If you saw a screenshot of one of Moonsinger's Civ3 games you'd be saying "Isn't 500 cities enough already?"Zombie69 said:I love how in the screenshot, Rome is building a settler. Isn't 60 cities enough already?
Deity Introduction Guide for Julius Ceasar
- Thread starter Moonsinger
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- Oct 5, 2001
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@Moonsinger: We're banning this for the GOTM (call us the 'fun police' 
) Anyway - bradleyfeanor suggested that we run our proposed wording past you:
Do you think this covers it well enough?
Anarchy Exploit: You may not use perpetual anarchy as a means to avoid losing units due to maintenance costs. A guideline is that if you have no gold and negative income, you must wait 4 turns after your anarchy ends before you can revolt again.
) Anyway - bradleyfeanor suggested that we run our proposed wording past you:Do you think this covers it well enough?
Anarchy Exploit: You may not use perpetual anarchy as a means to avoid losing units due to maintenance costs. A guideline is that if you have no gold and negative income, you must wait 4 turns after your anarchy ends before you can revolt again.
Playing with Barbarians turned on is a totally different game.
On Diety games I regularly kill TEN barbarian units for each AI enemy unit. They are a huge pain and will sometimes gang up on your cities with three or four units. They also blow up improvements and cut my roads.
I play on regular settings with the standard nine random opponents at regular speed an on a HUGE continental map. I've won about three different games back on the 1.09 release. Just installed the 1.52 patch yesterday after all the holiday hustle.
Incans are my choice civ.
You start with a Quecha Unit.
Financial helps with the per turn deficits.
Aggressive is good for beating down AIs.
I restart the game if I don't get an ideal map.
I look for three things.
1. A nice long river to expand my trade network.
2. A nearby goodie hut which will give me a scout.
3. A nearby stone quarry to help with Stonehenge and Pyramids.
Build order in my capital city is usually worker, worker, barricks, quecha, quecha, quecha, quecha, library, settler.
For captured cities my build order is always barricks, quecha, quecha, quecha, etc..
Research order is mining, bronzeworking, wheel, masonry, animal husbandry, writing, alphabet, mathematics, currency.
Usually I can find a couple key techs using a scout to reduce the number of techs on the way to currency.
Bronzeworking is needed for forest chopping.
Wheel helps move your troops around faster and connecting a stone quarry.
Masonry is for helping build stonehenge and pyramids.
Writing is needed for libraries when you get Representation with pyramids. 6 science vials per specialist.
Currency is needed to deal with the crazy budget deficits that will bankrupt you if you can't get currency fast enough.
The two biggest problems I have on my Diety games are Barbarians and Spending.
Barbarians force you to produce a bunch of troops to defend your cities. This is really annoying especially after you conquer new cities and have to wait for new support troops to arrive to garrison the city before you can move your experienced city attackers. Barbarians will pop up anywhere there is fog of war. They even build cities left and right. I had a 4x5 unoccupied space between five cities and barbs decided to found a city right in the middle of my civ. I ended up putting Quecha warriors on forested hill tiles outside my city perimeters to reduce fog of war. This worked much better than providing individual worker escorts for chopping down trees.
Running out of money and having your troops start to disband can turn your perfect game into a house a cards within a couple turns. Once I get Masonry and Writing I dial back on science spending and try to get workers to chop out Pyramids. Once I have pyramids I switch to representation and use scientists to generate science while setting the slider to 0% science. I need to use the slider to generate as much income per turn just to support the number of cities in my CIV. Switching all my cities to generate commerce is key as well. Using workers to build commerce improvements like gold mines or farms on commerce squares helps. Cottages take too long to develop, plus you have no science to spare for pottery until you get to currency. Getting currency solves all your problems. Building markets generate 25% more commerce, plus you can turn hammers into commerce. Sometimes I'll resort to pillaging enemy AI improvements if it doesn't look like I'm going to have enough coin to get to currency.
I start as many wars as I can handle and never build settlers until I can get currency. The extra undevelloped cities would just crimp my economy. Expanding with settlers is slower than just building troops and conquering.
I'll usually send out my starting Quecha to take out ONE AI Civ by himself. Having a promoted scout with a medic promotions helps a lot too in enemy territory. The starting civs usually only have two archers in each city.
Within 25 turns I should own three cities. My capital and two enemy civ cities.
I turn each city into a troop station and start three seperate wars with each city producing a stream of Quecha for each battle front.
Axemen/Spearmen combos are good once you Quecha start facing other axement and spearmen.
Stacks of Catapults can wreck cities left and right even ones which are garrissoned with crossbow and longbowmen.
I usually beeline to steel/chemistry to upgrade my catapults to cannons and to create grenadiers to keep my conquest rush going.
Religion is a tough sell. I don't pick one so I don't piss any AI civs off by being a heathen. Attacking an AI Civ which isn't like by other Civs doesn't create any relationship penalities either so it's better to have the AIs pick religions and let them fight it out sometimes. I usually end up with half of the relgions early on just by conqueries holy cities. Getting stonehenge means you can get a Great Prophet to build a holy shrine. A holy shrine will generate commerce per turn even if you don't pick a state religion. Two holy shrines in two different cities is better than one holy shrine and state religion.
I think I'll give the Romans a shot next. Organized is a lot more useful I think than Financial if you are rushing. Praetorians are a lot more expensive and come a lot later, but should be able to survive more. I lose a ton of cheap Quecha bum rushing cities.
On Diety games I regularly kill TEN barbarian units for each AI enemy unit. They are a huge pain and will sometimes gang up on your cities with three or four units. They also blow up improvements and cut my roads.
I play on regular settings with the standard nine random opponents at regular speed an on a HUGE continental map. I've won about three different games back on the 1.09 release. Just installed the 1.52 patch yesterday after all the holiday hustle.
Incans are my choice civ.
You start with a Quecha Unit.
Financial helps with the per turn deficits.
Aggressive is good for beating down AIs.
I restart the game if I don't get an ideal map.
I look for three things.
1. A nice long river to expand my trade network.
2. A nearby goodie hut which will give me a scout.
3. A nearby stone quarry to help with Stonehenge and Pyramids.
Build order in my capital city is usually worker, worker, barricks, quecha, quecha, quecha, quecha, library, settler.
For captured cities my build order is always barricks, quecha, quecha, quecha, etc..
Research order is mining, bronzeworking, wheel, masonry, animal husbandry, writing, alphabet, mathematics, currency.
Usually I can find a couple key techs using a scout to reduce the number of techs on the way to currency.
Bronzeworking is needed for forest chopping.
Wheel helps move your troops around faster and connecting a stone quarry.
Masonry is for helping build stonehenge and pyramids.
Writing is needed for libraries when you get Representation with pyramids. 6 science vials per specialist.
Currency is needed to deal with the crazy budget deficits that will bankrupt you if you can't get currency fast enough.
The two biggest problems I have on my Diety games are Barbarians and Spending.
Barbarians force you to produce a bunch of troops to defend your cities. This is really annoying especially after you conquer new cities and have to wait for new support troops to arrive to garrison the city before you can move your experienced city attackers. Barbarians will pop up anywhere there is fog of war. They even build cities left and right. I had a 4x5 unoccupied space between five cities and barbs decided to found a city right in the middle of my civ. I ended up putting Quecha warriors on forested hill tiles outside my city perimeters to reduce fog of war. This worked much better than providing individual worker escorts for chopping down trees.
Running out of money and having your troops start to disband can turn your perfect game into a house a cards within a couple turns. Once I get Masonry and Writing I dial back on science spending and try to get workers to chop out Pyramids. Once I have pyramids I switch to representation and use scientists to generate science while setting the slider to 0% science. I need to use the slider to generate as much income per turn just to support the number of cities in my CIV. Switching all my cities to generate commerce is key as well. Using workers to build commerce improvements like gold mines or farms on commerce squares helps. Cottages take too long to develop, plus you have no science to spare for pottery until you get to currency. Getting currency solves all your problems. Building markets generate 25% more commerce, plus you can turn hammers into commerce. Sometimes I'll resort to pillaging enemy AI improvements if it doesn't look like I'm going to have enough coin to get to currency.
I start as many wars as I can handle and never build settlers until I can get currency. The extra undevelloped cities would just crimp my economy. Expanding with settlers is slower than just building troops and conquering.
I'll usually send out my starting Quecha to take out ONE AI Civ by himself. Having a promoted scout with a medic promotions helps a lot too in enemy territory. The starting civs usually only have two archers in each city.
Within 25 turns I should own three cities. My capital and two enemy civ cities.
I turn each city into a troop station and start three seperate wars with each city producing a stream of Quecha for each battle front.
Axemen/Spearmen combos are good once you Quecha start facing other axement and spearmen.
Stacks of Catapults can wreck cities left and right even ones which are garrissoned with crossbow and longbowmen.
I usually beeline to steel/chemistry to upgrade my catapults to cannons and to create grenadiers to keep my conquest rush going.
Religion is a tough sell. I don't pick one so I don't piss any AI civs off by being a heathen. Attacking an AI Civ which isn't like by other Civs doesn't create any relationship penalities either so it's better to have the AIs pick religions and let them fight it out sometimes. I usually end up with half of the relgions early on just by conqueries holy cities. Getting stonehenge means you can get a Great Prophet to build a holy shrine. A holy shrine will generate commerce per turn even if you don't pick a state religion. Two holy shrines in two different cities is better than one holy shrine and state religion.
I think I'll give the Romans a shot next. Organized is a lot more useful I think than Financial if you are rushing. Praetorians are a lot more expensive and come a lot later, but should be able to survive more. I lose a ton of cheap Quecha bum rushing cities.
DaviddesJ
Deity
Ungar said:
You have to get pretty lucky to get a scout. Usually you get cash, or hostile barbs. Do you just abandon those games and start over?
Ungar said:
This seems like it would require extraordinarily good luck. I find that I rarely get techs from huts. And you aren't going to find many huts before the AI with so many units on the map.
If you're restarting every game when you don't get such good luck, it seems like a whole lot of restarts. Why not just play at a lower difficulty but not restart?
ainwood said:@Moonsinger: We're banning this for the GOTM (call us the 'fun police'
Do you think this covers it well enough?
Anarchy Exploit: You may not use perpetual anarchy as a means to avoid losing units due to maintenance costs. A guideline is that if you have no gold and negative income, you must wait 4 turns after your anarchy ends before you can revolt again.
Ban already?
Why? Hopefully, they are not banning for the HOF.
I really don't think this banning is fair. The only reason I don't raze those cities is because of my personal belief. Otherwise, I can just use the same technique, but raze everything on my path. In the end, I would still be beating the Deity level and win by Conquests. Anyway, are you going to ban razing cities too? 
The only exploit I see here is over-chopping the forests, since the AI doesn't really chop that much.
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2001
- Messages
- 30,085
We are banning it because it appears to be a very powerful exploit - essentially its circumventing the main game mechanic that restricts growth.Moonsinger said:Ban already?
If you want to use this in the GOTM (if we can lure you back to the GOTM - you never got an eptathlon award in the Civ3 version, BTW
), then fine - just raze the cities, and keep yourself from a negative income - in which case, its no longer really an exploit.
DaviddesJ
Deity
It's obviously a bug that you can avoid the forced disband by staying in perpetual anarchy, and hopefully they will fix it in the next patch. I think they should count the number of turns until you can enter anarchy again from the end of the previous anarchy, instead of the beginning of the previous anarchy. (I thought this was how it actually worked, until this thread, never having tried it myself.)
If you can really achieve the same result without exploiting this bug, then, the ban should not bother you much. But if you raze most of the cities, then, at least, your score will be much lower.
If you can really achieve the same result without exploiting this bug, then, the ban should not bother you much. But if you raze most of the cities, then, at least, your score will be much lower.
ainwood said:We are banning it because it appears to be a very powerful exploit - essentially its circumventing the main game mechanic that restricts growth.
If you want to use this in the GOTM (if we can lure you back to the GOTM - you never got an eptathlon award in the Civ3 version, BTW
Actually, I do understand why you want to ban it in the GOTM. Otherwise, many people will just shoot for fast domination victory because that seems like a best way to ensure a really high score. I'm really not banking too much on this tactic. Launching a spaceship in the end has always been my style.
mutax2003 said:
You can just use the same tactic, but allow city razing. Just reduce the AI to one city and milk them for tech. If they rebuild, destroy them again. That should keep them busy producing settler forever.
Zombie69 said:
You can always chop any forest from far far away and outside your boundary; your nearest city from that forest will get its shields/hammers. I think there may be a distant limit, but I haven't yet run into that limitation yet.
Zombie69
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2005
- Messages
- 1,902
You get less hammers the further you are from the city. It goes down really fast. You can see the graph in another article in this forum.
As for milking techs, that doesn't work so well in Civ4. The AI is quite stingy now and sometimes would rather be assimilited than give up anything.
As for milking techs, that doesn't work so well in Civ4. The AI is quite stingy now and sometimes would rather be assimilited than give up anything.
Moonsinger said:Ban already?
Well its the beta HOF, and I expect this exploit to be promptly corrected in the next patch so will in essense be disallowed because it will no longer exist in the Final and All Powerful Non-beta HOF. (The final HOF name is just a guess.)
Praetorians tramp the barren hills,
No trees, the vales and meadows, fill;
Woodsmen working dark to dawn
An endless stream of legions spawn;
Pilum thrown and sword in hand
Against her might, no armies stand;
Always forward, never back,
Take the city, never sack;
Despair at home tells the story
Of Moonsinger's skill and conquest glory.
Awesome strategy
No trees, the vales and meadows, fill;
Woodsmen working dark to dawn
An endless stream of legions spawn;
Pilum thrown and sword in hand
Against her might, no armies stand;
Always forward, never back,
Take the city, never sack;
Despair at home tells the story
Of Moonsinger's skill and conquest glory.
Awesome strategy
Mr. Pointless
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2005
- Messages
- 23
Birdjaguar said:
Nice poem
Even if this is an exploit ( I think it is ) it is nice to know that an strategy that you can use to win on diety.
Shabbaman
rebuffing the rebels
Moonsinger said:
So extending the number of turns required for a next revolution on slower game speeds would kill this strategy?
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