Switching ideologies?

Current game was going quite well on Emperor. I managed to be the first to an ideology. It was to be either Freedom or Order. I went with Freedom. I figured that since Denmark-Norway (mod) and Netherlands were seemingly going culture heavy, they might join me. We were already in DoF as well. The other continent went Order and my pals shock me by going Autocracy. So I am the only Freedom civ. My unhappiness is now -18. It was +10 only a few turns before, but The Sioux are gobbling up civs on the other continent and we are hostile, so I lost some luxuries. I am at war with the Sioux and am not sure I have the time to whittle the level down, though I am trying to do so with certain buildings. Should I consider a change? It would hurt as I have a LOT invested in Freedom. I really do not want to do that. Have any of you been forced to? I am getting something like -31 unhappiness at the moment from ideology.

I've been forced to numerous times, and it usually ends poorly. I had to switch multiple times in the same game recently, and realized that you can still get negative happiness from pressure after switching which was a PITA.

The higher you go in difficulty, the more ideological pressure you'll face, and it becomes really important to keep culture up throughout the game, and sometimes just get lucky by picking the same ideology as someone that's very influential over you.

How many tenets have you already adopted in Freedom? Have you already adopted the happiness tenets? Freedom has a lot of happiness tenets so those can help offset the ideological pressure.

What will you loose?

2 Turns of production and science, due to the chaos during the switchover.


You will probably loose the two free "early adopter" policies in your ideology tree, because you were the first to pick Freedom, but you won't be the first adopter of the new ideology. You'll be down to one early adopter tenet or more likely , none at all. However, any tenets purchased with culture in the usual way, simply get refunded so you can spend them again in your new ideology.

So for example you have 5 tenets in Freedom, 2 of which were free early adopter ones, and switch to Order, you'll have 3 tenets to spend in Order after making the switch.

For avoiding unhappiness and to have good relations with your immediate neighbours, it's probably worth it.

I have a question of my own though. If you've built the Statue of Liberty, do it's buffs still apply after changing Ideology? I mean the building doesn't magically disappear or anything?

freedom has considerable happiness depending on the amount of national wonders up (I assume you have all guilds, NC, EIC, Ironworks etc) and the amount of specialists running in cities, but not as much as order imo. Just keep in mind that switching to a more favorable ideology doesn't mean that you would erase all pressure, because going autocracy from freedom could also mean you get pressure from order civs.

As far as I know, pumping pure tourism won't exactly help with ideology pressure, it also depends on your culture, trade routes, open borders, diplomats. Be assured that the AI is always going to choose a differing ideology regardless of relationship just for free tenets.

If you're going for dom victory, happiness isn't too bad as long as you're positive.

b7fanatix said:

What will you loose?

2 Turns of production and science, due to the chaos during the switchover.


You will probably loose the two free "early adopter" policies in your ideology tree, because you were the first to pick Freedom, but you won't be the first adopter of the new ideology. You'll be down to one early adopter tenet or more likely , none at all. However, any tenets purchased with culture in the usual way, simply get refunded so you can spend them again in your new ideology.

So for example you have 5 tenets in Freedom, 2 of which were free early adopter ones, and switch to Order, you'll have 3 tenets to spend in Order after making the switch.

For avoiding unhappiness and to have good relations with your immediate neighbours, it's probably worth it.

I have a question of my own though. If you've built the Statue of Liberty, do it's buffs still apply after changing Ideology? I mean the building doesn't magically disappear or anything?

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afaik the SoL effects (along with prora, kremlin) still work after ideology change, so it's still quite powerful. Not sure if you still get a free policy if you picked an old ideology tenet though, need to test that out.
Realistically speaking though, I don't think you'll need to switch if you can be early enough to grab the wonder.

10000hours said:

I've been forced to numerous times, and it usually ends poorly. I had to switch multiple times in the same game recently, and realized that you can still get negative happiness from pressure after switching which was a PITA.

The higher you go in difficulty, the more ideological pressure you'll face, and it becomes really important to keep culture up throughout the game, and sometimes just get lucky by picking the same ideology as someone that's very influential over you.

How many tenets have you already adopted in Freedom? Have you already adopted the happiness tenets? Freedom has a lot of happiness tenets so those can help offset the ideological pressure.

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In all my recent games , I've had to switch, but it went well and i won a science victory regardless. As I was focussed on Science, I didn't have the culture to keep up with true powerhouses on Emperor/Immortal level. I did build some guilds though.

The AI tends to prefer Order, which is the best Ideology for Happiness, though will always pick whichever ideology allows it have the max number of early adopter tenets as a first consideration. So, if you pick Order, the #2 Civ in tech is guaranteed to pick something else. If you chose Freedom or Autocracy, they're almost certain to go Order.

I normally start out Freedom, take advantage of the reduced food costs for specialists, and the increased spawn rate for great persons tenets. By the time it comes to switch, I'm not missing those policies so much - my cities are now large enough to run my specialists AND work all the good food tiles, and i've popped so many Great Scientists that the cost of the next ones are exorbitant - probably won't get any more before the game ends anyway.

It's possible i suppose to switch to the Civ's preferred ideology and STILL get pressure causing unhappiness, I've had it happen when i was new to BNW, but not recently. Maybe i've been lucky, maybe i've had a little more culture this time. You can help yourself a little, by only accepting Open Borders from those you share an ideology with. Late game wonders like Neuschwannstein Castle give so much Happiness, as do some of the Order Tenets, I think i'd get by honestly.

b7fanatix said:

You can help yourself a little, by only accepting Open Borders from those you share an ideology with. Late game wonders like Neuschwannstein Castle give so much Happiness, as do some of the Order Tenets, I think i'd get by honestly.

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Ah...you know, you made me think. The big hit with this came as I agreed open borders with many civs...I think I will stick with Freedom, but try to get some of those buildings that give
I have the SoL...sadly Neuschwanstein is not possible bcs I am not close enough to any mountains. I have most of the happiness tenets. Will just try to lower them...it is my biggest issue bcs it really hampers my soldiers and I need to hamstring the Sioux.

I'd consider switching to Order if i was in negative happiness or having to buy many luxuries for cash to stay happy, and if my neighbours , who i wanted to stay on good terms with, were also Order. I wouldn't switch to Autocracy unless i had a very good reason, though i hear it can work with a full Honour/Domination approach.

Order has a lot of easy to reach Happiness -

Level 1 Tenets

Socialist Realism: +2 Happiness from each Monument.
Young Pioneers: +1 Happiness per Workshop, Factory and Solar/Nuclear/Hydro Plant
Universal Healthcare: +1 Happiness from each National Wonder

Level 2 Tenets

Academy of Sciences: +1 Happiness per University, Observatory, Public School and Research Lab

Like i say, you'll loose your 2 free Tenets but any you already have beyond the two freebies, can be respent in the new ideology as soon as you switch.


On Science games I plan to switch, since i will be first to choose but not have enough culture to resist pressure. Ironically, you've more chance of finishing the game with your preferred ideology, if you pick something else first time around, since the leading civs (by extension, those likely to exert the most ideological pressure) will always pick something other than what you chose, to get free tenets.

Of course, in Culture or Domination games, i pick what suits me and to hell with it, the world dances to my tune.

My problem with ideology pressure is that I tend to over-correct, i.e. I throw up a lot of tourism as fast as I can to relieve the pressure, but then I accidentally go on to win CV. I will also try to annihilate a civ who achieved Familiar over me, but gosh those Freedom civs are hard to take out. Courtesy of Finest Hour. I am biased toward Freedom for my own ideology for that very reason.

I went Freedom thinking I would have some company and that I knew my somewhat mediocre army could use the 6 Foreign Legions. Sadly, my opponent had GW bombers and my carriers were not quite ready to get over there before I was forced into declaring. Now I only have 5.

You know if you get the foreign legions and then switch ideologies, you won't miss that one less tenet. I hear the effects of that tenet are still there after you switch.

hmmm...is there a way to find out what my people want? I saw the -31 for Ideology, but I did not find what they wanted me to switch to. My Besties are Autocracy, which is a shame. I was hoping they would be the ones who have the ideological pressure and switch to Freedom. The other continent is all of the Order civs.

cairnsy44 said:

hmmm...is there a way to find out what my people want? I saw the -31 for Ideology, but I did not find what they wanted me to switch to. My Besties are Autocracy, which is a shame. I was hoping they would be the ones who have the ideological pressure and switch to Freedom. The other continent is all of the Order civs.

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hover your cursor over the pressure (content, dissidents etc) and it'll show where the pressure is coming from and the preferred ideology at the bottom. Order civs have a lot of pressure in general because of the combo of level 2 and level 3 tenets each giving +33% tourism

thanks!
I thought my high culture would fend it off....would my closing borders help my cause? Or is it Pandora's Box at this point?

Can you get your culture to exceed 10x their tourism?

tetley said:

Can you get your culture to exceed 10x their tourism?

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That's extremely difficult, it's much easier to get your tourism to exceed 1/10th of their culture to cancel it out.

I was able to recover without switching out of Freedom. amazing what the right ideological tenet can do....

If you want to avoid this in the future make sure you win an early world's fair. Normally I propose that as the first proposal having all the guilds in my capital, and the Hermitage by the time comes to "build" the WF. Sure it's more efficient to win it on say the third, or fourth proposal but by that time ideologies will have been picked.

In my current game, having entered Industrial era, with Raging Barbarians(on), INCR'd.Barb.Spawn, UNL'd.Barb.EXP.; as America, I'm just pumping out Minutemen, cannon, and frigates, to take out my 4 consequential foes; having split Rome in 2; taking 3 of his 5 cities.
Assyria, Arabia, are nearest foes, Carthage to middle south, and Dutch Willy hiding in his jungle vastness, behind the GWall (of course) to the south end of map . Yeah, he got ALL of his jungle tiles inside that damn wall . I've been holding off Rifleing and Industrializing to be able to take Willy, so Idiology hasn't come into play,yet . Have I botched this up?;or should I rush to Idiology ??
With 34 cities, the WFair took me 3 turns to build it; 2nd place Willy spent 437 hammers on it . Now I can finish Honor tree {evil laughter here}.