy with its -1 Unhappiness from all Needs is too strong for an opener. It's often desirable to take it even if not planning to finish Rationalism
• As Rationalism is clearly a science-focused tree, its policies should also give a science bonus

Proposal: Reorder the bonuses of the Rationalism tree

Opener:

• +3 Science, +2 Production from all Strategic Resources
• +5% Science in all Cities

Scaler:

• +2% for each Policy (unchanged)

1st left (Scientific Revolution):

• Can build Observatories in all Cities
• +2 Science from Jungle and Snow

1st right (Enlightenment):

• Receive 1 Free Technology
• +1 Happiness from Universities

2nd left (Rights of Man):

• -1 Unhappiness from all Needs in all Cities
• +2 Gold, Production from Villages
• +10% Science in Golden Ages

2nd right (Free Thought):

• +33% Great Scientist Rate
• +25% Yields of Great Scientists
• -5 Unhappiness from Religious Unrest

3rd left (Empiricism):

• +1 Food per Citizen in each City, +25% Growth in all Cities
• +3% Science in a City from each GW (capped at +20%)

Finisher:

• Can build Bletchley Park
• -1 Unhappiness from all Needs
• Spy Resistance and enemy spy mission durations increased
• Can purchase Great Scientists with Faith

Spoiler Details/Comments :

• The opener loses -1 Unhappiness from Needs which is too strong for an opener policy.
• Three science bonuses for Scientific Revolution are too much, the policy loses one of them.
• Enlightenment gives a free technology, so it doesn't need +10% in golden ages as a second science bonus either.
• The science bonus in golden ages, the reduced unhappiness and the bonus to villages are given to the second left policy themed "Rights of Man".
• Free thought already has +25% Yields of Great Scientists, it also gets +33% Great Scientist Rate from the finisher. The policy now has a clear focus on Great Scientists
• The third policy on the left, Empiricism, combines all the growth bonuses, and it also has one of the science bonuses taken from Scientific Revolution. The growth bonuses are simplified to "+1 Food per Citizen" (a slight buff). An earlier policy has reduced unhappiness from needs, the growth bonus here can now make use of it.
• The finisher gets the Spy bonuses, which become relevant only quite late in the game. It keeps the second -1 Unhappiness from all Needs which helps increasing growth further.

All in all, some science bonuses and the first unhappiness reduction are moved backwards. The village bonus and the scientist generation bonus are moved forward, and the growth bonus is slightly buffed. The changes shouldn't affect the total value of the tree too much.

 

[Recursive]

@axatin Why isn't the scaler mentioned? I feel like that's relevant if the entire tree is being analyzed.

 

[axatin]

@axatin Why isn't the scaler mentioned? I feel like that's relevant if the entire tree is being analyzed.

You're right, I've added it.

 

[pineappledan]

Proposal:
The scaler is weak and rights of man is powerful could move the 10% GA onto the scaler:

Remove 10% sci during GA from rights of man.
Add “effect is increased to 4% per level during Golden ages”
Or “Doubled to 4% per level during Golden Ages” to scaler.”

Combines one of the % modifiers so rationalism appears less bloated with the same bonus Without actually removing anything.

 

[axatin]

Remove 10% sci during GA from rights of man.
Add “effect is increased to 4% per level during Golden ages”
Or “Doubled to 4% per level during Golden Ages” to scaler.”

I think that would make it less intuitive, and people would forget about the bonus more easily. With three bullet points with rather short text, I wouldn't say Rights of Man is too bloated.

 

[Stalker0]

Just confirming, right now there is no cap to the GW bonus (and there is in core rationalism). Oversight or intended?

 

[axatin]

Just confirming, right now there is no cap to the GW bonus (and there is in core rationalism). Oversight or intended?

The cap should be there, I had forgotten to mention it. Proposal text changed.

 

[Stalker0]

My only possible beef with this change is that it feels EVEN MORE GS focused than the tree is already, in that core science has been pushed back (especially the GW one, that comes much later and is a pretty sizable amount of science generation for a Tall civ). But then the +33% GS benefit is bumped up, so a rationalims player might squeeze out 1 more GS....maaaaaaybe 2 (I feel like 1 is more likely though as costs do start to get quite high at this point).

 

[pineappledan]

With three bullet points with rather short text, I wouldn't say Rights of Man is too bloated

I’m not saying Rights of Man is too bloated. I’m saying the Entire Tree feels bloated with the same % bonus over and over:
% bonus On the opener
% bonus On the scaler
% bonus During Golden Age on rights of man
% bonus Per GW on empiricism

Also, with respect to theme and flavor, giving a bonus per great work to a policy called “empiricism” is super gross. That’s the literal opposite of what that means. The entire idea behind empirical evidence and the scientific approach was that we had to reassess the inherited wisdom of the ancients and discard the old works as superstition.

Could at least reshuffle the names a little to get rid of that overt middle finger to the concept of empiricism. Maybe swap ‘Empiricism’ and ‘Enlightenment’ names but keep the bonuses where they are?

 

[ma_kuh]

I can see the theme as coming from the idea of taking the old wisdom (captured in the great works) and using it to drive new learning. So yes you're discarding the old wisdom as you test it, but the act of following through on the test is what's generating science.

But clearly the real mechanic should be that it destroys all of your great works and converts them into new Great Scientists. /s

Actually... can Great Person points be subtracted? Like could you have the policy be -2 GWAM points from GWAM specialists, +2 GS points from GWAM specialists? So the idea is that in your society, even your culture aficionados are scientists.

 

[axatin]

I sponsor this.